Z-Rex: The Cody Zeller Thread

[JDuaneWayne]

Play Zeller closer to the basket???????????????




Thats his shot chart. Hard to believe thats the shot chart of a 7fter with 39 inch vertical or whatever but it is what it is.


DJ Augustin is converting better at the rim than Cody this season

and thats with him being opportunistic at the rim. God knows how awful he would be doing if we actually fed him the ball down there and told him to do something with it

There is a difference then that and a designed post up. Furthermore Zeller is a very good offensive rebounder so that accounts for some of those misses (obviously it would be nice if he converts more often). Your chart helps further establish my point about Clifford tho, Zeller is 3/29 from the elbow and Clifford in all his offensive prowess decides to use Zeller like McBob.

[JDuaneWayne]

[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wvb2SNJ9T4w[/YouTube]

Cody's scouting video....its very accurate i'd say

That video shows me Oladipo's passing >>>>> Session's passing

[mrknowitall215]

Situational Statistics: the 2013 Power Forward Crop

Zeller's main weakness on paper besides his finishing ability inside the paint is his limited jump shooting prowess. Attempting the second fewest jumpers per-game in this group at just 0.7 per-game, he knocked down an average 37.5% of that limited number of tries.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Sit ... Crop-4279/

The writing was on the wall. DraftExpress did a excellent job of scouting Cody Zeller when they projected him to be a late lottery pick after initially viewing him as consensus top-3 at the start of his sophomore campaign, but Cho for whatever reasons chose to ignore it. This isn't Zeller's fault, it's Cho's, but hopefully he end up being right about this one. I like Zeller's personality & I can tell that he badly wants to contribute on the court, but he just appear limited so far

[MasterIchiro]

Get this.

Cho avoids Andre Drummond because he doesn't want to add another project big with Biz.

Then he proceeds to draft Cody Zeller.

Yep.

Cody never saw a rebound he didn't feel certain would jam one of his fingers. He pulls his hands away from every single one of them.

Also hilarious, on help defense he runs away from a play to go find his man.

[MasterIchiro]

I haven't seen a bigger white spaz on the court since Brad Lohaus. And you could hide Brad. He was buried on a roster beneath 3 HOF players.

And with the 4th pick in the NBA draft, the Boston Celtics select Brad Lohaus.

[Snidely FC]

I think you all are premature ejaculating. Zeller's not a transformative player - the only one of those to come along the last couple years was Anthony Davis, and we got reamed out of that pick - but Cody is going to be a very productive NBA player for a long time. Cody Zeller gonna prove you all wrong.

[BeesWax]

Cody is a pretty good rebounder he averages 8.5 per 36mins which is good and 2.7 of those are offensive rebounds which is really good and he averages 1blk and 1stl per 36 also so he isn't a bad defender he just gets beat when he goes against a physical/stronger PF or C (mainly in the low post)

Biz who was younger without a training camp and less experienced did that is a rookie except for the steals. And triple the blocks almost. This guy was a project, Cody is supposed to be polished. That is our point we were sold and Aldridge like player and we got a less physical slightly better shooting Biz. Hopefully he comes around but nothing right now is polished in his game compared to other projects.

I don't get how people are saying you were "sold a polished product" I call BS, people knew Zeller was being asked to change his game coming to the NBA. In fact he's probably being asked to change his game more than anyone else in the draft. I don't know when was the last time I actually seen him get the ball on a post up, and he's constantly setting screens for Sessions.

I call your BS with this from Cho and Zeller.

The reason why I'm not too fond of the Cody Zeller pick is because I feel bamboozled, almost as if they insulted my intelligence...

-- Cho said the NBA player Zeller reminds him of most is Portland Trail Blazer LaMarcus Aldridge.

Cho on Zeller: “He’s a pretty unique player with his size – a legit 7-foot – and he can run as well as any 7-footer out there. He can hit a perimeter shot; 18-20 feet and out beyond the arc. He has a very, very high basketball IQ.”

http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_n ... bcats.html

''It's not a huge adjustment,'' Zeller said at an introductory press conference Friday. ''I shot outside in high school and AAU. In college I didn't need to as much because we had so many perimeter shooters and didn't have a post presence other than me. I had to be that guy. I'm a team guy and if that's what the team needs from me than that's what I'm going to do.''

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Char ... eat-062813

[Snidely FC]

vs. MIL 22 mins 6/12 12pts 7rbs
vs. ORL 15 mins 5/7 10pts 6 rbs
vs. PHI 12 mins 5/6 10pts 5rbs

He can do this. He is a young, unselfish player trying to fit in. Give him time.

[BeesWax]

vs. MIL 22 mins 6/12 12pts 7rbs
vs. ORL 15 mins 5/7 10pts 6 rbs
vs. PHI 12 mins 5/6 10pts 5rbs

He can do this. He is a young, unselfish player trying to fit it. Give him time.

Great but we were told he was like LaMarcus Aldridge who had scored 166 points by his 11th game not 32. I think the biggest problem here is we avoided other players to avoid projects then got a project anyway.

[Eoghan]

Cody is a pretty good rebounder he averages 8.5 per 36mins which is good and 2.7 of those are offensive rebounds which is really good and he averages 1blk and 1stl per 36 also so he isn't a bad defender he just gets beat when he goes against a physical/stronger PF or C (mainly in the low post)

Biz who was younger without a training camp and less experienced did that is a rookie except for the steals. And triple the blocks almost. This guy was a project, Cody is supposed to be polished. That is our point we were sold and Aldridge like player and we got a less physical slightly better shooting Biz. Hopefully he comes around but nothing right now is polished in his game compared to other projects.

I don't get how people are saying you were "sold a polished product" I call BS, people knew Zeller was being asked to change his game coming to the NBA. In fact he's probably being asked to change his game more than anyone else in the draft. I don't know when was the last time I actually seen him get the ball on a post up, and he's constantly setting screens for Sessions.

Change his game? Even Diop could make open 15 footers, I don't think that's too much to ask of a number 4 pick.

[mrknowitall215]

Cody is a pretty good rebounder he averages 8.5 per 36mins which is good and 2.7 of those are offensive rebounds which is really good and he averages 1blk and 1stl per 36 also so he isn't a bad defender he just gets beat when he goes against a physical/stronger PF or C (mainly in the low post)

Per 36 numbers do not help Cody Zeller's case at all. I did a lookup on Bkref to see if any Bobcats rookie forward and/or center has ever simultaneously posted below 10.8 points, 8.5 rebounds, & 1.1 blocks while shooting sub-38% per 36, and the results only returned...Cody Zeller...and James Southerland (not a PF or C)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

...then I figured that might be unfair to Zeller considering the Bobcats' mere 10 years in existence, so I did the same research on the entire NBA, all franchises, every player active or not. That search fielded in Zeller being on a list with Matt Freije, Chris Singleton (SF/PF), and Nikoloz Tskitishvili (SF/PF) as the only rookie power forwards in NBA history to post such subpar per 36 numbers while averaging at least 15 minutes in actual gameplay. Of those 4 players, Zeller is the only one to not attempt at least 1.9 three pointers a game so their field goal percentages can yield out a bit skewed by the fact that they shot from beyond the arc. Zeller also had the highest usage percentage of the four as well with 19.6% (Tskitishvili: 17.0%, Freije: 15.5%, Singleton: 11.5%)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... y=mp_per_g

I'm still waiting on 'LamarMatic7's research on this matter. He's a lot better at this kind of stuff than me. For some reason, there's a hopefulness in me that want to believe that I'm not looking this up right

[catch20two]

Cody is a pretty good rebounder he averages 8.5 per 36mins which is good and 2.7 of those are offensive rebounds which is really good and he averages 1blk and 1stl per 36 also so he isn't a bad defender he just gets beat when he goes against a physical/stronger PF or C (mainly in the low post)

Per 36 numbers do not help Cody Zeller's case at all. I did a lookup on Bkref to see if any Bobcats rookie forward and/or center has ever simultaneously posted below 10.8 points, 8.5 rebounds, & 1.1 blocks while shooting sub-38% per 36, and the results only returned...Cody Zeller...and James Southerland (not a PF or C)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

...then I figured that might be unfair to Zeller considering the Bobcats' mere 10 years in existence, so I did the same research on the entire NBA, all franchises, every player active or not. That search fielded in Zeller being on a list with Matt Freije, Chris Singleton (SF/PF), and Nikoloz Tskitishvili (SF/PF) as the only rookie power forwards in NBA history to post such subpar per 36 numbers while averaging at least 15 minutes in actual gameplay. Of those 4 players, Zeller is the only one to not attempt at least 1.9 three pointers a game so their field goal percentages can yield out a bit skewed by the fact that they shot from beyond the arc. Zeller also had the highest usage percentage of the four as well with 19.6% (Tskitishvili: 17.0%, Freije: 15.5%, Singleton: 11.5%)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... y=mp_per_g

I'm still waiting on 'LamarMatic7's research on this matter. He's a lot better at this kind of stuff than me. For some reason, there's a hopefulness in me that want to believe that I'm not looking this up right

Sheesh.

[LamarMatic7]

Cody is a pretty good rebounder he averages 8.5 per 36mins which is good and 2.7 of those are offensive rebounds which is really good and he averages 1blk and 1stl per 36 also so he isn't a bad defender he just gets beat when he goes against a physical/stronger PF or C (mainly in the low post)

Per 36 numbers do not help Cody Zeller's case at all. I did a lookup on Bkref to see if any Bobcats rookie forward and/or center has ever simultaneously posted below 10.8 points, 8.5 rebounds, & 1.1 blocks while shooting sub-38% per 36, and the results only returned...Cody Zeller...and James Southerland (not a PF or C)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

...then I figured that might be unfair to Zeller considering the Bobcats' mere 10 years in existence, so I did the same research on the entire NBA, all franchises, every player active or not. That search fielded in Zeller being on a list with Matt Freije, Chris Singleton (SF/PF), and Nikoloz Tskitishvili (SF/PF) as the only rookie power forwards in NBA history to post such subpar per 36 numbers while averaging at least 15 minutes in actual gameplay. Of those 4 players, Zeller is the only one to not attempt at least 1.9 three pointers a game so their field goal percentages can yield out a bit skewed by the fact that they shot from beyond the arc. Zeller also had the highest usage percentage of the four as well with 19.6% (Tskitishvili: 17.0%, Freije: 15.5%, Singleton: 11.5%)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... y=mp_per_g

I'm still waiting on 'LamarMatic7's research on this matter. He's a lot better at this kind of stuff than me. For some reason, there's a hopefulness in me that want to believe that I'm not looking this up right

You have done a great job at tackling Zeller's stats from a historical stand point yourself.

I did the same as promised on December 30, but the amount of data to go through frustrated me so I gave up after doing 1/3 of the work. I have saved the post I had written up so I'll just copy and paste the unfinished research in a sec. I guess I should pick it up at 2000, perhaps, and take a look at the current day and age to see whether this isn't just a thing of the 80s since one could make an argument that mediocre franchises drafted way more poorly during that decade and a whole lot of high draft picks got involved in drugs. Moreover, and I can't stress this enough, there seemingly are way too many white stiffs drafted in the top 10 during a time when teams probably viewed this somewhat as a semi-factor you have to consider from the fans point of view. Namely, that they would prefer a white player.

All in all, you can see for yourself that big guys with sub-par rookie years just don't turn into great players. Most bigs with college experience play well the first year they make the league from what I observed.

And you have to see that the guys I have listed even have better stats than Cody does so far.

[LamarMatic7]

My unfinished post that probably should be completed with post-2000 data:

I went through every NBA draft since the ABA-NBA merger and looked for players drafted in the top 10 with at least two years of college experience (so there wouldn't be no high-school kids or high-ceiling projects) who had a similar rookie year to Zeller's. I decided to limit my search to power forwards and centers since it would apply more to Zeller's case. Some of them were probably limited by their playing time but either way the players chosen had average seasons.

You can somewhat create the filters to just do a usual search, but unfortunately it doesn't have an option of limiting the players only to top10 picks. So I went through it draft by draft.

Kent Benson, 6-10, Center, No. 1 pick in 1977. 4 years at Indiana, 20/10 the last year, played for Bobby Knight's undefeated team.

Rookie year - 18.7mpg, 7.7ppg, 4.3rpg, .465 FG%, Milwaukee Bucks.

Peak - 1978-1982, 4 seasons, 29.2mpg, 12.3ppg, 7.2rpg, didn't play in the playoffs during this stretch.

Best known for? Pissing off Kareem who broke his hand by punching Benson. Somewhat of a white stiff.

Kenny Carr, 6-7, Power Forward, No 6. pick in 1977. 3 years at NC State, 21/9 averages.

Rookie year - 14.1mpg, 6.2ppg, 4.0rpg, .444 FG%, Lakers.

Peak - 1979-1987, 8 seasons, 27.8mpg, 12.6ppg, 8.2rpg, .514 FG%, played on a good Portland team.

Best known for? Have seen him play, but honestly don't know much about him. Great rebounding percentage numbers.

Tom LaGarde, 6-10, Center, No 9. pick in 1977. 4 years at UNC, 15/7 the last two.

Rookie year - 11.3mpg, 4.0ppg, 2.8rpg, .405 FG%, Denver Nuggets.

Peak - 1980-81, 1 season, 32.6mpg, 13.7ppg, 8.1rpg, .470 FG%, expansion Mavs.

Best known for? 1976 Olympic gold. Even though a calf injury ended his 6th NBA season after 1 game, it came already after him dropping out of the league and playing in Italy.

Jammin' James Bailey, 6-9, Power Forward, No 6. pick in 1979. 4 years at Rutgers, 17/9 averages.

Rookie year - 10.8mpg, 4.7ppg, 2.9rpg, .450 FG%, Seattle SuperSonics.

Peak - 1980-1986, 6 seasons, 22.1mpg, 10.2ppg, 5.7rpg, .490 FG%, 1 playoff series.

Best known for? Never heard of him. Supposedly a great dunker.

Larry Demic, 6-9, Power Forward, No 9. pick in 1979. 4 years at Arizona, 19/10 the last year.

Rookie year - 22.8mpg, 7.0ppg, 5.9rpg, .436 FG%, New York Knicks.

Peak - His rookie year.

Best known for? Out of the league in 3 seasons.

James Ray, 6-8, Power Forward, No 5. pick in 1980. 4 years at Jacksonville, 14/7 averages.

Rookie year - 18 games, 8.2mpg, 2.1ppg, 2.1rpg, .306 FG%, Denver Nuggets.

Peak - 1982-83, 1 season, 9.6mpg, 3.8ppg, 2.8rpg, .458 FG%, Nuggets.

Best known for? Out of the league in 103 games, 3 seasons.

Bill Garnett, 6-9, Power Forward, No 4. pick in 1982.[/B] 4 years at Wyoming, 14/7 averages.

Rookie year - 18.8mpg, 6.3ppg, 5.4rpg, .533%, Dallas Mavericks.

Peak - His rookie year.

Best known for? Out of the league in 4 seasons.

LaSalle Thompson, 6-10, Center, No 5. pick in 1982. 3 years at Texas, 17/12 averages.

Rookie year - 13.9mpg, 5.4ppg, 5.3rpg, .512 FG%, Kansas City Kings.

Peak - 1983-1989, 6 seasons, 26.7mpg, 11.4ppg, 8.9rpg, .503 FG%, mediocre Kings teams.

Best known for? Tough veteran for 90s Pacers teams, played until the age of 35.

Cliff Levingston, 6-8, Power Forward, No 9. pick in 1982. 3 years at Wichita State, 16/11 averages.

Rookie year - 14.2mpg, 5.6ppg, 3.7rpg, .485 FG%, Detroit Pistons.

Peak - 1983-1990, 7 seasons, 24.5mpg, 8.6ppg, 6.3rpg, .528 FG%, good Atlanta teams.

Best known for? 2 titles with Bulls. Wasn't exactly as good as Phil expected so his PT dwindled while Levingston pouted.

Russell Cross, 6-10, Center, No 6. pick in 1983. 3 years at Purdue, 16/7 averages.

Rookie year - 7.9mpg, 3.7ppg, 1.8rpg, .571 FG%

Peak - His rookie year is his only year.

Best known for? Being an even worse Warriors pick than Chris Washburn.

...At this point I had had enough. Kenny Carr and LaSalle Thompson have been the best of these players and that's not saying much. So I figured I wouldn't type the stats of all the guys who didn't become great players and would look for the guys that did. If there are any...

Rest of the blah picks: Sidney Green, Antoine Carr, Jon Koncak, Joe Kleine, Ed Pinckney, Chris Washburn, William Bedford, Brad Sellers, Olden Polynice...

The guys who did pan out:

Detlef Schrempf, 6-9, Small Forward/Power Forward, No 8. pick in 1985. 4 years at Washington, 16/8 the last two years

Rookie year - 15.1mpg, 6.2ppg, 3.1rpg, .451 FG%, Dallas Mavericks.

Peak - 34.5mpg, 16.8ppg, 7.4rpg, 4.1apg, .501 FG%, good Indy and great Sonics teams.

Best known for? Third best player on a team that should have won the title and an awesome point forward.

[LamarMatic7]

So yeah... I reached 1987 and since the merger only Detlef had been a guy who panned out later on.

That being said, I don't feel that good about this idea any more. It's hard to judge which guys truly had bad rookie years and who simply didn't play enough. In some cases they played as well as they could in their allotted time. It's hard to judge what to do with Horace Grant, per example, and I think that was the point I gave up doing this.

The whole post just seems rather "blah".

But, yeah, either way judge the info the way you want to do it and if some of you actually believe that this wasn't worthless research I might start back up from the year 2000.

[mrknowitall215]

So yeah... I reached 1987 and since the merger only Detlef had been a guy who panned out later on.

That being said, I don't feel that good about this idea any more. It's hard to judge which guys truly had bad rookie years and who simply didn't play enough. In some cases they played as well as they could in their allotted time. It's hard to judge what to do with Horace Grant, per example, and I think that was the point I gave up doing this.

The whole post just seems rather "blah".

But, yeah, either way judge the info the way you want to do it and if some of you actually believe that this wasn't worthless research I might start back up from the year 2000.

Much credit to you for putting forth so much effort, but I wouldn't advise you to continue any post-2000's data because it wouldn't put a actual gauge of comparison on Zeller's production so far. That's why I opted to use per 36 upon 'JDR720's appraisal of such because that put each comparison in the same box in a production per minute basis. Zeller is in a rare & low percentile of players at his size & position to deliver such low production in their rookie season. The early returns are not looking good at all, unless you would like to say that the respective teams weren't patient enough with Freije & Tskitishvili. The Wizards have still yet to get any consistent or above average production out of Singleton even though he was a former McDonald's All-American with upside like Zeller, not to mention a 2-time ACC Defensive Player of the Year

For example, you used Detlef Schrempf as a possible comparison to Zeller, but Schrempf averaged 14.7 points on 45% shooting (43% on 3-pointers), 7.4 rebounds, & 3.3 assist per 36 minutes in his rookie year. If Zeller was putting up similar production to that on a per minute basis then I would be more than willing to practice silence whenever the Zeller enthusiasts preach patience

[LamarMatic7]

For example, you used Detlef Schrempf as a possible comparison to Zeller, but Schrempf averaged 14.7 points on 45% shooting (43% on 3-pointers), 7.4 rebounds, & 3.3 assist per 36 minutes in his rookie year. If Zeller was putting up similar production to that on a per minute basis then I would be more than willing to practice silence whenever the Zeller enthusiasts preach patience

Yes, you're right. I wrote up his stats, then hit Horace Grant and realized that this isn't exactly working. You may notice that nobody of the guys I listed shot as bad as Zeller did and that some of them like Kent Benson had decent stats per36.

If only bk-ref's search had a filter for the pick with which you were drafted. That's the part I like about this idea of mine and what made me go through drafts year by year.

[mrknowitall215]

For example, you used Detlef Schrempf as a possible comparison to Zeller, but Schrempf averaged 14.7 points on 45% shooting (43% on 3-pointers), 7.4 rebounds, & 3.3 assist per 36 minutes in his rookie year. If Zeller was putting up similar production to that on a per minute basis then I would be more than willing to practice silence whenever the Zeller enthusiasts preach patience

Yes, you're right. I wrote up his stats, then hit Horace Grant and realized that this isn't exactly working. You may notice that nobody of the guys I listed shot as bad as Zeller did and that some of them like Kent Benson had decent stats per36.

If only bk-ref's search had a filter for the pick with which you were drafted. That's the part I like about this idea of mine and what made me go through drafts year by year.

Putting the emphasis of top-4 pick on Zeller's production in comparison to others would probably put him in no man's land. I didn't want to marginalize him by his draft position, because a player can be productive no matter where he's drafted, just look at Isaiah 'Mr. Irrelevant' Thomas for example

*NOTE: I'm bored, so I'm about to do a search on the lowest PER of all 1st round, 4th overall draft selections in modern NBA history (probably starting from the 70's until now). Of course, Zeller's would be a incomplete since he hasn't even finished half of the season, but I want to see how he stacks up

[LamarMatic7]

For example, you used Detlef Schrempf as a possible comparison to Zeller, but Schrempf averaged 14.7 points on 45% shooting (43% on 3-pointers), 7.4 rebounds, & 3.3 assist per 36 minutes in his rookie year. If Zeller was putting up similar production to that on a per minute basis then I would be more than willing to practice silence whenever the Zeller enthusiasts preach patience

Yes, you're right. I wrote up his stats, then hit Horace Grant and realized that this isn't exactly working. You may notice that nobody of the guys I listed shot as bad as Zeller did and that some of them like Kent Benson had decent stats per36.

If only bk-ref's search had a filter for the pick with which you were drafted. That's the part I like about this idea of mine and what made me go through drafts year by year.

Putting the emphasis of top-4 pick on Zeller's production in comparison to others would probably put him in no man's land. I didn't want to marginalize him by his draft position, because a player can be productive no matter where he's drafted, just look at Isaiah 'Mr. Irrelevant' Thomas for example

The reason for me to put the emphasis on this is because a number four pick with two years of college experience generally means that the player is well developed and isn't exactly a project who might struggle right out of the gate for that reason.

Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not that active when it comes to college basketball and the draft talk, but that's exactly what people said about Zeller. That he's the safe pick, the guy who knows how to play and despite a lower ceiling will contribute in the NBA.

[JDR720]

He has played roughly 557 NBA minutes so far in his NBA career or about 9 and 1/3 hours which isn't enough time to make a fair judgement yet he is still leaning to play a new role and position