2016 Scavenger Hunt Draft - ESAL/Gatz wins

[Braggins]

Putting Green over Kemp made me hate myself a little. I agree with what you said about switching Kemp and Green. I'm also not much of a Karl Malone fan, but it was one of his MVP seasons that got picked. I think the top four PFs in my rankings were all MVP seasons.

[LamarMatic7]

McHale could potentially be a pretty big liability on D.I'd probably take every player starting at PF over Mchale.

WHAT!?!?

I think you are being unfair to McHale. He made the All Defensive 1st or 2nd team six times in his career. He would most definitely not be a defensive liability. He was able to defend SF, PF and C at very high levels.

Maybe, but he always seemed like kind of a stiff when I've seen him play. I have a hard time imagining him guarding Lebron and a lot of the SF's when teams go small. Seems like he could be exploited in this league with modern rules. Maybe I've haven't seen enough of him, though.

Who says that we play by modern rules though?

We never really talked this through and that's why doing scavenger hunt drafts for specific decades might be a good idea for future drafts. Because obviously contemporary players are "better" than players from the past just because of the accumulated knowledge we have and the way in which active players just have adapted their games to fit the current rules and style of play.

The same goes for doing it the other way around. Take some floor-spacing 3-point shooter who is not at his best when taking twos off the dribble and stick him in the 70s and he'll get lost there.

That's why I looked at this thing giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and seeing them as the player they were in their day. Obviously, I don't disagree with us transferring the athletic traits of players and thus I'm not arguing the actual point you made (if you think McHale was slow then, you can hold that against him). Heck, my own team lacks a bit of toughness and a front-court edge.

But, yeah, this kind of a draft where all eras are thrown in together need a certain level of looking at players in a vacuum.

The other factor, and I won't get into this too much, is that we just know so much more about present players and probably tend to underrate players from the past, if we don't know all that much about the specific players. That's just understandable from a human perspective and probably something you should take into account when drafting a team.

Edit: And, oh yeah.. Stojakovic over Mullin???

[LamarMatic7]

Ian, you have used the per36's for Ostertag when writing up the stats of your team's players. I almost fell out of my chair when my brain had to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, Ostertag had averaged a double double some time in his career.

[LamarMatic7]

Sorry for the delay guys. I have been busy and, admittedly, too lazy to get myself to do this. I didn't want to half-ass it. Now that I gave it some thought my top3 is...

1st - Gatz

I think that what has helped Gatz here and in other votes is that his roster truly looks the most sensible and beautiful. He has the absolutely dangerous and unstoppable Big Three that everyone needs in this kind of a draft. Shaq, Dirk and Durant are just awesome by themselves but it's even more scary when they make sense together. And his other guys have the right kind of balance between being very good players, having the right kind of skills to fit on the team and being great guys who would buy in (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that Westbrook would accept the "huge minutes but off the bench" role in exchange for being a winner). The team looks just right. Just some great execution throughout the draft.

From this point on I think I could have had any of the other teams finish 2nd or 3rd. Just impossible to decide between all of them when there aren't specific match-ups to look at. I don't think that we've had such a balanced draft before.

2nd - ESAL

Your defensive potential won me over. I mean, what are the chances of you teaming Kawhi, Rodman and Robinson!? They're absolutely perfect for each other on defense. Curry and Pierce seem to be enough to keep the offense clicking and the bench unit aren't no slouches either. Beware about one thing though if you get to the final four - you have the 88-89 little pest version of Rodman. This is before he gained all those pounds and became a legit power forward. You might have to adjust if you face one of these big front-courts.

Watch on YouTube

3rd - Fats

ugh... this was so hard to do. in the end, an offense ran by Magic with so many threats given to him was too much. Malone & Malone is scary.

Honorable mention/I could have picked you if I sent the post 5 minutes earlier/later - Amcoolio, Diop, Yosemite.

[Braggins]

WHAT!?!?

I think you are being unfair to McHale. He made the All Defensive 1st or 2nd team six times in his career. He would most definitely not be a defensive liability. He was able to defend SF, PF and C at very high levels.

Maybe, but he always seemed like kind of a stiff when I've seen him play. I have a hard time imagining him guarding Lebron and a lot of the SF's when teams go small. Seems like he could be exploited in this league with modern rules. Maybe I've haven't seen enough of him, though.

Who says that we play by modern rules though?

We never really talked this through and that's why doing scavenger hunt drafts for specific decades might be a good idea for future drafts. Because obviously contemporary players are "better" than players from the past just because of the accumulated knowledge we have and the way in which active players just have adapted their games to fit the current rules and style of play.

The same goes for doing it the other way around. Take some floor-spacing 3-point shooter who is not at his best when taking twos off the dribble and stick him in the 70s and he'll get lost there.

That's why I looked at this thing giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and seeing them as the player they were in their day. Obviously, I don't disagree with us transferring the athletic traits of players and thus I'm not arguing the actual point you made (if you think McHale was slow then, you can hold that against him). Heck, my own team lacks a bit of toughness and a front-court edge.

But, yeah, this kind of a draft where all eras are thrown in together need a certain level of looking at players in a vacuum.

The other factor, and I won't get into this too much, is that we just know so much more about present players and probably tend to underrate players from the past, if we don't know all that much about the specific players. That's just understandable from a human perspective and probably something you should take into account when drafting a team.

Edit: And, oh yeah.. Stojakovic over Mullin???

I agree. I tried taking a player from the 1959-1960 season with my first pick and only had one player who started his career after 1985 ranked first in my position rankings. When it came to voting I was just thinking in terms of what I thought would happen if these teams played because it made it easier and I assumed modern rules by default because its what I've seen the most of. Thinking of it in that context somewhat bled into how I ranked the players.

I had no idea which of those two to rank first, but I was more familiar with Peja. I wouldn't disagree if you told me I was wrong about their order. I feel comfortable with ranking them 7th/8th though.

[LamarMatic7]

I agree. I tried taking a player from the 1959-1960 season with my first pick and only had one player who started his career before 1985 ranked first in my position rankings. When it came to voting I was just thinking in terms of what I thought would happen if these teams played because it made it easier and I assumed modern rules by default because its what I've seen the most of. Thinking of it in that context somewhat bled into how I ranked the players.

I had no idea which of those two to rank first, but I was more familiar with Peja. I wouldn't disagree if you told me I was wrong about their order. I feel comfortable with ranking them 7th/8th though.

And I understand how valuable Stojakovic might seem after us just watching the 2015-16 season. Is there a more suited small forward from the NBA's past who would now make a ton of sense as a devastating four!?

But I also think that Mullin's position-less play on offense, ability to create and court awareness would fit today's game.

[fatlever]

Yeah, there is no chance that Peja in his best year was as good as Mullen in his best year. You might argue that Peja is a better role player than mullen next to LeBron for the reason that he was a better 3pt shooter and could just stand in the corner and do nothing but launch 3s. Mullen was better than Peja in literally every other aspect of the game - passing, dribbling, shot creation for self and others, in between game, and even defense.

Anyway, I like what bragging did with ranking starters. It's a fun exercise and talking point. I'll rank mine later today.

As for Karl Malone, yeah he's not really a player that is at his best as an isolated scorer. Not somebody you give the ball to and say go score, which is why the jazz sometimes struggled in tight playoff games. But with magic creating shots for him all he has to do is finish, which was his strength. If I need 2 pts in the post, the ball is going either to Moses or I am posting up magic on a smaller defender. Karl shines on team fat because he has the greatest passer ever giving him the ball.

Moses at his best was a better all around player than Robinson. Robinson was a freak athlete and had some gaudy stats, but he didn't have a post game. Moses won the league mvp 3 times, in an Era with Kareem, magic, bird and Dr j. He took two different teams to the finals. Some say he outplayed Kareem in head to head match ups. He was a monster.

More later, I'm on my phone, been up all night thanks to a faulty fire alarm. Trying to go back to bed now.

[Diop]

The small parts I saw McHale defending he looked very tough.

And Lamars right about Rodman, that's before his "rebirth " when he sat alone in his car with a shotgun and killed the old Rodman allowing the new Rodman to be born. He really was a whack job.

[LamarMatic7]

that being said.. how do we look at Mullin if there never was a Dream Team in 1992 (and pros first played in, let's say, 2000)? that one footnote does a lot to solidify his status as "damn, that dude could really play" since his amazing contemporaries also thought so.

such small things shape our perspective so much. for example, that's why I perhaps underrate Reggie Miller. maybe I'm taking too much away from him just because I want to dock him points for the over-exaggerated folklore of his heroics.

(in a few words - I think that we wouldn't remember Reggie as the same player if he had had tight playoff series against the Hawks, the Bucks or someone. The MSG and the Knicks affect the way we think about those games. Trash-talking some Bucks minority owner after a barrage of 3s at the Bradley Center is something that we'd look up on those old LA Times articles on the internet. There wouldn't be a 30 for 30 for it. There probably wouldn't even be a YouTube video of it.

His teams also had to be specifically constructed for his style of play. Just as he had surprisingly many seasons of averaging 19 or 20 points per game for a supposedly great shooter and scorer. That's somewhat average if we look at the other great shooting guards. Reggie averaged more than 23 only once in his career)

[Diop]

I wasn't trying to attack Malone on your team Fats, he fits perfectly in your side. He's like a James worthy on roids for you. I was just more bringing up arguments I used to have with friends when I was younger. They all used to say how he was the best ever pf, but he never blew me away. A great, consistent hard working all star, but I never thought of him as the most talented pf I had seen

[Braggins]

Some older era players benefited from me thinking in terms of the modern game. I think Bird would benefit from playing the modern style/rules and being told to shoot more 3s.

I think the modern rules would hurt MJ in this context.

[LamarMatic7]

The small parts I saw McHale defending he looked very tough.

And Lamars right about Rodman, that's before his "rebirth " when he sat alone in his car with a shotgun and killed the old Rodman allowing the new Rodman to be born. He really was a whack job.

Do I sense a fellow reader of the one and only "Bad As I Wanna Be"?



Or are you just knowledgeable about Rodman's career?

[LamarMatic7]

I wasn't trying to attack Malone on your team Fats, he fits perfectly in your side. He's like a James worthy on roids for you. I was just more bringing up arguments I used to have with friends when I was younger. They all used to say how he was the best ever pf, but he never blew me away. A great, consistent hard working all star, but I never thought of him as the most talented pf I had seen

I agree.

There are many things I disagree with on Simmons's book. But he had the perfect take on Malone and Barkley. Was Barkley better than Malone? Yes. Would I rather have the weightlifting-at-6AM Malone on my team for the long run? Yes.

[LamarMatic7]

What I found interesting about ranking the teams was that I moreso looked at it as a regular season. Now that the playoffs are approaching such small things like Malone being great for the regular season, but possibly getting outplayed by a more talented player might swing a series.

[Braggins]

Moses at his best was a better all around player than Robinson. Robinson was a freak athlete and had some gaudy stats, but he didn't have a post game. Moses won the league mvp 3 times, in an Era with Kareem, magic, bird and Dr j. He took two different teams to the finals. Some say he outplayed Kareem in head to head match ups. He was a monster.

David Robinson was the single most difficult player for me to rank. Mostly because his stats from the season he was picked were absolutely absurd. I also feel that Malone was the better player. I feel pretty strongly that Hakeem is better too, but I seriously even considered putting him below Robinson as well.

[Diop]

The small parts I saw McHale defending he looked very tough.

And Lamars right about Rodman, that's before his "rebirth " when he sat alone in his car with a shotgun and killed the old Rodman allowing the new Rodman to be born. He really was a whack job.

Do I sense a fellow reader of the one and only "Bad As I Wanna Be"?



Or are you just knowledgeable about Rodman's career?

There is a movie of his life I've watched, I never read the book

[Diop]

Moses at his best was a better all around player than Robinson. Robinson was a freak athlete and had some gaudy stats, but he didn't have a post game. Moses won the league mvp 3 times, in an Era with Kareem, magic, bird and Dr j. He took two different teams to the finals. Some say he outplayed Kareem in head to head match ups. He was a monster.

David Robinson was the single most difficult player for me to rank. Mostly because his stats from the season he was picked were absolutely absurd. I also feel that Malone was the better player. I feel pretty strongly that Hakeem is better too, but I seriously even considered putting him below Robinson as well.

I was a big Robinson fan but hakeem used to make him his bitch

[Diop]

What I found interesting about ranking the teams was that I moreso looked at it as a regular season. Now that the playoffs are approaching such small things like Malone being great for the regular season, but possibly getting outplayed by a more talented player might swing a series.

The fact that Chicago could get away with sticking Longley on him was a knock on him.

But with magic running and gunning Malone just has to finish which he can definitely do.

[Diop]

that being said.. how do we look at Mullin if there never was a Dream Team in 1992 (and pros first played in, let's say, 2000)? that one footnote does a lot to solidify his status as "damn, that dude could really play" since his amazing contemporaries also thought so.

such small things shape our perspective so much. for example, that's why I perhaps underrate Reggie Miller. maybe I'm taking too much away from him just because I want to dock him points for the over-exaggerated folklore of his heroics.

(in a few words - I think that we wouldn't remember Reggie as the same player if he had had tight playoff series against the Hawks, the Bucks or someone. The MSG and the Knicks affect the way we think about those games. Trash-talking some Bucks minority owner after a barrage of 3s at the Bradley Center is something that we'd look up on those old LA Times articles on the internet. There wouldn't be a 30 for 30 for it. There probably wouldn't even be a YouTube video of it.

His teams also had to be specifically constructed for his style of play. Just as he had surprisingly many seasons of averaging 19 or 20 points per game for a supposedly great shooter and scorer. That's somewhat average if we look at the other great shooting guards. Reggie averaged more than 23 only once in his career)

I always loved mullin because I love shooting and he was so great at it. I've promised myself for the next draft that I will pick more players that I know/liked and less by their bball ref stats, just to pick the team I would want to see.

I've never drafted dale dog face Ellis even though he was another one of my favourites.
Ironically the team that would most likely look like would be Gatzs. One inside presence, 4 shooters.
A lot of my early Nba knowledge was mainly from computer games, it was that hard to get normal content, and that's how my teams always ended up. I was doing 1 in 4 out before it was popular in the 90s. Get a double team, pass to open shooter

[LamarMatic7]

The small parts I saw McHale defending he looked very tough.

And Lamars right about Rodman, that's before his "rebirth " when he sat alone in his car with a shotgun and killed the old Rodman allowing the new Rodman to be born. He really was a whack job.

Do I sense a fellow reader of the one and only "Bad As I Wanna Be"?



Or are you just knowledgeable about Rodman's career?

There is a movie of his life I've watched, I never read the book

it's amazing. it's so bad that it's good. every page looks like this.