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Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread

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Re: RE: Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1561 » by yosemiteben » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:38 pm

GlenRiceARoni wrote:The average NBA player peaks at Age 25. (Much younger than most people tend to believe).

Just out of curiosity, do you mean that most NBA players have their best statistical performances at age 25 or otherwise are most effective by that age and only lose their effectiveness or begin to decrease their overall statistical performance after that age? Because I think that's pretty obviously and demonstrably false.

I also wonder how long you would say one's "peak" lasts. I would not agree that there is a singular point in time where a player is at their peak, but at least a few years where they are in their athletic primes.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1562 » by GlenRiceARoni » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:40 pm

The peak statistical output for the average player is reached at 25. That's based on research. Typically they maintain it until ~27-28 with an unbelievably dramatic falloff after that.

Fans get their perceptions thrown off by stars and outliers like LeBron, Kobe, garnett who have significantly higher ceilings and tend to peak later in the 28 thru 30 range.

Players who tend to resist dropoffs the longest are tall PG (think Nash, Kidd, etc) and 7 footers (think Duncan, Shaq, kareem).

The ones who age the poorest are wing players who rely heavily on athleticism and driving ability. When they lose it, it's gone. These guys age like milk. Think Gerald Wallace.

Shooting can keep a guy in the league a LONG time as there's always a spot for a guy who can really shoot the basketball and that skill doesn't diminish quickly. Think Ray Allen as a player and guys like James Jones or Mike Miller who hang on rosters seemingly forever despite being a shell of his former self. These guys lose the ability to create their own shot but can still space the floor.

There are always exceptions. But this is based on the AVERAGE. That's why NBA scouts place such an emphasis on age as the most development and improvement comes between 20-23. After that it's pretty minute because declining athleticism will offset improving knack for the game.

I will say stars also experience less drop-off in their early 30s because of the reputation calls and subtle art to their game to draw contact. think Jordan, Pierce, wade etc


Frank is not one of these players. He will hang around the league a long time if he learns to shoot because he's a willing and able passer. But as his athleticism declines he will need to be more like Channing Frye to offset his rebounding/ defensive deficiencies.

Remember the average player is roughly the 225th best player in the league and can barely get on the court for the Milwaukee Bucks or new York Knicks. The average player isn't nic batum or even Courtney lee

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Re: RE: Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1563 » by yosemiteben » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:44 am

GlenRiceARoni wrote:The peak statistical output for the average player is reached at 25. That's based on research.

Were you ever able to track down a cite for that?

Doesn't seem like it would take much research, pretty easy to look up stats by age.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1564 » by Mystical Apples » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:41 am

For all the hand-wringing about Kaminsky's shooting (and tbh awful of late) his VORP is still better than 5 draftees taken ahead of him + Winslow and Booker, including several sub-replacement level stinkers (Mudiay, Booker, Hezonja, WCS, Okafor, or SJ sent down to the D).

Based on RPM Wins only KAT and Porzingas are currently ahead of FK.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1565 » by fatlever » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:04 am

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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1566 » by JDR720 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:53 am

so we drafted him as a shooting big and he cant shoot. great
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1567 » by Chuck Everett » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:59 am

He's just got to become more consistent. Kemba and Batum get him the looks. He can make them, he needs to put a little more arc on his shot. So many of his shots hit the front of the rim.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1568 » by Zombiesonics » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:09 pm

Chuck Everett wrote:He's just got to become more consistent. Kemba and Batum get him the looks. He can make them, he needs to put a little more arc on his shot. So many of his shots hit the front of the rim.

he shoots with two hands, i think he needs to refine his release with a shooting coach. watching love and him shoot threes, you would think one was a real shooter and the other was not. he reminds me kelly olynyk, just the lack of trust in my head when he gets the shots up.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1569 » by yosemiteben » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:32 pm

Zombiesonics wrote:he shoots with two hands...

I took a look at the tape after seeing you say this a few times and I just completely disagree. Here is a link to clips of every 3PTA he's taken this year: link. In every clip I watched his guide hand is always open and facing the ball and his release is only with his shooting hand, looks like text book shooting mechanics to me. He does not follow through with two hands. Maybe he starts his motion lower, but he's not releasing with two hands.

A few specific examples where you can pretty clearly see his mechanics and hand locations:

http://www.nba.com/video/wsc/league/b2742d23-3878-274a-10cc-7efd9a51dd66
http://www.nba.com/video/wsc/league/6c41c8af-dbe8-9f9d-24c7-91d280e0b270
http://www.nba.com/video/wsc/league/1d1ab353-4e0f-dc31-8f82-68ba63e68314
http://www.nba.com/video/wsc/league/77c35bd5-4156-aa84-f6d2-76ad9064dfc6
http://www.nba.com/video/wsc/league/b07d436d-56d8-2fff-fa3c-f08c05b82336
http://www.nba.com/video/wsc/league/e2bc349e-9be4-329c-8dfb-4eb91649023b
http://www.nba.com/video/wsc/league/5e3cf218-a3a4-c0d4-988e-6263e5d9aff6

ETA: apparently none of the links to the specific videos work, even though each video has an icon that allows you to share a link to the vid. Not sure what the deal is there.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1570 » by Zombiesonics » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:42 pm

His guide hand stays a little too long on the ball, he has a slow release. Something is up, the guy is open most of the time and often comes up with bad bricks. And man, I swear mods on this forum are always out to prove visitors wrong on pretty much every point. So frank has a textbook release and shoots 29% on open threes? ok then.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1571 » by amcoolio » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:47 pm

You guys are way down on Frank, but I'm still not worried. He'll figure it out and hit those shots. Still like the rest of his game, aside from his post work, which needs a lot of improvement. But he's a 2nd year player playing 30 mpg on a playoff team, he'll get it fixed
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1572 » by yosemiteben » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:55 pm

Zombiesonics wrote:His guide hand stays a little too long on the ball, he has a slow release.

Ok, that's different than saying he shoots with two hands. I agree that he has a slower release, but if he's consistently getting uncontested 3's then that doesn't seem to be like much of a problem.

Zombiesonics wrote:And man, I swear mods on this forum are always out to prove visitors wrong on pretty much every point.

Sorry if it came across that way dude, you said he shoots with two hands so I just looked up a bunch of videos and that wasn't correct.

Zombiesonics wrote:So frank has a textbook release and shoots 29% on open threes? ok then.

Yeah, I have an extremely fundamentally sound release myself and I am an extremely unreliable shooter at the Y. Even if his mechanics were 100% perfect, it's not all about shooting mechanics.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1573 » by Mystical Apples » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:53 pm

Zombiesonics wrote:
Chuck Everett wrote:He's just got to become more consistent. Kemba and Batum get him the looks. He can make them, he needs to put a little more arc on his shot. So many of his shots hit the front of the rim.

he shoots with two hands, i think he needs to refine his release with a shooting coach. watching love and him shoot threes, you would think one was a real shooter and the other was not. he reminds me kelly olynyk, just the lack of trust in my head when he gets the shots up.


He's a 2 motion shooter with a lowish dip so I can understand the both hand appearance. He actually added a couple minor variations in the offseason that aren't evident on every shot....a slightly higher pocket, shallower dip, and marginally closer to 1-piece through his legs if needed. The difference is a little more apparent in the corners and the inbounds play coming off a screen. And all kidding aside, the pump fake cadence is slightly different too.

That said, this isn't new and I'm sure it's 100% mental. He's uber confident but goes through periods where he kinda crucifies himself for mistakes and starts over-thinking.....not a bad thing for fouls and turnovers, not so good for shooting.
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Re: RE: Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1574 » by GlenRiceARoni » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:30 pm

Chuck Everett wrote:He's just got to become more consistent. Kemba and Batum get him the looks. He can make them, he needs to put a little more arc on his shot. So many of his shots hit the front of the rim.

Lack of consistency would indicate he fluctuates from game to game.

Right now he's extremely consistent. He misses on a consistent basis

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Re: RE: Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1575 » by Chuck Everett » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:54 pm

GlenRiceARoni wrote:
Chuck Everett wrote:He's just got to become more consistent. Kemba and Batum get him the looks. He can make them, he needs to put a little more arc on his shot. So many of his shots hit the front of the rim.

Lack of consistency would indicate he fluctuates from game to game.

Right now he's extremely consistent. He misses on a consistent basis

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That's a glass half-empty way to look at it. Then again, I couldn't actually say you're wrong.

The thing is, I've seen Kaminsky have games where he hit three or four of the same shots. I still feel the lack of arc (is what's hurting him). It's the same thing that hurts Derrick Rose as well (when shooting from deep).
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1576 » by Snidely FC » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:47 am

I take back every nice thing I've ever said in defense of Frank. He's terrible, indefensible, and so funny looking we should call him Nephew McPhee.
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1577 » by JDR720 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:48 am

shooting 28% last 10 games
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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1578 » by GlenRiceARoni » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:58 pm

Yeah his season is on life support at the moment. Unfortunately given Marvin struggles we really have no other course of action. Very disappointing.

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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1579 » by BigSlam » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:33 pm

GlenRiceARoni wrote:Yeah his season is on life support at the moment. Unfortunately given Marvin struggles we really have no other course of action. Very disappointing.

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I'd rather see Woods get that PT at the moment.
Why not? Couldn't be much worse.


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Re: Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread 

Post#1580 » by EwingSweatsALot » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:27 pm

Snidely FC wrote:I take back every nice thing I've ever said in defense of Frank. He's terrible, indefensible, and so funny looking we should call him Nephew McPhee.
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Thanks for coming through in the clutch. Really needed to get rid of this boner i got at my desk at work.

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