Return to Sender: The Mark Williams Thread

[JustBuzzin]

A unprotected Lakers pick that will likely have Luka and another star on it doesn't seem like good value in my mind.

Lakers aren't some bum franchise they will always be competing as long as they have stars. That unprotected pick was fools gold.

[KembaWalker]

Yeah he'll get over it. He's locked to us for the next year and a half plus restricted free agency.

Give it a few months and no one will even be talking about it.

Whether Mark likes it or not we control his destiny for the foreseeable future, not him.

Theres a gulf of difference between "well he has to play for us because he has no choice so get ****" versus "I don't understand why he'd be unhappy with the team"

That is how it was, has always been, for all rookies on a RFA contract. It is not like he is being oppressed compared to other players. The market determines his value and until he hits the open market he is under contract on his rookie deal.

At best, the argument against us, is that by trading Mark his injury red flags were made public and someone won't overpay him if his injuries should prevent that. That shouldn't be on us, that is on the player to be healthy and prove they are healthy by playing games. Not sitting out for reasons that aren't basketball related.

The clear answer is to play for the team that is paying his contract and prove what he is worth on his next contract by playing consistently and playing well.

"well Mark, its kind of your fault for failing the physical yeah? so why not come back and suit up okay?"
gosh i wonder why he wouldnt be happy to hear this and come running back to play

[luciano-davidwesley]

Theres a gulf of difference between "well he has to play for us because he has no choice so get ****" versus "I don't understand why he'd be unhappy with the team"

That is how it was, has always been, for all rookies on a RFA contract. It is not like he is being oppressed compared to other players. The market determines his value and until he hits the open market he is under contract on his rookie deal.

At best, the argument against us, is that by trading Mark his injury red flags were made public and someone won't overpay him if his injuries should prevent that. That shouldn't be on us, that is on the player to be healthy and prove they are healthy by playing games. Not sitting out for reasons that aren't basketball related.

The clear answer is to play for the team that is paying his contract and prove what he is worth on his next contract by playing consistently and playing well.

"well Mark, its kind of your fault for failing the physical yeah? so why not come back and suit up okay?"
gosh i wonder why he wouldnt be happy to hear this and come running back to play

You do realise people don't have to say exactly what they're thinking to other people right?

[KembaWalker]

That is how it was, has always been, for all rookies on a RFA contract. It is not like he is being oppressed compared to other players. The market determines his value and until he hits the open market he is under contract on his rookie deal.

At best, the argument against us, is that by trading Mark his injury red flags were made public and someone won't overpay him if his injuries should prevent that. That shouldn't be on us, that is on the player to be healthy and prove they are healthy by playing games. Not sitting out for reasons that aren't basketball related.

The clear answer is to play for the team that is paying his contract and prove what he is worth on his next contract by playing consistently and playing well.

"well Mark, its kind of your fault for failing the physical yeah? so why not come back and suit up okay?"
gosh i wonder why he wouldnt be happy to hear this and come running back to play

You do realise people don't have to say exactly what they're thinking to other people right?

I do realize that, Mark probably does too which is why he didn't come back excited to play immediately despite the teams press release talking about how happy they are to have him back

[MasterIchiro]

I have yet to here anyone explain how the trade made any sense from our side.

You don't trade that kind of young talent especially at the center position. Something was wrong with Mark for us to move off him for a 23yr old rookie and a 1st.

Cmon guys everyone wants to ignore the obvious why did we try to trade a healthy young center?

They liked Knecth and thought the value for Mark was high enough to justify the risk that he stays healthy and performs at a high level. I get not agreeing, but it does not seem like rocket science to figure out why they might have thought it was a good idea.

Coming from a guy who was high on drafting Knecht no this didn't make sense. Mark is viewed as a better player with a much higher ceiling. Not to mention Knecht is the same age as Mark!

Also we have Miller/Mann who play the same positions. There was no need to make Knecht the centerpiece of a Mark Williams trade.

Something is wrong with Mark's long-term health this trade made no basketball sense. If you ask me they didn't want to pay Mark long-term because they feared his long-term health. You can't make sense of this trade if we just looking at it from an basketball standpoint. We had a clear core 3 with Melo/Miller/Mark. They broke it up for a 23yr old rookie who is only known for scoring and a 1st round pick that probably want have any value with Luka now on the Lakers.

Sorry it just doesn't make sense.

The value of the unprotected 1st settled at (3) protected 1st round picks via Suns - Utah trade earlier in the deadline trade season.

Knecht is in year one of a rookie scale deal. Mark is due a raise 3 years earlier. Knecht has held first round value and proved he can perform in the rotation of a playoff team.

The swap is unprotected, and can be flipped well in advance of 2030 should Luka go out with an extended injury like he did this year.

So Mark returned an equivalent of up to (3-5) 1st round picks.

The Lakers needed Mark more than any team, which is why they coughed up the same level of longterm asset value as they did when they acquired Luka.

Then they sobered up. They took an inventory of outgoing assets and reclaimed them.

[yosemiteben]

I have yet to here anyone explain how the trade made any sense from our side.

You don't trade that kind of young talent especially at the center position. Something was wrong with Mark for us to move off him for a 23yr old rookie and a 1st.

Cmon guys everyone wants to ignore the obvious why did we try to trade a healthy young center?

They liked Knecth and thought the value for Mark was high enough to justify the risk that he stays healthy and performs at a high level. I get not agreeing, but it does not seem like rocket science to figure out why they might have thought it was a good idea.

Coming from a guy who was high on drafting Knecht no this didn't make sense. Mark is viewed as a better player with a much higher ceiling. Not to mention Knecht is the same age as Mark!

Also we have Miller/Mann who play the same positions. There was no need to make Knecht the centerpiece of a Mark Williams trade.

Something is wrong with Mark's long-term health this trade made no basketball sense. If you ask me they didn't want to pay Mark long-term because they feared his long-term health. You can't make sense of this trade if we just looking at it from an basketball standpoint. We had a clear core 3 with Melo/Miller/Mark. They broke it up for a 23yr old rookie who is only known for scoring and a 1st round pick that probably want have any value with Luka now on the Lakers.

Sorry it just doesn't make sense.

I get that maybe it's extremely difficult for you to believe, but it's possible that you and our FO value assets differently.

[JustBuzzin]

"well Mark, its kind of your fault for failing the physical yeah? so why not come back and suit up okay?"
gosh i wonder why he wouldnt be happy to hear this and come running back to play

You do realise people don't have to say exactly what they're thinking to other people right?

I do realize that, Mark probably does too which is why he didn't come back excited to play immediately despite the teams press release talking about how happy they are to have him back

Poor guy was excited to be living in LA playing on a contender. I would be pissed to.

Also LeBron never said his name when the Lakers media were discussing this deal. He kept referring to Mark as "kid". Might not mean much, but it didn't seem like LeBron was exactly thrilled about the trade.

[luciano-davidwesley]

They liked Knecth and thought the value for Mark was high enough to justify the risk that he stays healthy and performs at a high level. I get not agreeing, but it does not seem like rocket science to figure out why they might have thought it was a good idea.

Coming from a guy who was high on drafting Knecht no this didn't make sense. Mark is viewed as a better player with a much higher ceiling. Not to mention Knecht is the same age as Mark!

Also we have Miller/Mann who play the same positions. There was no need to make Knecht the centerpiece of a Mark Williams trade.

Something is wrong with Mark's long-term health this trade made no basketball sense. If you ask me they didn't want to pay Mark long-term because they feared his long-term health. You can't make sense of this trade if we just looking at it from an basketball standpoint. We had a clear core 3 with Melo/Miller/Mark. They broke it up for a 23yr old rookie who is only known for scoring and a 1st round pick that probably want have any value with Luka now on the Lakers.

Sorry it just doesn't make sense.

The value of the unprotected 1st settled at (3) protected 1st round picks via Suns - Utah trade earlier in the deadline trade season.

Knecht is in year one of a rookie scale deal. Mark is due a raise 3 years earlier. Knecht has held first round value and proved he can perform in the rotation of a playoff team.

The swap is unprotected, and can be flipped well in advance of 2030 should Luka go out with an extended injury like he did this year.

So Mark returned an equivalent of up to (4-5) 1st round picks.

The Lakers needed Mark more than any team, which is why they coughed up the same level of longterm asset value as they did when they acquired Luka.

Then they sobered up. They took an inventory of outgoing assets and reclaimed them.

To call a LAL 2030 unprotected first and a pick swap the equivalent of 4-5 firsts is a big reach.

Maybe 3-4 EXTREMELY protected, guaranteed late firsts. That being said i think teams would rather the unprotected Suns first you reference over the Lakers unprotected first. The Suns are screwed in a few years. So i think it's not necessarily an apples to apples comparison.

[luciano-davidwesley]

They liked Knecth and thought the value for Mark was high enough to justify the risk that he stays healthy and performs at a high level. I get not agreeing, but it does not seem like rocket science to figure out why they might have thought it was a good idea.

Coming from a guy who was high on drafting Knecht no this didn't make sense. Mark is viewed as a better player with a much higher ceiling. Not to mention Knecht is the same age as Mark!

Also we have Miller/Mann who play the same positions. There was no need to make Knecht the centerpiece of a Mark Williams trade.

Something is wrong with Mark's long-term health this trade made no basketball sense. If you ask me they didn't want to pay Mark long-term because they feared his long-term health. You can't make sense of this trade if we just looking at it from an basketball standpoint. We had a clear core 3 with Melo/Miller/Mark. They broke it up for a 23yr old rookie who is only known for scoring and a 1st round pick that probably want have any value with Luka now on the Lakers.

Sorry it just doesn't make sense.

The value of the unprotected 1st settled at (3) protected 1st round picks via Suns - Utah trade earlier in the deadline trade season.

Knecht is in year one of a rookie scale deal. Mark is due a raise 3 years earlier. Knecht has held first round value and proved he can perform in the rotation of a playoff team.

The swap is unprotected, and can be flipped well in advance of 2030 should Luka go out with an extended injury like he did this year.

So Mark returned an equivalent of up to (4-5) 1st round picks.

The Lakers needed Mark more than any team, which is why they coughed up the same level of longterm asset value as they did when they acquired Luka.

Then they sobered up. They took an inventory of outgoing assets and reclaimed them.

To call a LAL 2030 unprotected first and a pick swap the equivalent of 4-5 firsts is a big reach.

Maybe 3-4 EXTREMELY protected, guaranteed late firsts. That being said i think teams would rather the unprotected Suns first you reference over the Lakers unprotected first. The Suns are screwed in a few years. So i think it's not necessarily an apples to apples comparison.

[JustBuzzin]

They liked Knecth and thought the value for Mark was high enough to justify the risk that he stays healthy and performs at a high level. I get not agreeing, but it does not seem like rocket science to figure out why they might have thought it was a good idea.

Coming from a guy who was high on drafting Knecht no this didn't make sense. Mark is viewed as a better player with a much higher ceiling. Not to mention Knecht is the same age as Mark!

Also we have Miller/Mann who play the same positions. There was no need to make Knecht the centerpiece of a Mark Williams trade.

Something is wrong with Mark's long-term health this trade made no basketball sense. If you ask me they didn't want to pay Mark long-term because they feared his long-term health. You can't make sense of this trade if we just looking at it from an basketball standpoint. We had a clear core 3 with Melo/Miller/Mark. They broke it up for a 23yr old rookie who is only known for scoring and a 1st round pick that probably want have any value with Luka now on the Lakers.

Sorry it just doesn't make sense.

I get that maybe it's extremely difficult for you to believe, but it's possible that you and our FO value assets differently.

You might be right kind sir.

[MasterIchiro]

Coming from a guy who was high on drafting Knecht no this didn't make sense. Mark is viewed as a better player with a much higher ceiling. Not to mention Knecht is the same age as Mark!

Also we have Miller/Mann who play the same positions. There was no need to make Knecht the centerpiece of a Mark Williams trade.

Something is wrong with Mark's long-term health this trade made no basketball sense. If you ask me they didn't want to pay Mark long-term because they feared his long-term health. You can't make sense of this trade if we just looking at it from an basketball standpoint. We had a clear core 3 with Melo/Miller/Mark. They broke it up for a 23yr old rookie who is only known for scoring and a 1st round pick that probably want have any value with Luka now on the Lakers.

Sorry it just doesn't make sense.

The value of the unprotected 1st settled at (3) protected 1st round picks via Suns - Utah trade earlier in the deadline trade season.

Knecht is in year one of a rookie scale deal. Mark is due a raise 3 years earlier. Knecht has held first round value and proved he can perform in the rotation of a playoff team.

The swap is unprotected, and can be flipped well in advance of 2030 should Luka go out with an extended injury like he did this year.

So Mark returned an equivalent of up to (4-5) 1st round picks.

The Lakers needed Mark more than any team, which is why they coughed up the same level of longterm asset value as they did when they acquired Luka.

Then they sobered up. They took an inventory of outgoing assets and reclaimed them.

To call a LAL 2030 unprotected first and a pick swap the equivalent of 4-5 firsts is a big reach.

Maybe 3-4 EXTREMELY protected, guaranteed late firsts. That being said i think teams would rather the unprotected Suns first you reference over the Lakers unprotected first. The Suns are screwed in a few years. So i think it's not necessarily an apples to apples comparison.

Unprotected 1st = 3 protected 1sts
Knecht = 1st value

That's 4 right there.

The swap means Lakers are exposed at pick #1 overall in 2030.

That's 3-5 1st value for Mark, 1.5 years removed from restricted free agency.

[Chapelchilla]

1. Williams has a contract that he has barely lived up to so far.
2. He is neither a defensive menace or good shooter beyond 10 feet
3. He may not have the right temperament or skill set to commit too long term but is due an expensive extension in a couple years.
4. Hornets were offered a player who plays the 5 out style they want AND a mystery pick.

It was a good trade opportunity that was worth pursuing. If Mark does not like that he was almost traded but found lacking, he can prove everything and everyone wrong by balling out for a couple years and get a huge contract. From whomever wants to pay it.
He is not a toddler to be coddled. He can fulfill his own destiny by doing the work. Let's see how great he can be. Here or elsewhere.

[KembaWalker]

I think it would be fair of him to want a fresh start somewhere else when the scenario currently being offered him is being told he needs to play with a failed physical hanging over his head and stop missing games to "rebuild his value" (gee I wonder what the outcome of that would be, so hard to imagine). Meanwhile your team is rubbing their hands together over their potential upcoming value contract because of his unfortunate circumstances.

I'd also be like lol nah, I'm literally not healthy apparently (so good luck suspending me), please trade me to a team with an actual competent medical staff that views me as part of their future and I'll go rebuild my value and health there. Call me when its done! I'll be doing my PT out by the pool

[Chapelchilla]

He cannot be traded this year. Sitting out more games highlight's his bad health and perceived lack of toughness.
It doesn't matter how much he likes that, he has a contract with rules and obligations for at least 2 more years minimum unless he is so unhealthy that he does not get any RFA offers.

[wilson115]

Read on Twitter

[Bassman]

Photo posted by Hornets of Mark getting on the Hornets plane with the rest of the team! That’s our man in the middle…go get em big guy!

[yosemiteben]

I think it would be fair of him to want a fresh start somewhere else when the scenario currently being offered him is being told he needs to play with a failed physical hanging over his head and stop missing games to "rebuild his value" (gee I wonder what the outcome of that would be, so hard to imagine). Meanwhile your team is rubbing their hands together over their potential upcoming value contract because of his unfortunate circumstances.

I'd also be like lol nah, I'm literally not healthy apparently (so good luck suspending me), please trade me to a team with an actual competent medical staff that views me as part of their future and I'll go rebuild my value and health there. Call me when its done! I'll be doing my PT out by the pool

There's no fresh start here. You'd be seen to have quit on one team just because they tried to trade you, and you'd have medicals that scared another team away from you that desperately needed a player like you.

It would just reflect negatively on you.

[HornetJail]

that's the face of someone ready to drop 40/20 on Jaxson Hayes

[SWedd523]

I think it would be fair of him to want a fresh start somewhere else when the scenario currently being offered him is being told he needs to play with a failed physical hanging over his head and stop missing games to "rebuild his value" (gee I wonder what the outcome of that would be, so hard to imagine). Meanwhile your team is rubbing their hands together over their potential upcoming value contract because of his unfortunate circumstances.

I'd also be like lol nah, I'm literally not healthy apparently (so good luck suspending me), please trade me to a team with an actual competent medical staff that views me as part of their future and I'll go rebuild my value and health there. Call me when its done! I'll be doing my PT out by the pool

I don't follow this at all

[fatlever]

great to see he's on the plane
i love to be wrong sometimes
path to redemption