Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread

[fatlever]

Cherrypicking Frank stats at the 5 game mark to get best results. We all do it. Just figured I'd provide more context. That 5 game sample really helped by his monster game vs Memphis. Cut that game out, or extend one more game and you're back to shooting %s that aren't nearly as impressive. I do like the assists though as well as his willingness to take shots.

Last 3 games

13.3/7.3/4.0, 33.3%FG, 28.6%3pt

Last 6 games

13.7/5.5/3.2, 41.1%Fg, 33.3%3pt

[LamarMatic7]

Also we need a new thread title since he rarely pump fakes anymore.

you think so? still seems to me that he pump fakes all the time.

[fatlever]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/scott-fowler/article117984293.html

“I said before the season I wanted to become a more consistent player,” Kaminsky said Tuesday night. “And to do that, I can’t have things happen like they did tonight. I mean tonight is the perfect example of how I don’t want things to go.”

“I got down on myself pretty early in the game,” Kaminsky said. “You miss a couple of early shots, mess up a couple of times, and things just kind of snowball from there.”

“The way I finished that Minnesota game, that’s the way I want to be able to play every night,” Kaminsky said. “I want to go out there, not make any mistakes on defense, and help our team win on offense.”

“He’s been playing better,” Clifford said of Kaminsky. “And I think he’ll continue to play better. He works at it. He’s very talented. The defensive part is still obviously a challenge, and now he’s playing against starters so it’s a little bit different too.”

[BigSlam]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/scott-fowler/article117984293.html

“I said before the season I wanted to become a more consistent player,” Kaminsky said Tuesday night. “And to do that, I can’t have things happen like they did tonight. I mean tonight is the perfect example of how I don’t want things to go.”

“I got down on myself pretty early in the game,” Kaminsky said. “You miss a couple of early shots, mess up a couple of times, and things just kind of snowball from there.”

“The way I finished that Minnesota game, that’s the way I want to be able to play every night,” Kaminsky said. “I want to go out there, not make any mistakes on defense, and help our team win on offense.”

“He’s been playing better,” Clifford said of Kaminsky. “And I think he’ll continue to play better. He works at it. He’s very talented. The defensive part is still obviously a challenge, and now he’s playing against starters so it’s a little bit different too.”

Got to give it to Frank - he doesn't run away from his suckage. He owns it.


"BBMF'ers"

[StitchJones]

I think Frank could be a really good player coming off the bench. I don't think his future is as a starter on a really good to great team.

[yosemiteben]

Frank off the bench this season: 25.5 MPG, 12.0 pts, 44.2% FG, 31.1% 3PT (53% TS), 4.5 boards, 2.8 ast, 22.9% USG

Frank as a starter: 29.2 MPG, 10.0 pts, 33.9% FG, 23.8% 3PT (41% TS, yuk), 5.2 boards, 2.8 ast, 19.6% USG

Pretty disappointed that Frank hasn't taken advantage of his opportunity to play with the starters. The starters as a whole have played well with him in the lineup though, posting a net rating of +16.

[HornetJail]

Frank off the bench this season: 25.5 MPG, 12.0 pts, 44.2% FG, 31.1% 3PT (53% TS), 4.5 boards, 2.8 ast, 22.9% USG

Frank as a starter: 29.2 MPG, 10.0 pts, 33.9% FG, 23.8% 3PT (41% TS, yuk), 5.2 boards, 2.8 ast, 19.6% USG

Pretty disappointed that Frank hasn't taken advantage of his opportunity to play with the starters. The starters as a whole have played well with him in the lineup though, posting a net rating of +16.

Honestly not all that surprising. He's struggled with his shot but a lot of it has to do with starting bigs guarding him instead of backups.

[LamarMatic7]

Frank off the bench this season: 25.5 MPG, 12.0 pts, 44.2% FG, 31.1% 3PT (53% TS), 4.5 boards, 2.8 ast, 22.9% USG

Frank as a starter: 29.2 MPG, 10.0 pts, 33.9% FG, 23.8% 3PT (41% TS, yuk), 5.2 boards, 2.8 ast, 19.6% USG

Pretty disappointed that Frank hasn't taken advantage of his opportunity to play with the starters. The starters as a whole have played well with him in the lineup though, posting a net rating of +16.

The lineup of N.Batum, F.Kaminsky, M.Kidd-Gilchrist, K.Walker, C.Zeller is actually at -2.2 per 100 poss. in the 92 minutes they have played together.

[Mystical Apples]

Fun with selective stats. 6 games since starting:

Team On/Off
Overall: +21.8 leads team (Cody 2nd @ +14.4)
OffRtg: +14.2 (1st)
DefRtg: +7.6 (4th)
Q1: +18.7 (mostly starters v starters)
Q4: +24.9 (coaching matchups)
Minutes: 4th

*Assist to TOV: +1.33 (1st by a mile)

* Far more relevant to total NBA Net Rating than the attention it receives . Offensive efficiency at the most basic level = shooting usage + passing usage - mistakes. Kaminsky needs to make shots but his passing creation efficiency is Jokic-Gasol-Griffin-Draymond level which translates into overall team efficiency.

As an aside and not specific to RGM, it's weird how important stuff gets overlooked at the cost of endlessly dicking around the fringes of individual scoring. Same goes for Batum and MKG's defense.

[BigSlam]

G'day Stephanie.

Private message me......


"BBMF'ers"

[yosemiteben]

Frank is a nice fit with our starters in terms of his ability to move the ball and being a relatively low usage spacer without turning the ball over, though I wonder if his drop in shooting %'s is related to his reduced role and usage. With that said, his on/off IMO is similar to Lamb in that if he isn't clicking Cliff doesn't have a problem with pulling him.

For example, that 4th quarter on/off stat is a little misleading in that he has sat out the entire 4th quarter for two of the last six games (both against DAL). One game where he did play was against MIN, where we fell apart down the stretch. Another was against DET during garbage time. Another was against MEM which again was mostly garbage time. So that NYK game was the only one in the last 6 where Frank played meaningful minutes in the 4th Q and where we did not lose a significant lead while he was on the floor (though to be fair we also built the lead in the MIN game while he was on the floor). He hit a bunch of clutch shots in that NYK game and kept us in it.

Tied to that is the usual noise associated with on/off stats. We all recognize that the second unit has struggled with Hawes and Hibbert both plugged in to the rotation, and my guess based on what I remember is that during the last six games Frank has barely shared the court at all with either Hawes or Hibbert.

[Mystical Apples]

Stephanie gets it.

[yosemiteben]

I do think Frank's ability to keep from turning the ball over is underappreciated. In the 6 games he's started, he's played a total of 169 minutes and only had 3 total TOs, and based on the vid of those TOs one was in garbage time against DET when he got a low post feed from Harrison that had him triple teamed under the basket and he couldn't get the ball out.

[Mystical Apples]

For example, that 4th quarter on/off stat is a little misleading in that he has sat out the entire 4th quarter for two of the last six games (both against DAL). Another was against MEM which again was mostly garbage time. So that NYK game was the only one in the last 6 where Frank played meaningful minutes in the 4th Q and where we did not lose a significant lead while he was on the floor (though to be fair we also built the lead in the MIN game while he was on the floor). He hit a bunch of clutch shots in that NYK game and kept us in it. Tied to that is the usual noise associated with on/off stats

Besides the Assist:TOV comment I was kinda kidding with the On/Off numbers. In all seriousness, Q4 ratings are the least reliable unless garbage time is controlled. But not sure I follow your logic regarding Dallas.....the Mavs are the 3rd worst team and missing Barea, Dirk, mostly Bogut, and Williams 1 game. Surely ideal conditions if a shiny on/off is the goal.

One extreme is Lamb's 8 games including: Dallas twice (once on a B2B), NYK on a BTB, Miami, Minnesota, and Memphis without Conley

The other extreme is Marvin *missing* low-hanging fruit: Dallas twice, NYK home, Memphis w/o Conley, Minnesota, and Detroit home.

[Mystical Apples]

For what it's worth Kaminsky is 3rd in non-garbage Q4/OT minutes since October 28 (his 1st game). Feel free to draw your own conclusions about chart.

Another aside - people generally grasp shooting efficiency stats (2PA v 3PA / FG% v eFG% / scoring USG%) yet for whatever reason raw assists totals are the standard for playmaking and I find this odd. It's as if denominators cease to exist with passing, or for that matter, TOV's on passes leading to stellar teammate efficiency are somehow the same as 3 second violations.

Assist Points Created (APC) : TOV in the chart is around .46 r-squared with *total* team net rating and along with passing TS% is what separates players like Frank and Nic from 90% of functional ball movers. Note the APC:TOV is a little weird from sample size, IE Cody's lighter handling responsibilities and passing usage.

[yosemiteben]

I don't see what's so confusing about people using more accessible data. I think it's reasonable to assume that the average basketball fan doesn't know where to go to look up APC. Not disputing that that is valuable data and important analysis.

[Snidely FC]

The difference between the best athletes in the world and lesser ones is the speed at which they operate. There is a reason why guys who routinely score 20 ppg in college or 30 ppg in the D League shoot 15% when they get to the NBA. It's speed of play. And its why, when young players start to mature, you hear the cliche, "the game has slowed down for him." I feel like too many people are focused on whether Frank's shot is falling at the expense of overlooking his bbiq and fit on the team. I also feel like the game was just starting to slow down for him at the second team level when he got pulled up to first. Yes, starters are faster, stronger, better. He's a second year pro. Anybody remember Cody's shooting as a second year? Kemba's? Lamb's? I know everyone thinks because Frank was "old" when drafted he should come to the league fully formed, but there's learning his role on the team as well as that tricky speed of play issue. People are too impatient with young players imo. How many seven footers have the agility, creativity and range Frank brings? I disagree that we've seen the mature version of Frank. Bigs in this league peak around age 29. I'm happy with where Frank is in his young career. When playing on the first team slows down for him and his shots start falling, I think patient CHA fans are going to enjoy having him around.

[GoBobs]

I think he is a center playing out of position at the 4. When he gets a little more size I see Frank and Cody as both Centers.

[GlenRiceARoni]

Frank is a good passer and it seems like his shooting will eventually be at least adequate if not good but you have to admit it's downright alarming how poorly he's playing as an old prospect.

The average NBA player peaks at Age 25. (Much younger than most people tend to believe). Though their 3pt shooting tends to be the last thing to mature and the last thing to go (i.e. players hold onto it even after their athleticism begins to wane)

I haven't given up on frank yet but to overcome his defensive and rebounding issues he has to be making shots at some point. Otherwise he's a big fat net negative on the court, period.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

[yosemiteben]

Otherwise he's a big fat net negative on the court, period.

Only if you are ignoring his actual +/-, which tend to show that he's not really close to a negative.