The Steve Clifford Thread 2.0 - Off the Cliff we go

[Braggins]

Ive been gradually warming up to Clifford slightly.

Until we lose a few games and suffer a blow out or two.

Then you'll go back to bashing him again.


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It would depend on the circumstances. My biggest issues are Hawes being in the rotation and Al starting. If said losses are influenced by those two things then i probably will flip out. Being forced to watch those guys play defense can drive me to insanity very quickly. I can mostly forgive the Al situation because i realize how big of a distraction benching Al could be, but Hawes is pretty much just the bane of my existence. Im also not the only one who bashes certain people everytime they have a bad showing. Like half the board has their pet guys to hate on.

[MasterIchiro]

Ive been gradually warming up to Clifford slightly.

Until we lose a few games and suffer a blow out or two.

Then you'll go back to bashing him again.


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It would depend on the circumstances. My biggest issues are Hawes being in the rotation and Al starting. If said losses are influenced by those two things then i probably will flip out. Being forced to watch those guys play defense can drive me to insanity very quickly. I can mostly forgive the Al situation because i realize how big of a distraction benching Al could be, but Hawes is pretty much just the bane of my existence. Im also not the only one who bashes certain people everytime they have a bad showing. Like half the board has their pet guys to hate on.

Hendo was mine so I'm a pretty good boy this year, and MKG but he's not around either.

Al gives us points and commands attention in the paint. I do think it opens up the perimeter if Al is used correctly and by that I mean the team does not set up plays for him but instead catches the defense off guard and finds him open within the flow of the offense. Clifford has been putting an emphasis on this new style. He's aware that we became too predictable last year and that going to Al most frequently disengaged the perimeter players. That was tough because those perimeter players were afraid to shoot or unable to shoot from range to begin with. Except Hendo; he was not bashful at all. It was just a clusterphuck with him.

In the trade thread I sent out Hawes' sorry ass and terrible contract for Taj Gibson. I'm willing to give up a lotto-protected first to make it happen. That would open up more time for Noah in Chicago and give them an asset.

[Braggins]

Until we lose a few games and suffer a blow out or two.

Then you'll go back to bashing him again.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It would depend on the circumstances. My biggest issues are Hawes being in the rotation and Al starting. If said losses are influenced by those two things then i probably will flip out. Being forced to watch those guys play defense can drive me to insanity very quickly. I can mostly forgive the Al situation because i realize how big of a distraction benching Al could be, but Hawes is pretty much just the bane of my existence. Im also not the only one who bashes certain people everytime they have a bad showing. Like half the board has their pet guys to hate on.

Hendo was mine so I'm a pretty good boy this year, and MKG but he's not around either.

Al gives us points and commands attention in the paint. I do think it opens up the perimeter if Al is used correctly and by that I mean the team does not set up plays for him but instead catches the defense off guard and finds him open within the flow of the offense. Clifford has been putting an emphasis on this new style. He's aware that we became too predictable last year and that going to Al most frequently disengaged the perimeter players. That was tough because those perimeter players were afraid to shoot or unable to shoot from range to begin with. Except Hendo; he was not bashful at all. It was just a clusterphuck with him.

In the trade thread I sent out Hawes' sorry ass and terrible contract for Taj Gibson. I'm willing to give up a lotto-protected first to make it happen. That would open up more time for Noah in Chicago and give them an asset.

Last years roster was just a nightmare lol.

I love the idea of trading Hawes and a pick for a big that doesnt suck.

If i keep warming up to Cliff you, BD, and Ben can rub in my face as much as you want if i end up legit liking him .

[Eoghan]

Seems like he's coaching for his job to me. It's the only explanation for suddenly holding Al accountable. He finally got a roster of shooters but the trade off is he knows there's no margin of error on defensive lapses with Alberto Grande and El Guapo Hawes as the last line of rim protection, two of the NBA's greatest matadors.

So this year he actually looks like a coach instead of a robot with preset sub patterns.

[yosemiteben]

Well his bench last year is generally either out of the league or not getting meaningful minutes where they are now (like Biz's 6 minutes tonight or Lance's 1 minute on Saturday) so it's not like Cliff ever had a real alternative to relying on Al.

I think Cliff's newfound flexibility has a whole lot more to do with our improved depth than a rotation philosophy change.

[Braggins]

Well his bench last year is generally either out of the league or not getting meaningful minutes where they are now (like Biz's 6 minutes tonight or Lance's 1 minute on Saturday) so it's not like Cliff ever had a real alternative to relying on Al.

I think Cliff's newfound flexibility has a whole lot more to do with our improved depth than a rotation philosophy change.

I agree with your overall assessment of our bench, but Biz really did play well for us last year before his injury.

[Braggins]

Clifford used a lineup of Kemba, Lin, Lamb, Batum, and Cody, for a long stretch in the 4th against NY. Its really encouraging to see him being willing to experiment with a lot of different lineups and everyone seems willing to buy into their roles. I actually feel good about our teams potential to make progress with our play throughout the season.

We desperately need to capitalize on these next three games against struggling teams. Our offense has looked spectacular this season against weak defensive teams so I'm expecting us to play well.

[TinmanZBoy]

all i want to say is Coach Clifford is a really good coach... you long time Hornets fans are lucky to have him

[Al Kidd-Walker]

Well his bench last year is generally either out of the league or not getting meaningful minutes where they are now (like Biz's 6 minutes tonight or Lance's 1 minute on Saturday) so it's not like Cliff ever had a real alternative to relying on Al.

Yea because its not like the team played better when Al wasnt playing or anything like that

[yosemiteben]

Well his bench last year is generally either out of the league or not getting meaningful minutes where they are now (like Biz's 6 minutes tonight or Lance's 1 minute on Saturday) so it's not like Cliff ever had a real alternative to relying on Al.

Yea because its not like the team played better when Al wasnt playing or anything like that

When discussing Cliff, let's reference the current season and our top 5 offensive efficiency. I don't think he needs to do a lot more to prove that the personnel, more than the coach, was the problem last season.

[tonman]

Well his bench last year is generally either out of the league or not getting meaningful minutes where they are now (like Biz's 6 minutes tonight or Lance's 1 minute on Saturday) so it's not like Cliff ever had a real alternative to relying on Al.

Yea because its not like the team played better when Al wasnt playing or anything like that

When discussing Cliff, let's reference the current season and our top 5 offensive efficiency. I don't think he needs to do a lot more to prove that the personnel, more than the coach, was the problem last season.

It's a combination. The same players from last season are still on the team. They have taken less shots but on occasion you see the old system still at work. For example, I liked that members put up 31 against New York. I don't like how it was done. Ask yourself what happens to the efficiency when MKG comes back? The changes will not happen overnight. Been pleasantly surprised but neither batum nor Lin are on long term contracts and adding hawes and lamb and Frank does really change the style of the original.core group of.players.

[Hornet Mania]

I haven't seen anything masterful from Cliff this year. Seems like he has better offensive players on the roster so we have better offensive results, worse defensive players and thus worse defensive results. For all that talk about pace back in September we're currently 22/30 in pace league wide. The exact same spot we held last season.

Our new players, for the most part, are better passers and shooters than the guys they replaced. They're also, for the most part, worse defenders. The results on the court reflect that. I don't think Cliff is a massive negative, but I also see no evidence to suggest he's really doing anything significant to improve our results. Seems like the sort of coach who gets what his roster would naturally give him, no more and no less. From what I've seen this year I'd be fine with extending him for another two years for the sake of continuity, and because the good candidates will go elsewhere anyway, but I wouldn't give him a three year deal unless that last year was a team option.

Our plays out of timeouts at the end of the game are still **** abysmal though new personnel or not. Cliff needs to hire an assistant for that task alone.

[yosemiteben]

The same players from last season are still on the team.

Guys on our roster last season that are not now:

Hendo
Lance
Vonleh
Maxiell
Biyombo
Taylor
Neal
Mo Williams
Pargo
MKG (given that he is out)

There are only five guys that were on our active roster opening night of the 2014-15 season that were on our active roster on opening night of the 2015-16 season. We have had a complete roster overhaul.

[yosemiteben]

I haven't seen anything masterful from Cliff this year.

We went from worst offense in the NBA to top 5 in the NBA and best possibly ever for any Charlotte NBA team in a single season. What does the guy have to do to get some credit around here?

[MasterIchiro]

Yeah that's nonsense. Cliff has turned a new group into a top-5 offense through training camp, exhibition season and the first 12 regular season games. Nic Batum constantly emphasizes that the team has alot of new players and they're learning how to play together.

Cho finally provided Cliff with the personnel he needed to build a successful offense adapted today's NBA.

There was alot of garbage on last year's roster and too many here pointed the bazooka at Clifford's head. To expect him to do something with last year's bunch is totally unrealistic.

[yosemiteben]

There was alot of garbage on last year's roster and too many here pointed the bazooka at Clifford's head. To expect him to do something with last year's bunch is totally unrealistic.

Agreed. I think it is pretty remarkable what he was able to accomplish last season with all the injuries and roster issues. It was literally a miracle that we were in any way in the playoff race in the month of March.

I think you are generally too harsh on our FO and I think they generally act reasonably, but even I will admit that the 2015 offseason was highly disappointing. There was significant turnover in our FO right before that offseason and I don't know how much that had to do with it, but guys across the board underperformed for us and I think to a man every single person that we let go is underperforming in their new locations (I guess MoWill would be the sole exception, but we didn't really let him go, he chose CLE).

By contrast this past offseason has been a breath of fresh air.

[MasterIchiro]

There was alot of garbage on last year's roster and too many here pointed the bazooka at Clifford's head. To expect him to do something with last year's bunch is totally unrealistic.

Agreed. I think it is pretty remarkable what he was able to accomplish last season with all the injuries and roster issues. It was literally a miracle that we were in any way in the playoff race in the month of March.

I think you are generally too harsh on our FO and I think they generally act reasonably, but even I will admit that the 2015 offseason was highly disappointing. There was significant turnover in our FO right before that offseason and I don't know how much that had to do with it, but guys across the board underperformed for us and I think to a man every single person that we let go is underperforming in their new locations (I guess MoWill would be the sole exception, but we didn't really let him go, he chose CLE).

By contrast this past offseason has been a breath of fresh air.

Well they finally owned up to their mistakes and gave up on the Biz and Vonleh picks and shipped out guys logging huge minutes (Lance and Hendo). They got something for Vonleh, even if it's just one year, it could be an audition for Batum that we needed to sell him on the coach, his teammates, the fans and the city, the owner as well. They even shopped the crap out of Cody.

So in one brief period they nearly cut ties with 3 lottery picks.

That's accountability.

[MasterIchiro]

This year they've already practically cut ties with PJ Hairston as well.

Again, accountability.

Cliff is getting more skill out there and proving he can do something with talent.

[Hornet Mania]

I haven't seen anything masterful from Cliff this year.

We went from worst offense in the NBA to top 5 in the NBA and best possibly ever for any Charlotte NBA team in a single season. What does the guy have to do to get some credit around here?

Top 5 in the NBA after 10 games, hardly much of a sample.

I don't expect the top 5 offensive ranking to hold, it might, but it is far from assured. When you only have ten games under your belt putting up 130 against Chicago and 116 last night against Brooklyn skew the results heavily. A lot of weird results if you look at the early returns, Memphis is 28/30 in defensive efficiency (below the Lakers and Sixers!) just for one example.

I think it is fair to say that the offense is a significant improvement over last season though, regardless of whether we're top 5 or top 15. I'm just not willing to crown Cliff for making us a top 5 offense when we have 72 games left to play. Much of the improvement seems to be putting Alfense to the side for long stretches and shooting 3s at a higher rate and percentage. I don't think that is strategic wizardry, but its true he should get at least some credit for being open to changes.

[Mystical Apples]

The players acquired over the summer weren't just upgrades they were massive upgrades. Batum, Lamb, Lin, Frank, and Hawes as a starting group could win you a lot of games.

Who wins? Be honest.

Team 1: Kemba, PJ, Marvin, Cody, Al (5 of the 6 starters so far this year)
Team 2: Lin, Lamb, Batum, Frank, Hawes