Fat's PG Rankings (2/3/2014 update pg 8)

Post #121 » by **fatlever** » Mon Feb 3, 2014 10:24 pm

i started working on all-time rankings a few weeks ago, but i got derailed by a few logic bombs

1) should i limit the rankings to more recent players like 1980+ or Post ABA+. if so, do i count the years a player had prior to those cut-offs, such as tiny archibald who was good for most of the 70s, pre and post ABA merger. i figured i should try to rank the players i never saw play or even came close to seeing play - like bob cousy.

2) should i rank based on career accomplishments or rank based on a peak? if i rank based on a peak, how long of a peak should i use? i was thinking about a 4-5 year peak as the basis for my rankings. or a hybrid of career accomplishments vs a great peak. someone like penny hardaway or gilbert arenas had great peaks, but they were short-lived. whereas someone like derek harper or terry porter were consistently decent for a long time. which is more impressive?

3) a few players were hard to define as a pg or sg, such as sidney moncrief, fat lever, reggie theus, sleepy floyd or paul westphal. the 70s and 80s had a lot of guys that were just guards. some years they played more as a pg, some years they played more as a sg, depended on their teammates.

thoughts?

LamarMatic7 · Post #122 » by **LamarMatic7** » Tue Feb 4, 2014 12:14 pm

players whose places I'd switch in your current ranking.

Conley with Lawson, Irving with Bledsoe (I acknowledge his injury as a reason though), Isaiah with Kemba, Rubio with Lin.

DJ Augustin and Kendall Marshall are tough to rank. It's hard to predict for how long both DJ and Kendall will keep this up and the whole situation with the injuries on their team is too wacky.

LamarMatic7 · Post #123 » by **LamarMatic7** » Tue Feb 4, 2014 12:25 pm

fatlever wrote:i started working on all-time rankings a few weeks ago, but i got derailed by a few logic bombs

1) should i limit the rankings to more recent players like 1980+ or Post ABA+. if so, do i count the years a player had prior to those cut-offs, such as tiny archibald who was good for most of the 70s, pre and post ABA merger. i figured i should try to rank the players i never saw play or even came close to seeing play - like bob cousy.

2) should i rank based on career accomplishments or rank based on a peak? if i rank based on a peak, how long of a peak should i use? i was thinking about a 4-5 year peak as the basis for my rankings. or a hybrid of career accomplishments vs a great peak. someone like penny hardaway or gilbert arenas had great peaks, but they were short-lived. whereas someone like derek harper or terry porter were consistently decent for a long time. which is more impressive?

3) a few players were hard to define as a pg or sg, such as sidney moncrief, fat lever, reggie theus, sleepy floyd or paul westphal. the 70s and 80s had a lot of guys that were just guards. some years they played more as a pg, some years they played more as a sg, depended on their teammates.

thoughts?

1) that's a good question. it definitely should be point guards since the merger or even the invention of the 3-point line (the 80s guards still would be tough to compare because of their lack of a long range shot, can you really hold it against Isiah, per example?) but whether you should count their seasons before the cut-off point... I don't know. how many of these problematic guys really are there? Archibald, Maravich, Kevin Porter... tough decision.

2) whenever I try to present a player's peak (per example, for our scavenger hunts) I just go for whatever looks the sexiest. if some certain five-year stretch is just that good I pointed it out. if the 11-year longevity looks cool and there isn't a huge drop-off from the 5 best years of those 11, then I went with the longer span. Penny vs. someone like Terry Porter is definitely advantage Hardaway, in my opinion. I'd rather have a few excellent Penny years. it starts to be a factor when you compare him to other all-stars. all-stars who had longer careers.

3) that's a tough one. many teams did have those two capable back-court guys who kind of ran the point by committee. Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson at Seattle, Sidney Moncrief and Paul Pressey at Milwaukee. tough to leave any of those four out, per example. not sure about Reggie Theus though. from what I've seen, he mostly received the ball in the mid-range coming off screens. I guess to be eligible for this ranking you should be a guard who brought the ball up the court (or at least regularly shared those duties).

very excited for what you will come up with.

ball teacher · Post #124 » by **ball teacher** » Tue Feb 4, 2014 12:26 pm

I'd have to put Lowry higher on my list, maybe put Dragic in my top 10, and Marshall might be in the mid 20's as he's a true PG with great height for the position and real PG abilities. That shot though... Marshall actually reminds me of Jason Kidd.

LamarMatic7 · Post #125 » by **LamarMatic7** » Tue Feb 4, 2014 12:32 pm

ball teacher wrote:I'd have to put Lowry higher on my list, maybe put Dragic in my top 10, and Marshall might be in the mid 20's as he's a true PG with great height for the position and real PG abilities. That shot though... Marshall actually reminds me of Jason Kidd.

check page 8 for the latest update. Lowry and Dragic are quote high.

Post #126 » by **fatlever** » Tue Feb 4, 2014 4:21 pm

LamarMatic7 wrote:players whose places I'd switch in your current ranking.

Conley with Lawson, Irving with Bledsoe (I acknowledge his injury as a reason though), Isaiah with Kemba, Rubio with Lin.

DJ Augustin and Kendall Marshall are tough to rank. It's hard to predict for how long both DJ and Kendall will keep this up and the whole situation with the injuries on their team is too wacky.

i originally moved conley ahead of lawson, but revised it at the last minute. lawson had a really good january and conley is hurt currently.

Post #127 » by **fatlever** » Tue Feb 4, 2014 4:22 pm

LamarMatic7 wrote:
ball teacher wrote:I'd have to put Lowry higher on my list, maybe put Dragic in my top 10, and Marshall might be in the mid 20's as he's a true PG with great height for the position and real PG abilities. That shot though... Marshall actually reminds me of Jason Kidd.

check page 8 for the latest update. Lowry and Dragic are quote high.

thanks lamar, you beat me to it. i was confused then figured BT must be looking at the page 5 rankings, not page 8. i was very kind to both lowry and dragic.

Post #128 » by **fatlever** » Tue Feb 4, 2014 4:25 pm

fatlever wrote:New Update as of 2/3/14.

1 Chris Paul - Holding #1 spot despite injury
2 Steph Curry - Assists are way up, so are turnovers.
3 Tony Parker - Still playing at 75%.
4 John Wall - Huge ranking jump compared to last year
5 Russell Westbrook - Dropped to #5 while injured
6 Goran Dragic - Up 5 spots since December and on FIRE!!!
7 Ty Lawson - Avg 11 assists in January
8 Mike Conley - Also out with rolled ankle. So many injuries to PGs this year.
9 Kyle Lowry - Up 8 spots since December, should have been an All-Star.
10 Rajon Rondo - Inserted back at #10 until we see more evidence of where he is post injury.
11 Damian Lillard - Cooling off after hot start
12 Kyrie Irving - Will keep dropping as long as his team appears so disfunctional. Where is the leadership?
13 Eric Bledsoe - Drops 3 spots since injury. Doubt he will get starting PG spot from Dragic any time soon.
14 Isaiah Thomas - Halfway thru season, still has a PER at 21
15 Kemba Walker - Out injured for 1st time ever. Interesting to see how he responds once he returns.
16 Jeff Teague - Had a miserable January compared to his early season - 13ppg, 4.6apg, 37%FG
17 Jrue Holiday - Out injured, who cares?
18 Deron Williams - It’s a slow climb back to being relevant. Regaining starting job would help.
19 Michael Carter-Williams - Must improve shot selection and FG%
20 Ricky Rubio - Invisible when games are on the line. He needs to solve that problem.
21 Jeremy Lin - Coming off a triple-double with Harden out. Always better when ball is in his hands.
22 Trey Burke - Can't go much higher until he gets that FG% figured out.
23 Brandon Jennings - His style of play never leads to wins.
24 George Hill - Lost playmaking duties to Lance, now just plays defense and spots up for 3.
25 Jose Calderon - Shot 51% in December and 41% in January.
26 Reggie Jackson - Solid as a starter, still best role is 6th man.
27 Brandon Knight - Back from the dead.
28 Kendall Marshall - Another D'Antoni product? Seems to be a perfect fit for that offense.
29 Jameer Nelson - How is this guy still starting in the NBA? Time for his 2nd career as a great backup.
30 Mario Chalmers - Career high in PER this year.
31 Ramon Sessions - Much more willing passer as a starter than as a reserve.
32 DJ Augustin - Playing like a 1st round pick for the first time in 3 years. Confidence is back.
33 Greivis Vasquez - Not as big of a role in Toronto, but can still shoot and pass.
34 Darren Collison - Has been decent in Paul's absence. Good PER.
35 Shaun Livingston - Just happy to see him still playing at this level.

Just missed the cut - Jordan Crawford, Jarrett Jack, Patrick Beverly, Andre Miller, Raymond Felton, Steve Blake, Tony Wroten, Mo Williams, Norris Cole

Not ranked due to injury - Derrick Rose, Nate Robinson

here you go BT

Post #129 » by **fatlever** » Sat Feb 8, 2014 5:58 pm

maybe i should have had george hill rated higher. he has been sandbagging us all season. dude looked fantastic last night (except trying to guard matthews in the 4th).

Post #130 » by **fatlever** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:30 pm

Fat's Center Rankings as of 3-31-14

quick top 20 for centers based on current form. i left brook lopez out since he barely played this year and no clue how he will look after returning from yet another foot injury. also, tough to rank more than 20 centers. after the top 15 guys and top backups there are too many changes to depth charts and playing time. so many of the bottom half centers are in and out of lineups due to injuries and performance or splitting time with another center or getting benched in favor of a small ball lineups. i also left pao gasol out for right now. its too hard to get a read on where he is as a player due to injuries, dantoni and tanking. he is probably still top 10 when healthy and playing.

normally marc gasol would be my #1 center. he is everything i would want in a center. but due to injuries and a slow start and moved him to #2. howard obviously has all the stats, but i still don't know if what he does translates to wins better than noah and marc gasol.

Joakim Noah
Marc Gasol
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Al Horford
Roy Hibbert
Al Jefferson
DeMarcus Cousins
Andre Drummond
Nikola Pekovic
Andrew Bogut
DeAndre Jordan
Nikola Vucevic
Marcin Gortat
Jonas Valanciunas
Enes Kanter
Omer Asik
Anderson Varejao
Robin Lopez
Spencer Hawes

mrknowitall215 · Post #131 » by **mrknowitall215** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:57 pm

It's a honor seeing you list Joakim Noah as the top center in the league since he's been my favorite big man for years. I might argue if we're referring to him being the best center, but I wouldn't argue with him being the best center to play along with as a teammate

LamarMatic7 · Post #132 » by **LamarMatic7** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:15 pm

hard to argue with that list. Only things I thought of are that Andy Varejao is too often injured for my liking, you would rather go with a full season of Robin Lopez definitely, and that I don't value Pekovic's scoring as much as Bogut's defense and DeAndre's over-whelming athleticism. Maybe I just can't get that 60mil contract out of my head and not associate it with him.

How is it going with that all-time PG list, Fats?

Post #133 » by **fatlever** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:16 pm

mrknowitall215 wrote:It's a honor seeing you list Joakim Noah as the top center in the league since he's been my favorite big man for years. I might argue if we're referring to him being the best center, but I wouldn't argue with him being the best center to play along with as a teammate

noah and gasol just perfectly fit exactly what i would look for in a center if i was a gm building a team. ideally i want my center to be defense first, unselfish, high bball iq and all about chemistry and winning over everything.

mrknowitall215 · Post #134 » by **mrknowitall215** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:31 pm

fatlever wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:It's a honor seeing you list Joakim Noah as the top center in the league since he's been my favorite big man for years. I might argue if we're referring to him being the best center, but I wouldn't argue with him being the best center to play along with as a teammate

noah and gasol just perfectly fit exactly what i would look for in a center if i was a gm building a team. ideally i want my center to be defense first, unselfish, high bball iq and all about chemistry and winning over everything.

It worked for Bill Russell as Wilt Chamberlain broke all types of scoring records. I believe a defensive center is more important than a offensive center, but it's a debatable matter where a team would need a bit of both aspects, just my personal preference

Post #135 » by **JDR720** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:36 pm

It all depends on the team whether you need an offensive or defensive center, a team like us we need an offensive center, a team like the Heat needs a defensive center

HornetJail · Post #136 » by **HornetJail** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:59 pm

fatlever wrote:Fat's Center Rankings as of 3-31-14

quick top 20 for centers based on current form. i left brook lopez out since he barely played this year and no clue how he will look after returning from yet another foot injury. also, tough to rank more than 20 centers. after the top 15 guys and top backups there are too many changes to depth charts and playing time. so many of the bottom half centers are in and out of lineups due to injuries and performance or splitting time with another center or getting benched in favor of a small ball lineups. i also left pao gasol out for right now. its too hard to get a read on where he is as a player due to injuries, dantoni and tanking. he is probably still top 10 when healthy and playing.

normally marc gasol would be my #1 center. he is everything i would want in a center. but due to injuries and a slow start and moved him to #2. howard obviously has all the stats, but i still don't know if what he does translates to wins better than noah and marc gasol.

Joakim Noah
Marc Gasol
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Al Horford
Roy Hibbert
Al Jefferson
DeMarcus Cousins
Andre Drummond
Nikola Pekovic
Andrew Bogut
DeAndre Jordan
Nikola Vucevic
Marcin Gortat
Jonas Valanciunas
Enes Kanter
Omer Asik
Anderson Varejao
Robin Lopez
Spencer Hawes

Not bad....

but I definitely don't see Gasol over Howard. Nor do I see Hibbert over Big Al, Cousins, or Drummond. Hibbert has been awful this year. The defense is great, don't get me wrong, but I definitely see him as a system player. Post-ASW he's averaging 9.6/5.0. Other than that, I'd take Deandre Jordan over Pek for sure, everyone on this list over Valanciunas, and bump up Robin Lopez to where Gortat is. Also why is Al Horford on the list and Brook Lopez isn't? Both are out for the season.

Post #137 » by **fatlever** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:23 pm

LamarMatic7 wrote:hard to argue with that list. Only things I thought of are that Andy Varejao is too often injured for my liking, you would rather go with a full season of Robin Lopez definitely, and that I don't value Pekovic's scoring as much as Bogut's defense and DeAndre's over-whelming athleticism. Maybe I just can't get that 60mil contract out of my head and not associate it with him.

How is it going with that all-time PG list, Fats?

funny you bring up that 3 man section of pekovic, bogut and jordan. i originally had pekovic at the bottom of that list and moved him up at the end. thats probably a situation that purely comes down to team needs, as all three are so different in terms of what they bring. perhaps its only fair to give the nod to the two guys who are anchoring playoff teams.

i am a huge varejao fan when he plays healthy (which is never).

Post #138 » by **fatlever** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:26 pm

LamarMatic7 wrote:How is it going with that all-time PG list, Fats?

oh yeah... i need to get back to that. i got discouraged and quit because i couldnt decided between handling great short peaks vs steady longevity - ie arenas/penny vs harper/porter. probably will settle on 4-year peak with nod to longevity when all things are equal.

Post #139 » by **fatlever** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:31 pm

Biz Gilwalker wrote: Also why is Al Horford on the list and Brook Lopez isn't? Both are out for the season.

i figure horford will definitely come back as the same great player since his injury was not foot/knee related. lopez on the other hand is dealing with another devastating foot injury. i'm starting to think he'll never be the same player. so it was too hard for me to rank lopez because i just dont know what he'll be when he returns. based on his early season form however, he'd probably have been somewhere between horford and drummond.

BeesWax · Post #140 » by **BeesWax** » Tue Apr 1, 2014 12:54 pm

fatlever wrote:Fat's Center Rankings as of 3-31-14

quick top 20 for centers based on current form. i left brook lopez out since he barely played this year and no clue how he will look after returning from yet another foot injury. also, tough to rank more than 20 centers. after the top 15 guys and top backups there are too many changes to depth charts and playing time. so many of the bottom half centers are in and out of lineups due to injuries and performance or splitting time with another center or getting benched in favor of a small ball lineups. i also left pao gasol out for right now. its too hard to get a read on where he is as a player due to injuries, dantoni and tanking. he is probably still top 10 when healthy and playing.

normally marc gasol would be my #1 center. he is everything i would want in a center. but due to injuries and a slow start and moved him to #2. howard obviously has all the stats, but i still don't know if what he does translates to wins better than noah and marc gasol.

Joakim Noah
Marc Gasol
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Al Horford
Roy Hibbert
Al Jefferson
DeMarcus Cousins
Andre Drummond
Nikola Pekovic
Andrew Bogut
DeAndre Jordan
Nikola Vucevic
Marcin Gortat
Jonas Valanciunas
Enes Kanter
Omer Asik
Anderson Varejao
Robin Lopez
Spencer Hawes

I would have put Favors on my list somewhere around the Bogut range. Other than that I think this is about spot on. As on offensive force both Jefferson and Cousins could be higher but lack of defense hurts one and lack of brains hurts the other.