GT: Hornets vs Sixers Sun Nov 10 7pm

[JMAC3]

LaMelo is probably doing better purely on 28+' 3 pointers minus heaves than the offense is doing on its own without him on the floor lol

Salaun/Green/Martin/Mann/Curry combined for 2-18 from 3. LaMelo shot 6-18 from 3, on way harder shots than them including the game tying 3. Miller took 11 and Grant took 7, which is plenty volume for both of them, in fact more than they can handle most nights. I dunno what the answer it but it certainly isn't encouraging any of these guys to take more mid range shots, and we have no players that can execute paint offense. This is just the reality of our talent without Miles/Mark. Theres no exceptionally talented offensive players being held back here because LaMelo is taking shots.

The fact that there are 8 teams worse than us in ORTG with the dearth of offensive talent on our team compounded by injury is a testament to this dudes ability

There is a difference in saying the offense is bad and saying who is taking the shots is bad. I am more than fine with LaMelo, Brandon and Grant getting the majority of shots right now, but my point is the looks aren't good because we aren't forcing defense to rotate, we aren't getting paint touches, we aren't operating out of the single side enough. Everything is top of the floor and most are not wide open looks, I want more movement, more open looks, more passes.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/ball-handler?dir=D&sort=PTS
We are #1 in scoring off PnR ball handler

Dead last in scoring off cuts and post ups.
Near the bottom on handoffs and spots ups as well.

We are 1 dimensional, I don't get how some can watch this and say that is good basketball.

We rank 25th in passes per game.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/passing?dir=D&sort=PASSES_MADE

we rank 21st in paint touches.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/touches?dir=D&sort=PAINT_TOUCHES

Shooting the 5th most pull up shots.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/pullup?dir=D&sort=PULL_UP_FGA

Lemme know whos supposed to be getting those paint touches. Im assuming the key to a more dynamic offense surely doesn't lie in feeding Taj and Diabate. I would also enjoy having someone in the paint that could score the ball. We don't have it. i mean aesthetically it would be nice to have a big Al in the paint doing his Hakeem impersonation at 48%, sad thing is that doesnt actually lead to any better offense than LaMelo and Miller yeeting 3s at 38%. Neither does giving cut attempts to Josh Green who has 0 layup package.

A lot of this would be better if Miles didnt appear to be washed untl that last game, we'll see

Paint touches are when a player touches the paint either by a drive, pass, post up etc.... so it doesn't have anything to do with your front court. Best way to get that up is to get the ball moving side to side and get the defense in rotation and closing out... something we do at a very low rate because we are so vanilla.

[KembaWalker]

There is a difference in saying the offense is bad and saying who is taking the shots is bad. I am more than fine with LaMelo, Brandon and Grant getting the majority of shots right now, but my point is the looks aren't good because we aren't forcing defense to rotate, we aren't getting paint touches, we aren't operating out of the single side enough. Everything is top of the floor and most are not wide open looks, I want more movement, more open looks, more passes.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/ball-handler?dir=D&sort=PTS
We are #1 in scoring off PnR ball handler

Dead last in scoring off cuts and post ups.
Near the bottom on handoffs and spots ups as well.

We are 1 dimensional, I don't get how some can watch this and say that is good basketball.

We rank 25th in passes per game.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/passing?dir=D&sort=PASSES_MADE

we rank 21st in paint touches.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/touches?dir=D&sort=PAINT_TOUCHES

Shooting the 5th most pull up shots.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/pullup?dir=D&sort=PULL_UP_FGA

Lemme know whos supposed to be getting those paint touches. Im assuming the key to a more dynamic offense surely doesn't lie in feeding Taj and Diabate. I would also enjoy having someone in the paint that could score the ball. We don't have it. i mean aesthetically it would be nice to have a big Al in the paint doing his Hakeem impersonation at 48%, sad thing is that doesnt actually lead to any better offense than LaMelo and Miller yeeting 3s at 38%. Neither does giving cut attempts to Josh Green who has 0 layup package.

A lot of this would be better if Miles didnt appear to be washed untl that last game, we'll see

Paint touches are when a player touches the paint either by a drive, pass, post up etc.... so it doesn't have anything to do with your front court. Best way to get that up is to get the ball moving side to side and get the defense in rotation and closing out... something we do at a very low rate because we are so vanilla.

So the offense would be more dynamic if LaMelo and Brandon were driving to the basket more, where they both get garbage whistles and are poor finishers, have no dump off options? Have you not seen them trying to drive and kick? That’s been one of our most turnover generating plays because teams know they don’t have to commit any help and read the kick outs every time. I have no idea who on this team is supposed to have the ball in the paint and expect anything remarkably good to come out of it. We need more offensive talent. Looking at the lines we’re throwing out there to get this 20th ranked offense and blaming the couple good offensive players we have is crazy to me

[yosemiteben]

Lemme know whos supposed to be getting those paint touches. Im assuming the key to a more dynamic offense surely doesn't lie in feeding Taj and Diabate. I would also enjoy having someone in the paint that could score the ball. We don't have it. i mean aesthetically it would be nice to have a big Al in the paint doing his Hakeem impersonation at 48%, sad thing is that doesnt actually lead to any better offense than LaMelo and Miller yeeting 3s at 38%. Neither does giving cut attempts to Josh Green who has 0 layup package.

A lot of this would be better if Miles didnt appear to be washed untl that last game, we'll see

Paint touches are when a player touches the paint either by a drive, pass, post up etc.... so it doesn't have anything to do with your front court. Best way to get that up is to get the ball moving side to side and get the defense in rotation and closing out... something we do at a very low rate because we are so vanilla.

So the offense would be more dynamic if LaMelo and Brandon were driving to the basket more, where they both get garbage whistles and are poor finishers, have no dump off options? Have you not seen them trying to drive and kick? That’s been one of our most turnover generating plays because teams know they don’t have to commit any help and read the kick outs every time. I have no idea who on this team is supposed to have the ball in the paint and expect anything remarkably good to come out of it. We need more offensive talent. Looking at the lines we’re throwing out there to get this 20th ranked offense and blaming the couple good offensive players we have is crazy to me

Seems pretty clear that JMAC is blaming Lee and the system, not the players.

[KembaWalker]

Paint touches are when a player touches the paint either by a drive, pass, post up etc.... so it doesn't have anything to do with your front court. Best way to get that up is to get the ball moving side to side and get the defense in rotation and closing out... something we do at a very low rate because we are so vanilla.

So the offense would be more dynamic if LaMelo and Brandon were driving to the basket more, where they both get garbage whistles and are poor finishers, have no dump off options? Have you not seen them trying to drive and kick? That’s been one of our most turnover generating plays because teams know they don’t have to commit any help and read the kick outs every time. I have no idea who on this team is supposed to have the ball in the paint and expect anything remarkably good to come out of it. We need more offensive talent. Looking at the lines we’re throwing out there to get this 20th ranked offense and blaming the couple good offensive players we have is crazy to me

Seems pretty clear that JMAC is blaming Lee and the system, not the players.

The players are the system we have two good offensive players and a bunch of garbage otherwise or hurt guys. The idea that we’d be better off in some motion offense in anything but pure aesthetics seems unlikely to me. It’s a damned miracle were a 20th ranked offense with this personnel

[SWedd523]

Miller had 22 and had every chance in the world to do anything and he totally **** the bed in the 4th and OT, trying to do stuff his handles aren't good enough for and dumping the ball into Diabetes with 2 seconds on the shot clock in OT. a chance to take a clutch shot like LaMelo did and completely bricked it.

"the boys" i'm not even sure who that is referring to cause I honestly felt like Grant Williams was shooting too much, Salaun/Gibson/Green/Diabate aren't going to give you anything. Mann got himself benched for Curry for whatever reason. who is out here needing more shots than they got last night? try hitting them

yeah it'd be nice if we were running the Spurs Beautiful Game system and the ball was moving around on a string but we don't have that personnel. We're the 2001 Sixers without the defense. half this roster is on cardio duty and the other half are too injured to do cardio or in Micic case, too bad to even do cardio

Yeah I don't exactly care what the personnel is, there's really no excuse for jacking 30 footers with 16 seconds left on the clock regardless of the situation.

I get it's his game. He needs to figure out that not every shot is a good shot because he's calling his and his team's potential when he plays like that

LaMelo is probably doing better purely on 28+' 3 pointers minus heaves than the offense is doing on its own without him on the floor lol

Salaun/Green/Martin/Mann/Curry combined for 2-18 from 3. LaMelo shot 6-18 from 3, on way harder shots than them including the game tying 3. Miller took 11 and Grant took 7, which is plenty volume for both of them, in fact more than they can handle most nights. I dunno what the answer it but it certainly isn't encouraging any of these guys to take more mid range shots, and we have no players that can execute paint offense. This is just the reality of our talent without Miles/Mark. Theres no exceptionally talented offensive players being held back here because LaMelo is taking shots.

The fact that there are 8 teams worse than us in ORTG with the dearth of offensive talent on our team compounded by injury is a testament to this dudes ability

I don't really know what you're trying to argue as it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've said twice now.

There's no arguing that it's smart decision making to come down and heave a random deep three early in the shot clock. He has a propensity to keep firing away at bad or stupid times and he needs to make better decisions. He had a sequence last night where it was something like random early bomb from three, turnover, turnover, random early bomb from three, foul. Right around the time Philly started to walk away with it.

He gets the same way on defense and strings together a foul or three taking him out of the game at crucial moments.

Yeah I get it, he's playing offense with Tiddy and Diabetes, but he's too far into his career to be making rookie mistakes and we should have higher expectations for him.

[yosemiteben]

The players are the system

I think this is the true source of the disagreement.

[KembaWalker]

Yeah I don't exactly care what the personnel is, there's really no excuse for jacking 30 footers with 16 seconds left on the clock regardless of the situation.

I get it's his game. He needs to figure out that not every shot is a good shot because he's calling his and his team's potential when he plays like that

LaMelo is probably doing better purely on 28+' 3 pointers minus heaves than the offense is doing on its own without him on the floor lol

Salaun/Green/Martin/Mann/Curry combined for 2-18 from 3. LaMelo shot 6-18 from 3, on way harder shots than them including the game tying 3. Miller took 11 and Grant took 7, which is plenty volume for both of them, in fact more than they can handle most nights. I dunno what the answer it but it certainly isn't encouraging any of these guys to take more mid range shots, and we have no players that can execute paint offense. This is just the reality of our talent without Miles/Mark. Theres no exceptionally talented offensive players being held back here because LaMelo is taking shots.

The fact that there are 8 teams worse than us in ORTG with the dearth of offensive talent on our team compounded by injury is a testament to this dudes ability

I don't really know what you're trying to argue as it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've said twice now.

There's no arguing that it's smart decision making to come down and heave a random deep three early in the shot clock.

I dunno, sounds like boomer ball to me. I’m sure there are plenty of analysts out there that would say coming down and taking an early 3 point heave for a guy that can hit 3 point heaves at 38% is probably a pretty good possession. There’s a reason our ORTG this season with this trash roster that is playing ugly basketball that everyone hates is the same as the 62 win Spurs of a decade ago that everyone thinks is the prettiest thing ever

You have a shot you can hit, take it. There’s certainly no guarantee of a better one coming just because there’s time on the clock, or one at all with all the turnovers we have.

When we have some more offensive talent I’ll start getting picky maybe, but I really don’t think Josh Green off ball cuts and Taj Gibson post ups are going to do anything to tangibly improve our offense. Now if we could get someone who could draw free throws reliably, now that would be nice

[yosemiteben]

There’s a reason our ORTG this season with this trash roster that is playing ugly basketball that everyone hates is the same as the 62 win Spurs of a decade ago that everyone thinks is the prettiest thing ever

But we're competing against teams today. This seems like a bizarre take to defend the lack of structured offense that is our team. We are a bad offensive team right now, regardless of how efficient we might be compared to a team 10 years ago.

[KembaWalker]

There’s a reason our ORTG this season with this trash roster that is playing ugly basketball that everyone hates is the same as the 62 win Spurs of a decade ago that everyone thinks is the prettiest thing ever

But we're competing against teams today. This seems like a bizarre take to defend the lack of structured offense that is our team. We are a bad offensive team right now, regardless of how efficient we might be compared to a team 10 years ago.

We’re a bad offensive team because we don’t have a lot of offensively talent players, and the ones we do have are redundant in skill set. There is no magical system where this roster is doing any better than it is with what we are doing. This team is basically what Borrego had a few years ago except instead of Rozier/Hayward/PJ/Trez/Oubre/Plumlee Lee instead has a bunch of guys off the scrap heap, a worse version of Bridges, and one good sophomore. And that Borrego team wasn’t even good, but it’s helluva lot more offensive talent than what we’re throwing out there this week

[yosemiteben]

I'm real surprised with the take of "There couldn't possibly be a better system."

You really believe we couldn't possibly improve offensively? We are completely maximizing all of our offensive talent?

I like Lee a lot, but I definitely don't believe that.

We have 6 players shooting 37% or better from 3. I don't think we are an under talented offensive team.

[GoBobs]

I agree with a lot of points different people are making here. LeMelo should really not be the focal point of our offense every play even if he is the best offensive player. Part of that is because he gets worse when dealing with pressure and physical defense. If the defense is responding to another threat and LaMelo gets it on the counter, good night.

He is better as the 2 in a 1,2 punch.

LaMelo is a closer, we need an innings eater that can pressure the basket. Was Miles for a little bit that one season.

The offense is also repetative and uncreative. In a game like last night, you have to establish somebody inside because the other team has no rim defense. Grant Williams can score in the post. Drummond will get in foul trouble and his fat ass can't play the whole game anyway because he gets tired.

They killed us with a bunch of scrubs because we didn't make those guys defend on the other end of the floor. We played down to the level of our competition last night and we let them off the hook on the defensive end of the floor by taking 54 three pt shots out of 95 fg attempts.

On the other hand Lee was the first guy to get the summer league team together in years. It is kind of impressive that we went 14-54 from 3 pt land and almost won. Maybe it is a work in progress and he deserves a little more time.

[KembaWalker]

I'm real surprised with the take of "There couldn't possibly be a better system."

You really believe we couldn't possibly improve offensively? We are completely maximizing all of our offensive talent?

I like Lee a lot, but I definitely don't believe that.

We have 6 players shooting 37% or better from 3. I don't think we are an under talented offensive team.

Who is the talent???? Lmao. I just listed the guys Borrego had to get 43 wins. The idea we should be approaching that teams level of offense with Salaun/Williams/Gibson/Green/Curry/Diabate as the role players is just ridiculous. This is year one of a rebuild from that iteration of the Hornets. Not a competitive team. Mann is a scrap heap player not a Rozier or Hayward. Miller is a sophomore

[yosemiteben]

There’s a reason our ORTG this season with this trash roster that is playing ugly basketball that everyone hates is the same as the 62 win Spurs of a decade ago that everyone thinks is the prettiest thing ever

But we're competing against teams today. This seems like a bizarre take to defend the lack of structured offense that is our team. We are a bad offensive team right now, regardless of how efficient we might be compared to a team 10 years ago.

We’re a bad offensive team because we don’t have a lot of offensively talent players, and the ones we do have are redundant in skill set. There is no magical system where this roster is doing any better than it is with what we are doing. This team is basically what Borrego had a few years ago except instead of Rozier/Hayward/PJ/Trez/Oubre/Plumlee Lee instead has a bunch of guys off the scrap heap, a worse version of Bridges, and one good sophomore. And that Borrego team wasn’t even good, but it’s helluva lot more offensive talent than what we’re throwing out there this week

I very much do not agree that that Borrego team you just listed is more talented offensively than our current team. Even if I did, I still wouldn't believe that a team's offensive system is irrelevant, either at all or below a given talent threshold.

[KembaWalker]

But we're competing against teams today. This seems like a bizarre take to defend the lack of structured offense that is our team. We are a bad offensive team right now, regardless of how efficient we might be compared to a team 10 years ago.

We’re a bad offensive team because we don’t have a lot of offensively talent players, and the ones we do have are redundant in skill set. There is no magical system where this roster is doing any better than it is with what we are doing. This team is basically what Borrego had a few years ago except instead of Rozier/Hayward/PJ/Trez/Oubre/Plumlee Lee instead has a bunch of guys off the scrap heap, a worse version of Bridges, and one good sophomore. And that Borrego team wasn’t even good, but it’s helluva lot more offensive talent than what we’re throwing out there this week

I very much do not agree that that Borrego team you just listed is more talented offensively than our current team. Even if I did, I still wouldn't believe that a team's offensive system is irrelevant, either at all or below a given talent threshold.

then you're just wrong, and thats all there is to it. that team had solid contributing veterans on high salary, more dynamic offensive role players, healthier and better iterations of Bridges and Martin. All star LaMelo. that was a top 10 offensive team in ORTG.

this team is...not that. not CLOSE to that. we are throwing out lines where three guys are basically zeros on offense. not "bad", like actual ZEROS. its not the "system" that is stopping this starting line from getting 20 points in the first quarter, its that they lack talent (if you arent aware, passing is a talent not something you institute with a "system" and we are lacking heavily in passing talent both in making passes, and receiving passes, as well as experience)

there needs to be some honest reflection done if you think this team is anywhere close to Borregos because its actually shocking to me that anyone could say that. this team is year ONE of a rebuild of getting off that Rozier/Hayward build and we mostly downgraded the talent and experience to do so and got a couple draft picks and a Mann flyer to do so (btw the 43 win Borrego team got basically the same level of offensive production out of washed Isaiah Thomas off the street as we are getting out of Mann rn, he’s not some star player lol). this team is 50% kids and 50% deadweight, we don't need to lie to ourselves about its quality. this team is a LaMelo ball ankle turn away from being the worst team in the league by a significant margin.

[yosemiteben]

We’re a bad offensive team because we don’t have a lot of offensively talent players, and the ones we do have are redundant in skill set. There is no magical system where this roster is doing any better than it is with what we are doing. This team is basically what Borrego had a few years ago except instead of Rozier/Hayward/PJ/Trez/Oubre/Plumlee Lee instead has a bunch of guys off the scrap heap, a worse version of Bridges, and one good sophomore. And that Borrego team wasn’t even good, but it’s helluva lot more offensive talent than what we’re throwing out there this week

I very much do not agree that that Borrego team you just listed is more talented offensively than our current team. Even if I did, I still wouldn't believe that a team's offensive system is irrelevant, either at all or below a given talent threshold.

then you're just wrong, and thats all there is to it. that team had solid contributing veterans on high salary, more dynamic offensive role players, healthier and better iterations of Bridges and Martin. All star LaMelo. that was a top 10 offensive team in ORTG.

...

there needs to be some honest reflection done if you think this team is anywhere close to Borregos because its actually shocking to me that anyone could say that. this team is year ONE of a rebuild of getting off that Rozier/Hayward build and we mostly downgraded the talent and experience to do so and got a couple draft picks and a Mann flyer to do so (btw the 43 win Borrego team got basically the same level of offensive production out of washed Isaiah Thomas off the street as we are getting out of Mann rn, he’s not some star player lol). this team is 50% kids and 50% deadweight, we don't need to lie to ourselves about its quality. this team is a LaMelo ball ankle turn away from being the worst team in the league by a significant margin.

I think you have some revisionist history on the 2021-22 season.

Let's start with your comment about being an injury away from being awful. In that season, Melo and Miles both played 75+ games, Terry played 73 games, Cody Martin played 71 games, Oubre played 76 games. They had incredible health luck other than Hayward. If Melo went down that year, they would have been terrible as well. If they were playing without multiple starters for large chunks of the season, that obviously would have had a major impact.

I also have to say I find it amusing that you are saying raw talent is the difference, yet you write off Miles now but talk up Miles back 3 years ago. Do you think Miles became less talented? Because it seems like if you have a guy playing well and then later playing poorly, maybe the system could have something to do with it?

I think Melo, Brandon, and Mann are at least equivalent to the three lead scorers from 2021-22 in Miles, Melo, and Rozier. Then you have Miles, Grant, Seth, and Cody, which in my mind are the equivalent to Hayward (who btw only played 49 games that season), PJ, Oubre, and Cody. I just do not see wild discrepancies in offensive talent between those two squads.

[KembaWalker]

I very much do not agree that that Borrego team you just listed is more talented offensively than our current team. Even if I did, I still wouldn't believe that a team's offensive system is irrelevant, either at all or below a given talent threshold.

then you're just wrong, and thats all there is to it. that team had solid contributing veterans on high salary, more dynamic offensive role players, healthier and better iterations of Bridges and Martin. All star LaMelo. that was a top 10 offensive team in ORTG.

...

there needs to be some honest reflection done if you think this team is anywhere close to Borregos because its actually shocking to me that anyone could say that. this team is year ONE of a rebuild of getting off that Rozier/Hayward build and we mostly downgraded the talent and experience to do so and got a couple draft picks and a Mann flyer to do so (btw the 43 win Borrego team got basically the same level of offensive production out of washed Isaiah Thomas off the street as we are getting out of Mann rn, he’s not some star player lol). this team is 50% kids and 50% deadweight, we don't need to lie to ourselves about its quality. this team is a LaMelo ball ankle turn away from being the worst team in the league by a significant margin.

I think you have some revisionist history on the 2021-22 season.

Let's start with your comment about being an injury away from being awful. In that season, Melo and Miles both played 75+ games, Terry played 73 games, Cody Martin played 71 games, Oubre played 76 games. They had incredible health luck other than Hayward. If Melo went down that year, they would have been terrible as well. If they were playing without multiple starters for large chunks of the season, that obviously would have had a major impact.

I also have to say I find it amusing that you are saying raw talent is the difference, yet you write off Miles now but talk up Miles back 3 years ago. Do you think Miles became less talented? Because it seems like if you have a guy playing well and then later playing poorly, maybe the system could have something to do with it?

I think Melo, Brandon, and Mann are at least equivalent to the three lead scorers from 2021-22 in Miles, Melo, and Rozier. Then you have Miles, Grant, Seth, and Cody, which in my mind are the equivalent to Hayward (who btw only played 49 games that season), PJ, Oubre, and Cody. I just do not see wild discrepancies in offensive talent between those two squads.

I think its very obvious that Miles of 3 years ago was a solidly better player than he is now. He's lost at least half a step and a good bit of explosiveness and has done basically nothing in those 3 years to compensate as far as adding new skills, improving his shot, learning how to bait fouls, pretty much nothing. I'd maybe buy Cody as a wash from 3 years ago, he was definitely a better athlete pre-catastrophic injury but he at least has kept himself in shape and become a smarter and smarter player. and maybe regained his 3 ball, too early to tell.

Tre Mann is okay, its not fair to him to put him in the same convo with prime Rozier. Hes not nearly that good, but he's just a kid learning how to play still

Oubre/PJ/50 games of pre-fully washed Hayward(ironman status on this roster)/Plumlee is not comparable offensively to Seth/Grant/Diabate. cmon. Also left out Trez who was basically all offense and at least gave us some paint scoring

Miller is great, he's not overcoming all of that though. He's just a talented sophomore learning how to play

and just to be clear, I'm not even saying that team was great offensively. It was okay, it was piecemealed together. But it was much, much better than this team

[MasterIchiro]

It's 2-on-5.

Passing is a skill.

Looks like Salaun is similar to MKG in that department. Few passes from him are going to advance a possession. Most are going to just chew clock or degrade the possession.

Josh Green is a zero on offense.

Diabetes is a zero on offense.

In what **** world did that JB team with 43 wins trot out a 2-on-5 lineup?

We need back Bridges and Mark desperately, so then you just have to carry one zero (Green).

It's absolutely absurd to make this stretch of dead offense some referendum on coach Lee.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[amcoolio]

Trading for a big that is threatening on offense in any way would open up everything for this team.

[MasterIchiro]

Trading for a big that is threatening on offense in any way would open up everything for this team.

Accurate. Still theory but just makes so much sense.

Got my eyes on Beef Stew. Pay a premium. Pistons have their starting C. They're not a playoff team with or without him.

Hopefully Peterson is doing legwork as we speak for a paint force. A brute.

[MasterIchiro]

I don't know how many more times I can stomach Salaun tripping over his sneakers like a klutz.