Fake Trade Thread 2014-15

[Braggins]

I didn't say Smith was as good of a shooter as Marvin. I literally said that he is good enough to keep defenses honest if he takes good looks. I said he has had 30%+ on 2-3 attempts seasons a few times and that is "about" what we should expect from Marvin, both of which are true. If you feel generous and count the season he shot 29.9% he has had four season at or above 30%. His shot isn't bad by any means its just not good enough to use more than sparingly which has generally been the case for his career, unless we are pretending he has played one NBA season and that was in 2013-2014 for the Pistons, which you are apparently doing. You are judging him as an overall player based on that one season. If he plays smart (which I admit is an "if") it wouldn't hurt our spacing to have him instead of Marvin especially when you consider that he is actually capable of creating and causing the defense to rotate as opposed to Marvin who pretty much isn't going to give us anything other than some occasional 3's. Marvin isn't even some kind of impressive floor spacer or anything and that is apparently what his calling card is supposed to be at this point. Marvin Williams isn't going to make teams scared to double team Al. Teams will pack the paint against us either way and its not like Al even passes out of double teams anyways. Smith has been a far better player than Marvin ever was for most of his career (remember, he played in the NBA before 2013). We wouldn't need him to be a first option or anything close to our leading scorer. He can make a big impact being a 12 shots a game guy and defensive stopper. Obviously if Smith came in and couldn't be controlled and was hoisting up terribly jumpers it would be very bad. I find it hard to believe that he is completely broken from one season though. If he came in and was Josh Smith from a couple years ago and our chemistry remained in tact we are possibly talking about a 50 win team that would have an outside shot at making it to the finals. To say that Smith isn't capable of being anything more than a slight upgrade over Marvin seems a little out there to me. Sorry for the long posts. I've been dying to have something Hornets related to talk about.

To look at the offensive production of these two OVER THEIR ENTIRE TIME IN THE LEAGUE and say Smith is way better is just awful. Smith has no brain on the offensive end of the court and has only had one season where he was smart enough to stop shooting. If YOU would actually look at the numbers this is very very very very very easy to see and why pretty much everyone wants nothing to do with this guy. You keep saying one season but on his last 4 seasons he has been jacking up threes. He is a bone head getting paid 14 million a year for the next three years. If you actually look at the numbers and what he does on the court he is not a huge upgrade and for his price tag is actually worse.

Smith has put up better numbers because he has jacked up more shots. If they shot the same number per game then Marvin would win out because of his range and % advantages. Marvin was brought in for a purpose and for what they want he is better than Smith will ever be.

Josh Smith is a role player on a star contract. If a coach wanted him to be a helpful player he would have to spend an entire season beating him over the head after he screwed up and took a dumb shot. He is not a good fit nor is he a good value.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

[Braggins]

Defense was fine last season and we got a better defender at the SG spot and a defender who is just as good at PF. It isn't like McRoberts was a big time stopper.

Marvin probably is worse on defense at PF than McBob but it isn't by a whole lot. I'm more worried about what is going to happen when the entire league starts to pick up on what the smart teams did to us last year and force Al to play PnR defense all game while we have no rim protector to back him up. That is why teams with PnR ballhandlers who can hit the mid range pullup or are Lebron just absolutely worked us. I think our scheme and overall personnel are good enough that we will still have a very good defense but we might not be as good as we think we should be once more teams figure out how to break us down. This will only be made worse by being even more soft inside than we were last year. Having an actual good defender at PF who can protect the rim would help. I wish Vonleh could somehow be ready by the all star break.

There is not a player out there that can fix this problem by themselves. This is a Al problem not a PF problem. Al has to have a stretch 4 to clear him space because of his lack of speed and needs a rim protector because of his lack of speed. There are really not many guys like this in the league. The best fit next to Al would be Ibaka and other than that you get one or the other. If Vonleh can learn to be that it would be great but by the time he is ready Al may be done.

Agree. I think Anthony Davis could pretty much give us everything Al forces us to want from our PF. I do think there are some players that can give us a lot of what we need but not everything.

[BeesWax]

Marvin probably is worse on defense at PF than McBob but it isn't by a whole lot. I'm more worried about what is going to happen when the entire league starts to pick up on what the smart teams did to us last year and force Al to play PnR defense all game while we have no rim protector to back him up. That is why teams with PnR ballhandlers who can hit the mid range pullup or are Lebron just absolutely worked us. I think our scheme and overall personnel are good enough that we will still have a very good defense but we might not be as good as we think we should be once more teams figure out how to break us down. This will only be made worse by being even more soft inside than we were last year. Having an actual good defender at PF who can protect the rim would help. I wish Vonleh could somehow be ready by the all star break.

There is not a player out there that can fix this problem by themselves. This is a Al problem not a PF problem. Al has to have a stretch 4 to clear him space because of his lack of speed and needs a rim protector because of his lack of speed. There are really not many guys like this in the league. The best fit next to Al would be Ibaka and other than that you get one or the other. If Vonleh can learn to be that it would be great but by the time he is ready Al may be done.

Agree. I think Anthony Davis could pretty much give us everything Al forces us to want from our PF. I do think there are some players that can give us a lot of what we need but not everything.

I did not think about Davis but he and Ibaka are the only two players who aren't just one or the other. We went Williams because it appears the coaching staff thought stretching the floor was more important than having a rim protector.

[BeesWax]

I didn't say Smith was as good of a shooter as Marvin. I literally said that he is good enough to keep defenses honest if he takes good looks. I said he has had 30%+ on 2-3 attempts seasons a few times and that is "about" what we should expect from Marvin, both of which are true. If you feel generous and count the season he shot 29.9% he has had four season at or above 30%. His shot isn't bad by any means its just not good enough to use more than sparingly which has generally been the case for his career, unless we are pretending he has played one NBA season and that was in 2013-2014 for the Pistons, which you are apparently doing. You are judging him as an overall player based on that one season. If he plays smart (which I admit is an "if") it wouldn't hurt our spacing to have him instead of Marvin especially when you consider that he is actually capable of creating and causing the defense to rotate as opposed to Marvin who pretty much isn't going to give us anything other than some occasional 3's. Marvin isn't even some kind of impressive floor spacer or anything and that is apparently what his calling card is supposed to be at this point. Marvin Williams isn't going to make teams scared to double team Al. Teams will pack the paint against us either way and its not like Al even passes out of double teams anyways. Smith has been a far better player than Marvin ever was for most of his career (remember, he played in the NBA before 2013). We wouldn't need him to be a first option or anything close to our leading scorer. He can make a big impact being a 12 shots a game guy and defensive stopper. Obviously if Smith came in and couldn't be controlled and was hoisting up terribly jumpers it would be very bad. I find it hard to believe that he is completely broken from one season though. If he came in and was Josh Smith from a couple years ago and our chemistry remained in tact we are possibly talking about a 50 win team that would have an outside shot at making it to the finals. To say that Smith isn't capable of being anything more than a slight upgrade over Marvin seems a little out there to me. Sorry for the long posts. I've been dying to have something Hornets related to talk about.

To look at the offensive production of these two OVER THEIR ENTIRE TIME IN THE LEAGUE and say Smith is way better is just awful. Smith has no brain on the offensive end of the court and has only had one season where he was smart enough to stop shooting. If YOU would actually look at the numbers this is very very very very very easy to see and why pretty much everyone wants nothing to do with this guy. You keep saying one season but on his last 4 seasons he has been jacking up threes. He is a bone head getting paid 14 million a year for the next three years. If you actually look at the numbers and what he does on the court he is not a huge upgrade and for his price tag is actually worse.

Smith has put up better numbers because he has jacked up more shots. If they shot the same number per game then Marvin would win out because of his range and % advantages. Marvin was brought in for a purpose and for what they want he is better than Smith will ever be.

Josh Smith is a role player on a star contract. If a coach wanted him to be a helpful player he would have to spend an entire season beating him over the head after he screwed up and took a dumb shot. He is not a good fit nor is he a good value.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

That is fine. The numbers fully support Smith as a poor shot selection chucker though. Look at any number and ask who you want on the offensive end. I would bet every coach in the NBA would prefer to have Williams on offense and Smith on defense. You keep saying if we can get him to take less shots and be smarter but how many years have coaches tried to do that and failed. The guy just plays dumb. I would rather have a less talent intelligent player who plays within his skill set than a more talents dumb player who actually hurts you on one end of the floor.

[Braggins]

To look at the offensive production of these two OVER THEIR ENTIRE TIME IN THE LEAGUE and say Smith is way better is just awful. Smith has no brain on the offensive end of the court and has only had one season where he was smart enough to stop shooting. If YOU would actually look at the numbers this is very very very very very easy to see and why pretty much everyone wants nothing to do with this guy. You keep saying one season but on his last 4 seasons he has been jacking up threes. He is a bone head getting paid 14 million a year for the next three years. If you actually look at the numbers and what he does on the court he is not a huge upgrade and for his price tag is actually worse.

Smith has put up better numbers because he has jacked up more shots. If they shot the same number per game then Marvin would win out because of his range and % advantages. Marvin was brought in for a purpose and for what they want he is better than Smith will ever be.

Josh Smith is a role player on a star contract. If a coach wanted him to be a helpful player he would have to spend an entire season beating him over the head after he screwed up and took a dumb shot. He is not a good fit nor is he a good value.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

That is fine. The numbers fully support Smith as a poor shot selection chucker though. Look at any number and ask who you want on the offensive end. I would bet every coach in the NBA would prefer to have Williams on offense and Smith on defense. You keep saying if we can get him to take less shots and be smarter but how many years have coaches tried to do that and failed. The guy just plays dumb. I would rather have a less talent intelligent player who plays within his skill set than a more talents dumb player who actually hurts you on one end of the floor.

Ok then. The numbers. 8.1, 9.7, 13.8, 14.0, 12.3, 12.3, 13.5, 16.7, 15.6, 16.0. Those are his fg attempts per game for every season hes played. Career average is 13.2 Those are hardly chucker numbers. His career FG% is 45.9% which isn't as good as it should be if his shot selection was better (it admittedly has been less than good at times) but it certainly isn't bad. His last five seasons in Atlanta his fg%'s were 46.5%, 45.8%, 47.7%, 50.5%, and 49.2%. Horford was injured a lot in those last three seasons where his attemps went up and percentage dropped due to needing to take more of a scoring role than he had in the past. Horford missed the entirety of one of those seasons and yet Atlanta was still a very competitive playoff team. His 3pt attempts every season are .3, 1.4, 2.1, 1.2, 1.3, 0.1, 2.0, 1.7, 2.6, and 3.4. He averages 1.6 per game for his career. So, before last season he wasn't even taking that many 3's and his percentages were acceptable for a PF on low volume. He shot 30.3%, 25.7%, 33.1% 0%(0-7), and 29.9%. Again, not great but solid for a PF taking two or fewer attempts per game and good enough to keep defenses honest. So, youre wrong. His shot selection has been an issue at times, he isn't the most efficient, and he isn't as good of an outside as Marvin Williams but for the most part he hasn't been terribly inefficient like you are claiming and he has clearly been a very good player for the vast majority of his career. Marvin isn't even in his league... People have always gotten on Smith for not being as good as he could be but that doesn't mean he wasn't still good. On offense, I clearly want the guy who is a freak athlete with great size who can handle the ball, attack the rim, make plays for others, and hit some mid range jumpers and occasional threes as opposed to the undersized guy who can't do anything except shoot 35% from three on two attempts a game. If Smith is completely broken and will forever be as bad as he was last season then sure I'll take Messy Marv.

[BeesWax]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

That is fine. The numbers fully support Smith as a poor shot selection chucker though. Look at any number and ask who you want on the offensive end. I would bet every coach in the NBA would prefer to have Williams on offense and Smith on defense. You keep saying if we can get him to take less shots and be smarter but how many years have coaches tried to do that and failed. The guy just plays dumb. I would rather have a less talent intelligent player who plays within his skill set than a more talents dumb player who actually hurts you on one end of the floor.

Ok then. The numbers. 8.1, 9.7, 13.8, 14.0, 12.3, 12.3, 13.5, 16.7, 15.6, 16.0. Those are his fg attempts per game for every season hes played. Career average is 13.2 Those are hardly chucker numbers. His career FG% is 45.9% which isn't as good as it should be if his shot selection was better (it admittedly has been less than good at times) but it certainly isn't bad. His last five seasons in Atlanta his fg%'s were 46.5%, 45.8%, 47.7%, 50.5%, and 49.2%. Horford was injured a lot in those last three seasons where his attemps went up and percentage dropped due to needing to take more of a scoring role than he had in the past. Horford missed the entirety of one of those seasons and yet Atlanta was still a very competitive playoff team. His 3pt attempts every season are .3, 1.4, 2.1, 1.2, 1.3, 0.1, 2.0, 1.7, 2.6, and 3.4. He averages 1.6 per game for his career. So, before last season he wasn't even taking that many 3's and his percentages were acceptable for a PF on low volume. He shot 30.3%, 25.7%, 33.1% 0%(0-7), and 29.9%. Again, not great but solid for a PF taking two or fewer attempts per game and good enough to keep defenses honest. So, youre wrong. His shot selection has been an issue at times, he isn't the most efficient, and he isn't as good of an outside as Marvin Williams but for the most part he hasn't been terribly inefficient like you are claiming and he has clearly been a very good player for the vast majority of his career. Marvin isn't even in his league... People have always gotten on Smith for not being as good as he could be but that doesn't mean he wasn't still good. On offense, I clearly want the guy who is a freak athlete with great size who can handle the ball, attack the rim, make plays for others, and hit some mid range jumpers and occasional threes as opposed to the undersized guy who can't do anything except shoot 35% from three on two attempts a game. If Smith is completely broken and will forever be as bad as he was last season then sure I'll take Messy Marv.

When you look at the teams he plays on where MANY MANY other players on his team that shot better and his shot chart he is a chucker. He shoots great at the rim when he attacks. Problem with the moron is he refuses to do this like he should. Instead he drifts out and imagines that he is a stretch 4. The minute a shot leaves his hand from anywhere outside the lane the coach should bench him and pop him on the back of the head. This should have started to happen years ago. CLEARLY he has been a terrible offensive player for the majority of his ENTIRE career and the numbers fully support this as does anyone who ever talks about his stupid offensive game. I love how people call Williams "Messy Marv" then talk about Smith like he is something special. I would rather have Messy Marv that Stupid Smith any day of the week. For his entire career minus one season Stupid Smith has been a Stupid offensive player and a talented defensive player. He is still very one sided and ALWAYS has been. His true shooting percentages rank down the line as well. I would not be surprised if Zeller has a better TS% this year than Smiths career average because he at least learned to play within himself. Until you can prove Smith has grown a brain and will be able to control himself on offense like he never has before he is just not bright enough to be effective as what we need. They want a stretch 4 and when you let Smith think he can do that he hurts his team more than he helps them.

[BeesWax]

So does anyone think we will make a trade?

[JDR720]

So does anyone think we will make a trade?

I doubt it....but if we do it will a guard for a big

[BeesWax]

So does anyone think we will make a trade?

I doubt it....but if we do it will a guard for a big

Kind of what I was thinking. At most I think it would be something small around a vet 4/5.

[JDR720]

I wonder if those Josh Smith trade rumors have any legitimacy, part of me wants to see how he would do here....and the other part says don't touch it with a 50 ft pole

[BeesWax]

I wonder if those Josh Smith trade rumors have any legitimacy, part of me wants to see how he would do here....and the other part says don't touch it with a 50 ft pole

I am positive that Detroit has called every team out there trying to unload him for anything. The problem is what they would have to give up to a team to take him on. Being one of the worst contracts in the NBA has to make him very hard to move.

[TheKingofSting]

Please no on Smith.

[BobsBuddy]

Josh Smith......NO Way

[robbie84]

I come in peace guys- Celtics fan. Saw some of the Josh Smith discussion here and thought I'd post a trade I saw on a Celtics forum. We've had similar discussions over the years, particularly since the rumor came out in 2012 that Danny Ainge tried to trade Pierce for Smith with ATL.
The hard part with Smith is getting him to take high % shots around the rim. When he did that in Atlanta he was an efficient offensive player, and then he fell in love with the 16 foot jumpshot ugh. Defensively though, he'd be a nice complement to Big Al in the form of a rim protecting PF. As he gets older and wiser (hopefully), he MAY be able to be coached to stay around the rim on offense.
Anyway, just throwing this out there to gauge reaction from Charlotte fans. As usual with Mr Smith, it's often love or hate.
Only questionable part is getting salaries outgoing from Charlotte to match- they would probably have to gain a trade exception somehow.

Charlotte gets:
*Jeff Green (expiring)
*Josh Smith
*Clippers pick (owned by Celtics)
*Detroit 2015 first round pick
*trade exception from Celtics via Courtney Lee trade ($4 million)

Detroit gets:
*Rondo (expiring)
*Bass (expiring)


Celtics get:
*Vonleh
*Gerld Henderson
*Gary Neal
*Jonas Jerebko


Why?

Detroit: moves Josh Smith with Monroe back, and gets Rondo for a season to play with Drummond+Monroe. Jennings is an expensive 6th man or SG but you're moving Smith out of the crowded front court cheaply.

Charlotte: gets rim protecting power forward and scorer in Smith. They've now got 5 very solid players and are a legitimate playoff threat with their main guys signed long term. Very strong defensively.
Green is nice upgrade and they are almost like a non superstar Detroit Pistons championship team with 4 very strong 'almost All Star' level guys. Ultimately they'd hope that Lance takes the All Star step which he may well do.

Celtics: get some value back for Rondo and Green before they hit the open market, and get a very good piece in Vonleh. C's fans don't really want Henderson but we'd need someone to make salaries work.
Or would you just stay away from Smith altogether and Vonleh is untouchable?
Green is expiring, but your starting line up of:

Walker
Lance
Green
Smith
Big AL

is pretty nasty, particularly if you can get Smith to take more high percentage shots. He also makes your defense one of the best in the league (even next to Big AL) doesn't he?
You're essentially sending out Vonleh and Henderson for Green, Smith and two first round picks. Would adding James Young be sweet enough or is Vonleh untouchable?

[JDR720]

I would pass on that trade

[NCHeels2008]

i actually think that deal is atrocious for the Hornets, I'm not a Josh Smith hater; but you're sending the 9th pick out (who is cost controlled), and great bench players for Jeff Green (who you will have to overpay to keep) and an already overpaid Josh Smith.

[robbie84]

i actually think that deal is atrocious for the Hornets, I'm not a Josh Smith hater; but you're sending the 9th pick out (who is cost controlled), and great bench players for Jeff Green (who you will have to overpay to keep) and an already overpaid Josh Smith.

Would it be any better if the Hornets kept MKG and sent some 'trash' to make the salaries work?
So essentially Vonleh and Henderson for Green, Smith and two first round picks?

[TheKingofSting]

We don't need Josh period!..

[Dancingpanda]

And im pretty sure we want to hold onto Vonleh. The plan is to keep this young team that can compete in the playoffs while they grow and whom can potentially compete in the future. Trading For green and/or Smith who are "win now" type players would only set us up to fail.

[Liver_Pooty]

Id rather hang myself with wax dental floss than trade for Josh Smith and his contract. We have great flexibility going forwards in 2016 and such. No need in screwing it up for a guy, who is indeed a very talented player, but has the basketball IQ of a roach and shoots outside shots like he truly believes he is Dirk Nowitzki.