Don't Be Hurtin' Lin - The Jeremy Lin Thread 2

[bws94]

linisok: Who runs the second team if not Lin? Batum helps when he's in but once Kemba sits, who runs the team? Are you saying Kemba should sit more? He probably will. 2 things. First, Kemba was playing out of his mind so he got a lot of playing time. Then, Clifford is trying to build Kemba/Lin chemistry. Sometimes Lin looks like he struggles with the handle and starting the offense, so keep that in mind if Kemba or someone else is brought in the game. When all is going well and the 2nd unit is clicking and Lin has it organized, he usually is able to run it but sometimes starters are brought back in based on matchups. Basically, if the opponents bring their starters in to deal with the bench, Cliff counters with bringing in his starters to match. Is that always the right thing to do?

[gafun]

Li only has only few minutes to play with 2rd unit as PG these days. But whenever he played as PG, you usually seen positive impact to the TEAM offensive. You can see some teams have to double or triple on him when he attacks the rim. How many minutes you seen he played with Lamb in past 5 games? He and Lamb is #1 two player lineups in the team because Lamb always run space with him and get ready to catch and shoot. In the meantime, Lin is the best top 1 or 2 guard defender and PnR defender in the team, which makes him be in most of top lineups in the team. Top lineups does mean to have the most points, but it has highest net points, which means win.

[bws94]

gafun, I think it is for reasons I stated. During the course of the game, if the 2nd unit is clicking the opponents bring in the first unit and Cliff sometimes counters with the starters. It isn't against Lin, it has to do with what the game is calling for and the Coach's decisions to counter that. Lin sometimes stays on the floor to play defense and space it and provide a 3rd facilitator.

[EwingSweatsALot]

He didn't lose the fire. That's not why he's a backup. He's a backup because Linsanity wasn't a true depiction of what he was as a basketball player. That was never going to be him.

The funny thing is that the people that are complaining Lin is a nobody are more than likely the real nobody's. This guy has made millions upon millions of dollars from basketball to endorsements. Plays in the best basketball league in the world, a focal point of a 2nd place team, but he's a nobody?

I guess he should just go be the best calligrapher around and do wedding invitations for the rest of his life. More people would know him. I mean ****. Better than being a multi millionaire NBA "nobody".

He could start for a losing team. But seems Lin would rather win or have a chance to win. There are guys starting on this team that get less playing time than Lin and don't close as many games. I don't know what some people want. Lin is on a new team and seems to be getting progressively more usage where I sit. Maybe I'm missing something. And Lin's shot hasn't even started to fall for him yet. He left his shot in preseason.

Lin may be that X factor guy, catches fire when needed like OT of the Kings game. He looked pretty fired up that game, but not as much as Marvin Williams did for him, lol.

Ewing i disagree in regards to the fire part, for the multitude of reasons i've likely ranted on over the past coupla months. Also using your calligrapher example to show you how wrong you are. If Lin, or anyone really, was one of THE BEST Wedding calligraphers around he'd make alot of money and get plenty fame in that field. Remember just because YOU or your culture doesnt give 2 craps about calligraphy doesnt mean the rest of the people in the world out there dont. And for Asian's that's actually pretty damn respectable job field, with deep cultural undertones and sophistication. That ace calligrapher in Asian circles would be alot more respected than a bench NBA player, despite his yearly income was lower.

BWS, i hope your right and that things will eventually get better. Despite the invective i constantly sling at Lin i still dearly want him to succeed. I guess for me the real litmus test is when Lin's shot starts falling will he be treated differently or not. It's gonna be real interesting to see how Cliff is gonna square that one when the time comes.

Ok so what if he made the best toilet paper rolls around. I view that as a hell of a job because I like to make sure my **** isn't raw after I eat 15 XxX BBQ chicken wings and proceed to **** 3 times in a span of 4 hours. Would that be respectable?

All I'm saying is, the guy is one of the top 150 players in quite possible the second most popular spot in the world. A sport almost everyone plays and he is in the top 99.9% of the people. But he's a failure. Doesn't make any sense. I don't care how you frame it.

[Roy Tarpley]

Eh, success is relative. Lin, compared to 99.9% of the population, is successful because there are only ~500 NBA players. Lin, compared to the ~500 NBA players, is average based on his stats (e.g., PER). Lin today, compared to Linsanity, is worse in some areas (minutes, points, usage, popularity, attention) but better in others (e.g., defense, fundamentals). Lin, compared to where he thinks he can be and where most of his fans think he can be, is probably underperforming. Most of his fans don't see him as the superstar of Linsanity. They see him as someone who, if given 32 minutes/game and primary PG duties, could average 17 pts, 7 asts, 44% FG, 80% FT, 35% 3PT, good defense, and clutch playmaking. I think Lin, based on his recent comments about how Cliff uses him, also thinks he could deliver as much, but recognizes his current role as a backup PG. Even as a backup, my guess is he probably thinks he's still underperforming somewhat based on his poor shooting.

[bws94]

Roy, does Lin have a starting PG's handle and can he run the offense effectively as the starting PG without another facilitator by his side? That's a question I ask myself when I watch him. Sometimes he looks like he can, but sometimes it looks like if the pressure comes, he struggles. I agree that Lin is quite clutch. That was recognized by MasterIchiro in the quarter year ratings thread. Yes, Lin in some ways is underperforming based on what he can do but in the role that he plays for the Hornets, he's being progressively integrated and more of his game can hopefully come out. And if that can make the difference to win 4 or more games, then it is worth integrating him. But it has to be worth it to the team.

I think we'll relax when his shots start falling. That opens up his penetration game, that half crossover semi-stepback jumper move he does and some passing opportunities. Then some key numbers, PPG, and such can go up. Assists will have to be shared with others on the team, with Batum perhaps leading.

I'll say this about Lin's assists. With Batum, the player gets a chance to see the ball and they are from a decent distance. With Lin, the players see him driving and weaving and suddenly, sometimes from a short distance, the ball is in their hands. They aren't quite ready and spend time just catching and securing it and shooting it and sometimes miss makeable shots as they take them. Once they get used to being prepared for a Lin short feed, they may start making more shots so he gets more assists.

[fatlever]

If NBA every player was judged against their best 2-week span in their career, there would be nothing but disappointment for everyone. Do you know how many guys have had their own versions of statistical "purple patches" only to come back to being a level of player below that moment?

[EwingSweatsALot]

Eh, success is relative. Lin, compared to 99.9% of the population, is successful because there are only ~500 NBA players. Lin, compared to the ~500 NBA players, is average based on his stats (e.g., PER). Lin today, compared to Linsanity, is worse in some areas (minutes, points, usage, popularity, attention) but better in others (e.g., defense, fundamentals). Lin, compared to where he thinks he can be and where most of his fans think he can be, is probably underperforming. Most of his fans don't see him as the superstar of Linsanity. They see him as someone who, if given 32 minutes/game and primary PG duties, could average 17 pts, 7 asts, 44% FG, 80% FT, 35% 3PT, good defense, and clutch playmaking. I think Lin, based on his recent comments about how Cliff uses him, also thinks he could deliver as much, but recognizes his current role as a backup PG. Even as a backup, my guess is he probably thinks he's still underperforming somewhat based on his poor shooting.

Relative matters in a sense, but not if you are calling the guy a failure so nobody cares about him. So he's an average NBA player so far this season. He's still one of the best players in the world, but not in the NBA so he's a failure? Would he be viewed better by people if he went to Greece and won a championship an MVP and had a 26/11 season? Is that really better? Would he be looked upon better because he was the best in a lower level of the game? I mean relatively then he's better than in the NBA right? I mean people would be more pumped about this guy dominating Greece then being a focal point on a really good NBA team? That's how it works?

[Vae Victus]

Ok so what if he made the best toilet paper rolls around. I view that as a hell of a job because I like to make sure my **** isn't raw after I eat 15 XxX BBQ chicken wings and proceed to **** 3 times in a span of 4 hours. Would that be respectable?

All I'm saying is, the guy is one of the top 150 players in quite possible the second most popular spot in the world. A sport almost everyone plays and he is in the top 99.9% of the people. But he's a failure. Doesn't make any sense. I don't care how you frame it.

Why sir, if Lin made the goddamn best toilet paper in the world, i'd daresay he'd be a billionaire and we'd all be singing his praises for giving us some fine quality butt wipings. I say this without sarcasm due to having lived in some not too modern places where TP is something you bring with you otherwise you'll be using newspaper and old magazines to wipe your ass if you're lucky!

Eh, success is relative. Lin, compared to 99.9% of the population, is successful because there are only ~500 NBA players. Lin, compared to the ~500 NBA players, is average based on his stats (e.g., PER). Lin today, compared to Linsanity, is worse in some areas (minutes, points, usage, popularity, attention) but better in others (e.g., defense, fundamentals). Lin, compared to where he thinks he can be and where most of his fans think he can be, is probably underperforming. Most of his fans don't see him as the superstar of Linsanity. They see him as someone who, if given 32 minutes/game and primary PG duties, could average 17 pts, 7 asts, 44% FG, 80% FT, 35% 3PT, good defense, and clutch playmaking. I think Lin, based on his recent comments about how Cliff uses him, also thinks he could deliver as much, but recognizes his current role as a backup PG. Even as a backup, my guess is he probably thinks he's still underperforming somewhat based on his poor shooting.

Relative matters in a sense, but not if you are calling the guy a failure so nobody cares about him. So he's an average NBA player so far this season. He's still one of the best players in the world, but not in the NBA so he's a failure? Would he be viewed better by people if he went to Greece and won a championship an MVP and had a 26/11 season? Is that really better? Would he be looked upon better because he was the best in a lower level of the game? I mean relatively then he's better than in the NBA right? I mean people would be more pumped about this guy dominating Greece then being a focal point on a really good NBA team? That's how it works?

Actually if he went to a high level Euro league and straight up dominated as the focal point superstar, then yes, he'd be looked upon quite highly especially compared to where he is now. We see it all the time with imports who we think can come in and be a high impact player right off the bat. Hell look at a player like Goran Dragic who Lin shares very similar career trajectory. He went to Slovenia national team and was "the man" dominating the ball and playing really well and impressed NBA teams enough to trust him with more offensive duties/opportunities and look where he's at now. Max contract with the Heat (sure as hell wasnt worth it, but he got paid).

This is what burns me the most about the treatment of Lin. Really, are players like Dragic, Lawson, Beverly, Vasquez, freaking AUSTIN RIVERS better than Lin?!?

[steady]

If NBA every player was judged against their best 2-week span in their career, there would be nothing but disappointment for everyone. Do you know how many guys have had their own versions of statistical "purple patches" only to come back to being a level of player below that moment?

Not because I disagree with what you are saying, but because it always irks me when people refer to "2 weeks" like Lin just stopped playing after the 7 game win streak ended ...

Feb 4 - Nets game - Lin's breakout game
Feb 16 - last game in Knicks 7 game win streak

March 15 - D'Antoni resigned as coach

April 1 - Lin's knee surgery was announced

Lin started for Knicks for almost 2 months - 25 games total. Even counting 10 other games when he was playing spot minutes off the bench, his averages per game for the Knicks that year were:
14.6 points, 6.2 assists, 3.1 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. (Yeah, and also 3.6 TOs )

Knicks were prepared to pay him well over the $25 million/3 yrs he got from Houston to keep him. It is just that the poison pill put them in crazy territory in terms of the luxury tax bill.


He was not some 2 week wonder.

[gafun]

Let me make a simple evaluation for Lin's value - would Clifford let Lin close out most of close games if Lin was not the top 5 in the team? 4 close games Hornets lost , Walker missed buzzer shots in two games (vs ATL) and Lin did not close games in the other two (Cavs and Knicks?). He almost closed all other close games and won all (almost?) all. Remember, we had only 2? big loss games, but we have more big win games which Lin's closing game services were less needed.

[TinmanZBoy]

I am calling for a psychologist in this thread, i am super confused...

[Teddyb]

Roy, does Lin have a starting PG's handle and can he run the offense effectively as the starting PG without another facilitator by his side? That's a question I ask myself when I watch him. Sometimes he looks like he can, but sometimes it looks like if the pressure comes, he struggles. I agree that Lin is quite clutch. That was recognized by MasterIchiro in the quarter year ratings thread. Yes, Lin in some ways is underperforming based on what he can do but in the role that he plays for the Hornets, he's being progressively integrated and more of his game can hopefully come out. And if that can make the difference to win 4 or more games, then it is worth integrating him. But it has to be worth it to the team.

I think we'll relax when his shots start falling. That opens up his penetration game, that half crossover semi-stepback jumper move he does and some passing opportunities. Then some key numbers, PPG, and such can go up. Assists will have to be shared with others on the team, with Batum perhaps leading.

I'll say this about Lin's assists. With Batum, the player gets a chance to see the ball and they are from a decent distance. With Lin, the players see him driving and weaving and suddenly, sometimes from a short distance, the ball is in their hands. They aren't quite ready and spend time just catching and securing it and shooting it and sometimes miss makeable shots as they take them. Once they get used to being prepared for a Lin short feed, they may start making more shots so he gets more assists.

Last game he had 2 at the rim assists that they missed.....youre right about this...his shot needs to fall soon

[cw3k]

If NBA every player was judged against their best 2-week span in their career, there would be nothing but disappointment for everyone. Do you know how many guys have had their own versions of statistical "purple patches" only to come back to being a level of player below that moment?

Not because I disagree with what you are saying, but because it always irks me when people refer to "2 weeks" like Lin just stopped playing after the 7 game win streak ended ...

Feb 4 - Nets game - Lin's breakout game
Feb 16 - last game in Knicks 7 game win streak

March 15 - D'Antoni resigned as coach

April 1 - Lin's knee surgery was announced

Lin started for Knicks for almost 2 months - 25 games total. Even counting 10 other games when he was playing spot minutes off the bench, his averages per game for the Knicks that year were:
14.6 points, 6.2 assists, 3.1 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. (Yeah, and also 3.6 TOs )

Knicks were prepared to pay him well over the $25 million/3 yrs he got from Houston to keep him. It is just that the poison pill put them in crazy territory in terms of the luxury tax bill.


He was not some 2 week wonder.

Nah, Knicks was never prepare to pay him. Knicks never made an offer to Lin. This probably come from Melo. No one shine play along side with Melo.

What the Knicks should have been done is offer him 5m/yr for 3 years on day one and they could have seal the deal. Lin already stated he wanted to stay with the Knicks.

[TTNN]

linisok: Who runs the second team if not Lin? Batum helps when he's in but once Kemba sits, who runs the team? Are you saying Kemba should sit more? He probably will. 2 things. First, Kemba was playing out of his mind so he got a lot of playing time. Then, Clifford is trying to build Kemba/Lin chemistry. Sometimes Lin looks like he struggles with the handle and starting the offense, so keep that in mind if Kemba or someone else is brought in the game. When all is going well and the 2nd unit is clicking and Lin has it organized, he usually is able to run it but sometimes starters are brought back in based on matchups. Basically, if the opponents bring their starters in to deal with the bench, Cliff counters with bringing in his starters to match. Is that always the right thing to do?

When Kemba is playing with starter unit, he had 22% USG rate, and that jumped to 32.9% when he is playing in the second team.

When Lin is running the second team, (that is he is playing with Lamb without Kemba and Batum on the floor with him), the second team is shooting at 47.4% FG%, and with 65% of shots assisted, that's pretty good efficiency and ball movement. And the second team is out score opponents 13 points per 100 possession.

When Kemba is playing with the second team, the second team is shooting at 38% FG% and with only 43% shot assisted, and is not able to out score their opponents.

I don't think asking for Lin to run that second team is unreasonable. Even when Kemba is playing out of his mind now. He was very efficient playing in that 2nd team, with 53% 2FG% and 37.5% 3FG, you could not asking for more. But, I think we should look at the team performance instead of individual performance here.

I'm not against Kemba playing with second team, or Lin play together with Kemba, you can't not play Kemba when he is this good. But, I do hope Kemba change his playing style when he is playing with the second team, that 32.9% USG and his 75% shot not assisted is a little too much there.

[steady]

(I clearly have too much free time on my hands today.)

Per 36 minutes, Lin's Knicks numbers over his 35 games played for them, 25 as starting PG, were:

19.6 points
8.3 assists
4.1 rebounds
2.1 steals
(4.8 TOs!)

I had forgotten they were that good.

[bws94]

I think those Linsanity weeks Lin was looking for his shot more. In fact, so much of the time Lin just got the ball he looked to drive it and finish. He took in the high teen shot attempts and low 20s in some games. But starting with Woodson, Lin took fewer shots and tried to be more PG.

I think Lin plays better working from his shot, if his 3 doesn't fall I think he should perfect the mid-range where he has it as reliable as Chris Paul's. Can't always get to the rim, they are looking for him now. Lin's shot attempts are often fairly lowish I think. That's OK if he's getting to the line, means he's putting them up and getting fouled. But if he isn't much, then I think he helps the team by being that scoring threat and opens his game to pass. I think the preseason he looked of his shot more, and hit a lot of them.

But today's Lin still isn't that Lin that broke out in Linsanity. Despite the perfect storm, he was a much more consistently aggressive scorer taking it to the rack. Now he looks to dish taking it to the rack more often than not or circles under the rim.

[lin is ok]

U guys talk about batum triple double? Nice? U know lin managed to triple double from the bench eith the rockets? Not many have acheived that feat in the nba.

[lin is ok]

If lin is to pkay a role player type , i rather he start, if not let let him rin the 2nd unit. See what happens.

[fatlever]

If NBA every player was judged against their best 2-week span in their career, there would be nothing but disappointment for everyone. Do you know how many guys have had their own versions of statistical "purple patches" only to come back to being a level of player below that moment?

Not because I disagree with what you are saying, but because it always irks me when people refer to "2 weeks" like Lin just stopped playing after the 7 game win streak ended ...

Feb 4 - Nets game - Lin's breakout game
Feb 16 - last game in Knicks 7 game win streak

March 15 - D'Antoni resigned as coach

April 1 - Lin's knee surgery was announced

Lin started for Knicks for almost 2 months - 25 games total. Even counting 10 other games when he was playing spot minutes off the bench, his averages per game for the Knicks that year were:
14.6 points, 6.2 assists, 3.1 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. (Yeah, and also 3.6 TOs )

Knicks were prepared to pay him well over the $25 million/3 yrs he got from Houston to keep him. It is just that the poison pill put them in crazy territory in terms of the luxury tax bill.


He was not some 2 week wonder.

I definitely was not suggesting he was a two week wonder. That's not at all what my post is about. You can pick the time frame - one game, two weeks, two months, one year etc... the point remains the same. If players were always judged against their best run as a pro, then every player would have a disappointed fan base.