Fake Trade Thread #7

[JMAC3]

but yes we are seeing other star players pass our guys such as Cade, Edwards, Haliburton, Amen, Castle etc.. because those teams are actually trying to win and those players are getting valuable experience playing in NBA cup, Playoffs, meaningful seeding games etc..

Meanwhile we are winning 20 games and we wonder why our players don't improve at the same rate.

You have to put your players in position to experience these sorts of things, that is where guys take the biggest leaps. It is of zero shock organizations like Sacramento, Washington, Charlotte, Utah young players never really seem to fully pan out. Playing for lottery odds instead of the playoffs is going to breed those results.

[Walt Cronkite]

Regarding the Detroit v Charlotte tradjectory comparison:

I do think it's worth pointing out that before Detroit won the #1 pick that ended being Cade, they were the worst team in the East (Cha 10th), then were the 2nd worst in the East(Cha 10th), worst again (Cha 14th), worst AGAIN (Cha 13th), before bringing in Trajan Langdon and finishing 6th in the East last season and getting to where they are today. They actually had less wins even the season before all of that than Charlotte. My point being, Detroit was finishing below Charlotte before LaMelo was drafted and continued to be worse until last season, but if you compare the rosters, I think you would be hard pressed to make the argument that Charlotte's roster was so much better than Detroit's. The Pistons tanked for years while Charlotte was stuck on their eternal treadmill. Before the new ownership, Charlotte was so bad they couldn't even tank correctly. The franchise was so cheap, despite desperately needing talent, it traded 2nd round picks for cash. The franchise's momma was so fat...

The new ownership had an opportunity to bring in Trajan Langdon and opted for Peterson instead, which was maybe a terrible mistake, but those two also had different assignments. Peterson inherited a reboot/basically an expansion team and has been tasked with changing everything from the G-league up, while Langdon was tasked with trying to win. They don't seem like a great comparison to me, outside of people wanting to compare teams with tall lead guards that were drafted in subsequent seasons.

[JMAC3]

Hot take, but 2nd round picks are overrated. Yes, every year 4-5 2nd rounders will be solid hits and it is nice to find a gem such as a Herb Jones, Nembhard, Camara, Ajay Mitchell etc...However, Charlotte has become overly reliant on 2nd rounders and we consistently are giving them large minutes instead of acquiring reliable Vets who know how to win in FA and trades.

McDaniels, Richards, Cody Martin, JT Thor, Bryce McGowens, KJ Simpson, Kalkbrenner, Sion James...

Those guys have played wayyyyyyy too many minutes, taken up way too many roster spots over the years for Charlotte.
That doesn't even include later 1st round picks like Liam McNeely and Nick Smith Jr.

We are probably top 3 in the NBA if I had to guess in minutes played by 2nd round picks last 5 years.

I mean we have 35 starts this year by guys drafted in 2nd the round the past 2 years. Just another reason why this team is bad.

[Walt Cronkite]

Hot take, but 2nd round picks are overrated. Yes, every year 4-5 2nd rounders will be solid hits and it is nice to find a gem such as a Herb Jones, Nembhard, Camara, Ajay Mitchell etc...However, Charlotte has become overly reliant on 2nd rounders and we consistently are giving them large minutes instead of acquiring reliable Vets who know how to win in FA and trades.

McDaniels, Richards, Cody Martin, JT Thor, Bryce McGowens, KJ Simpson, Kalkbrenner, Sion James...

Those guys have played wayyyyyyy too many minutes, taken up way too many roster spots over the years for Charlotte.
That doesn't even include later 1st round picks like Liam McNeely and Nick Smith Jr.

We are probably top 3 in the NBA if I had to guess in minutes played by 2nd round picks last 5 years.

I mean we have 35 starts this year by guys drafted in 2nd the round the past 2 years. Just another reason why this team is bad.

I know you citizens the franchise for it's history of mismanaging resources, surely the 2nds that were traded for cash qualify, especially if those reliable vets never materialized? Also, I think there are a lot of complaints about the rostered vets bc the ones willing to sign here don't have a lot of teams banging down their door?

[JMAC3]

Hot take, but 2nd round picks are overrated. Yes, every year 4-5 2nd rounders will be solid hits and it is nice to find a gem such as a Herb Jones, Nembhard, Camara, Ajay Mitchell etc...However, Charlotte has become overly reliant on 2nd rounders and we consistently are giving them large minutes instead of acquiring reliable Vets who know how to win in FA and trades.

McDaniels, Richards, Cody Martin, JT Thor, Bryce McGowens, KJ Simpson, Kalkbrenner, Sion James...

Those guys have played wayyyyyyy too many minutes, taken up way too many roster spots over the years for Charlotte.
That doesn't even include later 1st round picks like Liam McNeely and Nick Smith Jr.

We are probably top 3 in the NBA if I had to guess in minutes played by 2nd round picks last 5 years.

I mean we have 35 starts this year by guys drafted in 2nd the round the past 2 years. Just another reason why this team is bad.

I know you citizens the franchise for it's history of mismanaging resources, surely the 2nds that were traded for cash qualify, especially if those reliable vets never materialized? Also, I think there are a lot of complaints about the rostered vets bc the ones willing to sign here don't have a lot of teams banging down their door?

I am not saying I want to go back to the days of selling picks, but we used to actually have a few micro signings in FA actually hit because we had roster spots available and playing time available. Now we are having to waive guys just to get to 15 legal players because we have a lot of picks taking up roster.

We used to have guys like Ramon Sessions, Brian Roberts, Marvin Williams, Josh McRoberts, Jeremy Lin who we would sign for pennies and then overperform. Belineli and Jeremy Lamb were solid grabs for super cheap in deals that gave us more than Nick Smith Jr and KJ Simpson ever did.

[fatlever]

Belineli cost a 1st round pick for 1 year. That was an awful transaction.

Players drafted after the 22nd pick we traded
Siakam
Dejounte
Brogdon
Zubac

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[JMAC3]

Belineli cost a 1st round pick for 1 year. That was an awful transaction.

Players drafted after the 22nd pick we traded
Siakam
Dejounte
Brogdon
Zubac

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Yeah, we could have totally had one of the best case scenarios, no way we take Brice Johnson, Ante Zizic, Malachi Richardson or Skal Labissere who all went in the next 7 picks.

[yosemiteben]

Belineli cost a 1st round pick for 1 year. That was an awful transaction.

Players drafted after the 22nd pick we traded
Siakam
Dejounte
Brogdon
Zubac

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Yeah, we could have totally had one of the best case scenarios, no way we take Brice Johnson, Ante Zizic, Malachi Richardson or Skal Labissere who all went in the next 7 picks.

Just to confirm, are you advocating for trading 1st round draft picks in exchange for non-starting caliber vets? I didn't think that was your argument, but if not I don't get this response here.

[wilson115]

I would say we drafted better, but it doesn't matter if you are going to do the minimum effort everywhere else. Duncan Robinson, Malik Beasley, Hardaway, Schroeder and Harris are real vets, who played in the playoffs and are professional role players. Also, got a coach that was proven to have success. I would take every single one of those guys over Josh Green, Taj, Plumlee and Pat.

Grant Williams was brought in by previous regime. The Hornets have been unserious since Peterson/Lee took over.

You mean a bunch of cast-offs let go by their old teams, with only one of them lasting more than a year with the team. They even gave up a 1st-rounder in Quentin Grimes (currently averaging 16.5ppg for Philly) for one year of Hardaway. Not very smart for the long-term.

The Pistons are the poster child for getting lucky (Cade leap, East in disarray with all the injuries) while getting away with doing the "bare minimum".

[Braggins]

I think the biggest non-health related differences between Detroit and Charlotte right now is that Detroit got a new coach and didn't trade Jalen Duren for Liam McNeeley.

[Diop]

Cade made the jump, Lamelo got injured

[JMAC3]

Belineli cost a 1st round pick for 1 year. That was an awful transaction.

Players drafted after the 22nd pick we traded
Siakam
Dejounte
Brogdon
Zubac

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Yeah, we could have totally had one of the best case scenarios, no way we take Brice Johnson, Ante Zizic, Malachi Richardson or Skal Labissere who all went in the next 7 picks.

Just to confirm, are you advocating for trading 1st round draft picks in exchange for non-starting caliber vets? I didn't think that was your argument, but if not I don't get this response here.

I am saying putting a ton of hope in late firsts and second rounders to play key minutes every year isn't a route to success. We have done, are doing it and we have sucked.

[chrbal]

You need Ball to take ownership of the franchise like Cade did.Detroit doesn’t have 3 guys taking about 8 3 point attempts per game shooting under 31%. And you guys need playable veterans, Plumlee and Connaughton don’t count. And for better or worse, your team doesn’t have a dirty work guy like Stewart on the roster.

[JMAC3]

I would say we drafted better, but it doesn't matter if you are going to do the minimum effort everywhere else. Duncan Robinson, Malik Beasley, Hardaway, Schroeder and Harris are real vets, who played in the playoffs and are professional role players. Also, got a coach that was proven to have success. I would take every single one of those guys over Josh Green, Taj, Plumlee and Pat.

Grant Williams was brought in by previous regime. The Hornets have been unserious since Peterson/Lee took over.

You mean a bunch of cast-offs let go by their old teams, with only one of them lasting more than a year with the team. They even gave up a 1st-rounder in Quentin Grimes (currently averaging 16.5ppg for Philly) for one year of Hardaway. Not very smart for the long-term.

The Pistons are the poster child for getting lucky (Cade leap, East in disarray with all the injuries) while getting away with doing the "bare minimum".

Yeah, the Pistons didn't operate perfectly by any means and they are still the #1 seed in the East, because they are consistently trying to improve and yes these cast offs are helping teams win games. Hardaway is the 4th leading scorer on Nuggets this year shooting 42% from three, not every move has to be sexy to be a good team.

We never hit singles or doubles like that. Instead let's go for the homerun and start the 34th pick from day 1, that is the difference between a team that is serious about winning and the Hornets who are just happy to be around and employed.

[yosemiteben]

Yeah, we could have totally had one of the best case scenarios, no way we take Brice Johnson, Ante Zizic, Malachi Richardson or Skal Labissere who all went in the next 7 picks.

Just to confirm, are you advocating for trading 1st round draft picks in exchange for non-starting caliber vets? I didn't think that was your argument, but if not I don't get this response here.

I am saying putting a ton of hope in late firsts and second rounders to play key minutes every year isn't a route to success. We have done, are doing it and we have sucked.

Oh, ok, so another critique of something that no one here is saying. Just making sure.

Fat was saying the Belinelli trade was dumb. In light of this ^ clarification, seems like what you are saying wasn't actually responsive to his point.

[JustBuzzin]

Cade made the jump, Lamelo got injured

LaMelo made the jump and got injured.

[JMAC3]

Just to confirm, are you advocating for trading 1st round draft picks in exchange for non-starting caliber vets? I didn't think that was your argument, but if not I don't get this response here.

I am saying putting a ton of hope in late firsts and second rounders to play key minutes every year isn't a route to success. We have done, are doing it and we have sucked.

Oh, ok, so another critique of something that no one here is saying. Just making sure.

Fat was saying the Belinelli trade was dumb. In light of this ^ clarification, seems like your post wasn't actually responsive to his point.

Yes, generally I think looking at the next 20 picks in the draft and selecting the best case scenarios in hindsight seems like a bad process to judge transactions. I am merely pointing out that there was FAR MORE BAD picks than good picks, but I am sure the Hornets with all of great history would have totally nailed the pick.

This is also just one instance, I am saying generally we tend to over rely on young players to play major minutes and then we wonder why the team isn't good. Whereas teams like the Pistons have leaned into playing more Veterans around Cade and they have had a lot of success with that strategy.

But yes, if all that is too much thinking about team building and setting expectations. We can all say Cade> Melo and call it a day.

[yosemiteben]

I am saying putting a ton of hope in late firsts and second rounders to play key minutes every year isn't a route to success. We have done, are doing it and we have sucked.

Oh, ok, so another critique of something that no one here is saying. Just making sure.

Fat was saying the Belinelli trade was dumb. In light of this ^ clarification, seems like your post wasn't actually responsive to his point.

Yes, generally I think looking at the next 20 picks in the draft and selecting the best case scenarios in hindsight seems like a bad process to judge transactions. I am merely pointing out that there was FAR MORE BAD picks than good picks, but I am sure the Hornets with all of great history would have totally nailed the pick.

Yeah, teams miss on draft picks, the idea is you keep rolling the dice and hoping that something hits and you get solid production on cost-controlled contracts (I know you are aware of this). But you are here defending us trading a 1st for a 30 year old vet that started a total of 40 games over the prior 3 seasons and was coming off a season posting a FG% of 39% and 3PT% of 30%. That was objectively a dumb thing to do.

This is also just one instance, I am saying generally we tend to over rely on young players to play major minutes and then we wonder why the team isn't good. Whereas teams like the Pistons have leaned into playing more Veterans around Cade and they have had a lot of success with that strategy.

But yes, if all that is too much thinking about team building and setting expectations. We can all say Cade> Melo and call it a day.

My point was you just didn't respond to fat's point. Feel free to think and talk about team building, but you didn't say any of that in your post.

[fatlever]

Let's not forget that we gifted the Pistons their soon to be all star Center in another one of our dumbest trades of all time.


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[JMAC3]

Oh, ok, so another critique of something that no one here is saying. Just making sure.

Fat was saying the Belinelli trade was dumb. In light of this ^ clarification, seems like your post wasn't actually responsive to his point.

Yes, generally I think looking at the next 20 picks in the draft and selecting the best case scenarios in hindsight seems like a bad process to judge transactions. I am merely pointing out that there was FAR MORE BAD picks than good picks, but I am sure the Hornets with all of great history would have totally nailed the pick.

Yeah, teams miss on draft picks, the idea is you keep rolling the dice and hoping that something hits and you get solid production on cost-controlled contracts (I know you are aware of this). But you are here defending us trading a 1st for a 30 year old vet that started a total of 40 games over the prior 3 seasons and was coming off a season posting a FG% of 39% and 3PT% of 30%. That was objectively a dumb thing to do.

This is also just one instance, I am saying generally we tend to over rely on young players to play major minutes and then we wonder why the team isn't good. Whereas teams like the Pistons have leaned into playing more Veterans around Cade and they have had a lot of success with that strategy.

But yes, if all that is too much thinking about team building and setting expectations. We can all say Cade> Melo and call it a day.

My point was you just didn't respond to fat's point. Feel free to think and talk about team building, but you didn't say any of that in your post.

We also traded Belinelli the next year for Dwight Howard, who was actually pretty productive the year he was here.
Was our 2nd best player by EPM that year behind Kemba.

68th% Off EPM
93rd Def EPM
85% Overall EPM