Retro Draft: Winner is Stun704

[SWedd523]

^it all depends on the type of team you're building. If you want to go with a half court, pick and roll offensive attack then taking Stockton makes sense because that's his bread and butter. You just have to pair him with a nice roll man and I honestly don't know if that's Hakeem or not (isn't he a dump it down low and let him dream shake his way to a bucket?).

Also keep in mind that Isiah was one hell of a distributor himself. He would spend the first three quarters setting his teammates up and then take over in the 4th when necessary. What happens when the P&R isn't working? You want your PG to beat his man off the bounce and get some buckets. Isiah (or should I say CP3 v1) can do that.

[captaincrunk]

yeah, i'm not saying i would pair isiah with mj, just saying if i was building a franchise from scratch i would pick isiah over stockton. when you have mj, i'd prefer to pair him with a pg who can play well off the ball, play defense and knock down lots of open shots.

Depends on if you get that point forward or not I think. But yeah I agree.

[SWedd523]

yeah, i'm not saying i would pair isiah with mj, just saying if i was building a franchise from scratch i would pick isiah over stockton. when you have mj, i'd prefer to pair him with a pg who can play well off the ball, play defense and knock down lots of open shots.

Keeping in that frame of thought. I think MJ is easy AND hard to build around, if that makes sense. You want to pair him with a bunch of shooters and defenders, and that's easy enough. But sometimes you sacrifice some talent in order to do so--and that may hurt you in the eyes of voters.

There's a reason why average players like Paxson, Kerr, and Armstrong were able to succeed next to MJ. They were able to play off the ball and drain shots when it came their way. Can Isiah coexist? They have a lot of clashing qualities, but both are willing to do whatever it takes to win, so it's an interesting dynamic.

[-Ian-]

For the 1st teamer category, I select...



Elgin Baylor

• 11-time All-Star
• 10-time All-NBA team selection
• Rookie of the Year (1959)
• All-Star game MVP (1959)
• one of the players who revolutionized the game and the one who set the stage for the high flying style of today's NBA
• could create shots for his teammates like a point guard, crash the boards like a center and overwhelm his opponents with his prolific scoring ability
• averaged 38.3 points, 18.6 rebounds and 4.6 assists during the 1961-62 season
• holds NBA Finals single-game record for most points (61 coupled with 22 rebounds) on April 14, 1962 against the Boston Celtics

[Paydro70]

Paydro I think you only get one pick.

Fixed.

Blah, really not sure the third round swing is necessary in this draft...

LOL - says the guy picking #1 in this draft but who wasn't saying the same thing when he picking at the bottom end of the last one!

Two different pools of players. With current guys, the superstars are perceived to be absolutely necessary to succeed... hence quotes like "LBJ and Kobe trump all." There are only 5 or so of those players available, and the results of the poll bore that out when the top four teams were the only ones to get votes.

In an all-time context, the arguments are much more fierce, and in the first two rounds everybody taken is a legend. In other words, MJ is NOT the kind of trump card amongst legends that Kobe is among modern players.

I don't think I'm being screwed, or that I don't have a chance to win, I just don't think the correction of the third round swap is necessary.

[LamarMatic7]

regarding stockton vs isiah, if i was a gm and i could pick one or the other to build my franchise around for the next 10 years i would select isiah, just because when he was at his best, his best was better than stockton's best, imo. and he had more of an ability to put a team on his back and win games on his own. isiah could be an alpha scorer when his team needed it.

...and when those 10 years went past Isiah would retire after a couple of unsuccessful last seasons and you could watch Stock still putting in work for some other team. What I'm trying to say - Stock missed 22 games over his 19 seasons, Isiah missed about 80 during his 13 years. John's prime went on for about seven, eight seasons and he still was a quality player during his last seasons, while Isiah got washed up pretty fast after the championship runs. I might consider taking Zeke only for the fact that he was the perfect ****, you would just know that he'd do everything to win, while John (of course he was one of the dirtiest players as well) may have been too humble.

Stockton's Playoffs WL? 89-93.
Isiah's Playoffs WL? 69-42.

Stockton's Playoffs Series WL? 17-17
Isiah's Playoffs Series WL? 16-7

Stockton's Finals WL? 0-2
Isiah's Finals WL? 2-1


I like Isiah. If the PG market wasn't so deep, I'd have gone with Isiah over Scottie. And I'd definitely take him over John.

How about these stats? Isiah's field goal % - 45%, John's - 51,5%. From downtown - Isiah with 29%, John with 38%. Stockton has an advantage from the charity line as well, plus Thomas turned the ball over one more time per game than John. He has a huge advantage in playoffs win shares (I don't even know what it means, but it just sounds **** awesome. You know that it's some basketball-reference stat that sums everything up and makes sense. It works - Jordan is the leader for career win shares per 48 mins) as he stepped up during those important games.

Stockton has the most steals ever by a very wide margin.

I know that of course, but Pippen could be the greatest defensive player of all-time (since I'm a biased Rodman fan, I'd say he's number one, but that's another story). He's way overrated in that area though.

[Stun704]

Goin with Clyde the Glide Drexler - Champion

[fatlever]

i am going to stick with my "bull in the china shop" team and select Dave Cowens - Front Office, another ferocious player who had a never-ending motor, a nose for rebounds. he was a guy who gave every ounce of energy every night for 48 minutes, despite being a tad undersized as a center at a time when big men ruled the league. the man was relentless. cowens is also one of the best passing centers the league has seen. he is one of only 4 players to lead his team is points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in the same season.

cowens, barkley and oscar you can see a clear pattern emerging, 3 guys who bullied and pushed and out muscled their way all over the court. these 3 never backed down from anyone, ever and left most opponents and lesser teammates in fear.

72-73: 20.5ppg, 16.2rpg, 4.1apg - best year, led celtics to 68 wins, league MVP
73-74: 19.0ppg, 15.7rpg, 4.4apg
74-75: 20.4ppg, 14.7rpg, 4.6apg
75-76: 19.0ppg, 16.0rpg, 4.2apg

- 1973 MVP
- 7 time NBA all-star
- 3 time all-defense
- 3 time 2nd team all-nba
- 2 time NBA champion

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAXc6u_jGVM[/youtube]

[captaincrunk]

Bob Cousy B-Ball Mecca.

[captaincrunk]

I know that of course, but Pippen could be the greatest defensive player of all-time (since I'm a biased Rodman fan, I'd say he's number one, but that's another story). He's way overrated in that area though.

I was just saying that he was by no means a scrub.

[LamarMatic7]

Kevin McHale for the Front Office category. A great guy to add to my tough team. Although Bird believed that Kevin could be the greatest player in the league, he never wanted the spotlight and was a team player. A great defender (made the All-Defensive team 6 times), who could block shots with his very long arms, high percentage shooter (first one to shoot from the field with at least 60% and with 80% from the charity line). With Kevin and Hakeem now I have two of the best post players off all-time for their respective positions.

[LamarMatic7]

Just realized that I have the whitest team so far. ****.

[Diop]

With Hakeem???

I was contemplating having an all white team, just for the lulz.

[captaincrunk]

With Hakeem???

I was contemplating having an all white team, just for the lulz.

I am going for flashy players. Like Bob Cousy.

[BigSlam]

HANG ON A MINUTE!!!

Cousy? McHale? WTF are people doing taking my Celtics??? I was trying to collect the set!

Oh well, looks like I might have to go in a slightly different direction and pick outside my Celtic inner circle.

For my 3rd round pick I am going with THE best defensive point guard in the history of the NBA. Not "one" of the best, "THE" best. Not only was he the best defensive point ever to play the game, but he was super clutch - especially in big games. For my man from the mecca, I'm going with:

Walt "Clyde" Frazier.


2× NBA Champion (1970, 1973)
7× NBA All-Star (1970–1976)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)
4 ×All-NBA First Team (1970, 1972, 1974–1975)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1971, 1973)
7× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969–1975)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1968)
#10 Retired by the New York Knicks
NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Best season - 1973-1974:
20.5 points per game
6.7 rebounds per game
6.9 assists per game
2 steals per game

[Diop]

Bastard!! If this wasn't a reversed round, I was sure I would grab him.

Also:
8. Bball Mecca – was born, attended high school or college in New York state. (doesn't mention pros)

He was born in Atlanta, went to High School in Atlanta, went to College in Illinois.

Might want to change your category.

[BigSlam]

Bastard!! If this wasn't a reversed round, I was hopeful I would grab him.

Also:
8. Bball Mecca – was born, attended high school or college in New York state. (doesn't mention pros)

He was born in Atlanta, went to High School in Atlanta, went to College in Illinois.

Might want to change your category.

Oops! Thanks Sachmo. I guess I didn't look at the fine print close enough and thought it was based on born there and playing career (including high school, college and pro).

I'll change it to 1st teamer (did it 4 times)

[-Ian-]

ARGH! Frazier's my dream point guard and I was contemplating whether I should pick Baylor or McHale. I guess I should've went with McHale or Frazier.

[captaincrunk]

Frazier's alright. He's no Bob Cousy or Stockton, but probably the better of who was left. McHale was probably the right choice. I just now realized I should have picked him.

EDIT I havne't been including stats and stuff with my players. I figured we would at the end. Am I wrong?

[SWedd523]

I was really hoping McHale would make it back to me. Love his ability to score in the post and play good D at the same time.

Bob "Steve Nash before Steve Nash" Cousy is one of those badly underrated players. He made basketball look good back in the day.