#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

[DY_nasty]

Lol. I can blame Cho for being the dummy that signed them to be starters (Marv) and 2nd stringers (Roberts). That Maxiell sh*t is on Clifford but Cho still get some blame because he coulda signed Whiteside or something instead.

Marv wasn't signed to be a starter though lol. roberts was fine when his job was only to bring the ball up the court and dump it off. roberts being told to initiate offense himself is entirely something else though. he transformed from a solid backup to a pathetic gilbert arenas clone in less than two months because clifford thought that was what offense was supposed to look like.

those are REALLY small misgivings to have when you weigh it against how far we've come as whole. all the trades, the overall roster's talent level has increased, handling of certain players, free agency (i remember when people wouldn't even entertain the idea of signing in charlotte). i'm not going to overlook all of that because some role players he signed to limited deals are put into positions that they shouldn't be.

And everyone in the league could've had whiteside - the guy who washed out of sacramento of all places. cmon

You have to work hard overlook all the progress this team has made since Cho showed up. Meanwhile, you've got a coach that thinks that a crippled al jefferson post up is the definition of an easy bucket. A guy that can't get the ball inbounded. A guy thats about to repeat his mistakes and turn Mo Williams into another Gary Neal/Ben Gordon/Brian Roberts undersizedSGthatcangethotandhopefullygetusbucketsorruinourchances player.

Well we went from a topped out .500 team into intentionally the worst team in NBA history back into a subpar .500 team under Cho. Wasn't nowhere to go but up after being the worst team in NBA history. Wake me up when we're winning 50 games under Cho which is possible but prolly 3 years from now. Pretty much stuck with this roster until the 2016-17 season.

I don't think Cho is a bad GM but I haven't been in agreement with much he's done since drafting MKG 3 years ago.

You're flatout dismissing everything that went down between those teams. That didn't just 'happen'. Bad contracts don't just transform into picks and cap space because you want them too.

[catch20two]

Marv wasn't signed to be a starter though lol.

I can't tell. He was signed to replace Mcbob. Zeller was recovering off a partially disastrous rookie campaign. I think it's safe to say Marv was signed to be a temporary starter as a stretch 4.

[Braggins]

I'm not at all convinced that Noel's body will handle a career as a defensive big man. And Zeller isn't exactly a bust.

I'll add that touting Noel as a future DPOY at this point is about as foolish as some people acting like Vonleh is definitely the second coming of Bosh. Noel is a good defensive prospect but he is coming off a major injury and hasn't exactly set the world on fire. I was skeptical of the Zeller pick, as many were, but I think it is looking more and more like a perfectly reasonable pick.

[catch20two]

Marv wasn't signed to be a starter though lol. roberts was fine when his job was only to bring the ball up the court and dump it off. roberts being told to initiate offense himself is entirely something else though. he transformed from a solid backup to a pathetic gilbert arenas clone in less than two months because clifford thought that was what offense was supposed to look like.

those are REALLY small misgivings to have when you weigh it against how far we've come as whole. all the trades, the overall roster's talent level has increased, handling of certain players, free agency (i remember when people wouldn't even entertain the idea of signing in charlotte). i'm not going to overlook all of that because some role players he signed to limited deals are put into positions that they shouldn't be.

And everyone in the league could've had whiteside - the guy who washed out of sacramento of all places. cmon

You have to work hard overlook all the progress this team has made since Cho showed up. Meanwhile, you've got a coach that thinks that a crippled al jefferson post up is the definition of an easy bucket. A guy that can't get the ball inbounded. A guy thats about to repeat his mistakes and turn Mo Williams into another Gary Neal/Ben Gordon/Brian Roberts undersizedSGthatcangethotandhopefullygetusbucketsorruinourchances player.

Well we went from a topped out .500 team into intentionally the worst team in NBA history back into a subpar .500 team under Cho. Wasn't nowhere to go but up after being the worst team in NBA history. Wake me up when we're winning 50 games under Cho which is possible but prolly 3 years from now. Pretty much stuck with this roster until the 2016-17 season.

I don't think Cho is a bad GM but I haven't been in agreement with much he's done since drafting MKG 3 years ago.

You're flatout dismissing everything that went down between those teams. That didn't just 'happen'. Bad contracts don't just transform into picks and cap space because you want them too.

No, you're totally flat out dismissing that I already called Cho a good accountant. Lol

[catch20two]

I'm not at all convinced that Noel's body will handle a career as a defensive big man. And Zeller isn't exactly a bust.

I'll add that touting Noel as a future DPOY at this point is about as foolish as some people acting like Vonleh is definitely the second coming of Bosh. Noel is a good defensive prospect but he is coming off a major injury and hasn't exactly set the world on fire. I was skeptical of the Zeller pick, as many were, but I think it is looking more and more like a perfectly reasonable pick.

Noel is averaging 2 blocks and 2 steals as a rookie. Just wait on it. The guy will be in DPOY discussions for years once the Sixers start trying to win and barring another serious injury which you could say barring serious injury about any player with a promising future.

[Braggins]

Marv wasn't signed to be a starter though lol.

I can't tell. He was signed to replace Mcbob. Zeller was recovering off a partially disastrous rookie campaign. I think it's safe to say Marv was signed to be a temporary starter as a stretch 4.

Regardless, it didn't take very long at all for it to become very clear that he was a barely passable backup. There is no reason for him to be anything more than a 15-20 minute guy on our roster with the players we have. 14 million over 2 years isn't the kind of contract that forces a coach to give a guy a major role as opposed to a smallish one. If he was playing in an appropriate role he would seem fine on our team and no one would have anything to complain about other than him being a fairly minor cap hit.

[Braggins]

I'm not at all convinced that Noel's body will handle a career as a defensive big man. And Zeller isn't exactly a bust.

I'll add that touting Noel as a future DPOY at this point is about as foolish as some people acting like Vonleh is definitely the second coming of Bosh. Noel is a good defensive prospect but he is coming off a major injury and hasn't exactly set the world on fire. I was skeptical of the Zeller pick, as many were, but I think it is looking more and more like a perfectly reasonable pick.

Noel is averaging 2 blocks and 2 steals as a rookie. Just wait on it. The guy will be in DPOY discussions for years once the Sixers start trying to win and barring another serious injury which you could say barring serious injury about any player with a promising future.

I'm not denying his potential. I just don't think that taking him over Zeller was an obvious pick considering his injury and and body type and we weren't the only team that passed on him. Noel is by no means a sure thing at this point and there are still some things to be concerned about with him. We also already had two quality centers (at the time, Al doesn't count anymore).

[catch20two]

Marv wasn't signed to be a starter though lol.

I can't tell. He was signed to replace Mcbob. Zeller was recovering off a partially disastrous rookie campaign. I think it's safe to say Marv was signed to be a temporary starter as a stretch 4.

Regardless, it didn't take very long at all for it to become very clear that he was a barely passable backup. There is no reason for him to be anything more than a 15-20 minute guy on our roster with the players we have. 14 million over 2 years isn't the kind of contract that forces a coach to give a guy a major role as opposed to a smallish one. If he was playing in an appropriate role he would seem fine on our team and no one would have anything to complain about other than him being a fairly minor cap hit.

You're singing to the choir. I've been trashing Clifford's rotations since his first regular season game last season and I'm far from a fan of Marv starting. I was against it from the very beginning. I was mad when Cliff named Marv starting PF before training camp even started while most were cool with it and argued me down about how it was going to be a good signing.

I think my arguments may be getting confused with Ichiro's arguments somewhere in here where people think I'm pro-Clifford and con-Cho. I consider them both questionable in my eyes where they should be on a warm seat. I understand why it may not be wise to replace them from a financial standpoint if I was MJ too. It's easy to think there's a replacement but that's not always the case because Clifford and Cho are successors to somebody before them. I just growing a intuition of thinking that one of them have to go and of course it's more likely Clifford in another year or two since this team could be over .500 if he stuck to our strength as a defensive team instead of going all Neil Armstrong about spacing.

[BeesWax]

I'm not at all convinced that Noel's body will handle a career as a defensive big man. And Zeller isn't exactly a bust.

He's prolly been less injured than Zeller this year. In fact he's played more games than Zeller this year so that's not a prolly, that's a fact.

In two seasons in the league Noel has played a whopping 66 games while Zeller has played 144. This year the difference is only 4 with Noel at 66 and Zeller at 62. There has to be concern about Noel as a long term prospect because he just looks so frail. I hope he pans out because he seems like a good kid but injuries have to be taken into account.

To this I did want Noel more than Zeller but to act like he is head and shoulders above him right now is a bit insane.

[yosemiteben]

I'm not at all convinced that Noel's body will handle a career as a defensive big man. And Zeller isn't exactly a bust.

He's prolly been less injured than Zeller this year. In fact he's played more games than Zeller this year so that's not a prolly, that's a fact.

Has nothing to do with this year. He came into the league weighing 200 pounds dripping wet. MKG is like four or five inches shorter and is scrawny himself and has like 15 pounds on him. If Noel wants to have a career as a center where he'll constantly be banging in the paint, whether for boards or on post defense, his huge weight discrepancy against legit size is going to be an issue.

[catch20two]

I'm not at all convinced that Noel's body will handle a career as a defensive big man. And Zeller isn't exactly a bust.

He's prolly been less injured than Zeller this year. In fact he's played more games than Zeller this year so that's not a prolly, that's a fact.

Has nothing to do with this year. He came into the league weighing 200 pounds dripping wet. MKG is like four or five inches shorter and is scrawny himself and has like 15 pounds on him. If Noel wants to have a career as a center where he'll constantly be banging in the paint, whether for boards or on post defense, his huge weight discrepancy against legit size is going to be an issue.

Lol. Oh so now it has nothing to do with this year. Everybody knew Noel was gonna miss all of last year. He could be as strong as a ox or fat as a Albus and still be injury prone or not. We see it all of the time. I don't even wanna argue about Noel over Zeller because I already said why it's understandable why Cho chose Zeller numerous times but that don't mean I can't be disappointed in the decision when I'm discussing what I consider Cho blunders. Over the past month Noel is averaging 13 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assist, 2 blocks, and 3 steals. He's becoming exactly what I expected him to be in the NBA, a defensive stat stuffing specialist regardless of how scrawny he is. I don't see you rushing to defend Biz when people always throw out Kawhi, Klay, and Faried when that's a different animal. Carry on.

[yosemiteben]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Noel weighs less than the average SG, but projects to play in the post his entire career. That would worry me. Not sure what Biz has to do with anything unless you want to argue that Biz is as lanky as Noel.

[BeesWax]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Noel weighs less than the average SG, but projects to play in the post his entire career. That would worry me. Not sure what Biz has to do with anything unless you want to argue that Biz is as lanky as Noel.

Biz came into the league 40 lbs heavier with no injury history but he is completely comparable to Noel who was hurt in high school and his only year of college.

[catch20two]

Not sure what Biz has to do with anything unless you want to argue that Biz is as lanky as Noel.

Biz was a example of your defense mechanism, not a comparison to Noel. You could go back and read what I said but I'm sure you don't read much but the first sentence of my post and skim thru the rest because that's how you respond.

[Robot Rock]

What does Noel have to do with Clifford?

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

What does Noel have to do with Clifford?

Nothing directly, but it's the circular argument that if Cho had "done a better job" then it wouldn't be so bad now. Essentially folks are looking for who to blame more, and Noel comes in as part of telling a story that Cho could have drafted better.

Personally I'm at the point where I actually hate to watch this team play ball and I'm convinced that most of the issues I'm seeing are due to Cliff's coaching. I don't think he's the worst coach ever, he's just an 'average' NBA coach. He does have some strengths, but his weaknesses basically make him the wrong guy for this particular group of players. What Cliff needs is a team of sharp shooting vets who will play D for him. He needs to not have many young guys on the team and he really shouldn't have guys who are specialists on one end of the floor. He could probably do pretty well on a team built specifically for him.

[yosemiteben]

I'm torn. I do think there are obvious ways that Cliff could improve, but I acknowledge that he has been dealing with unreliable players and a revolving door of guys in and out of the active roster all season, so it's tough for me to get too worked up about him at this point.

As for as our offense, for me it comes back to a discussion we had a while ago that it's a chicken and egg type situation - do shooters do poorly because Cliff has a bad system or does he just not have good shooters available? Post-ASB Marvin is actually shooting 45% from three on almost four attempts per game (bet you didn't know that). Was it Cliff's fault that he was shooting poorly pre-ASB? I don't think so, but maybe. Is it Cliff's fault that Neal and Lance fell off a cliff in their percentages this year? I don't think so, but maybe.

I think there is zero chance Cho goes anywhere (hell he was essentially just promoted), and I pretty much think the same about Cliff. I do think it will be very interesting to see how we adapt moving forward, and I think if we miss the playoffs then start out next year having the same season as this one then Cliff might find his way out the door by the ASB. It's premature at this point.

[fatlever]

I am curious to hear any arguments in favor of Clifford. Seems most of the board has their mind made up about him needing to go. Certainly there are some that want to see him stick around another year.

I will be honest, I am having a hard time lately convincing myself that he isn't to blame for many of our issues. I realize that the roster is a mess. I will also give him a pass on the injuries which have robbed us of any cohesion this year. But, our problems offensively and defensively (when MKG is off the floor) extend well beyond roster and injuries.

Anyway, lets hear from the other side today - even if its someone playing devil's advocate. What are some reasons for keeping Clifford around?

[yosemiteben]

(1) We will have fired four coaches in five years. Now we're talking about firing a guy that got us to the playoffs his first year because we struggled his second year. This is by far the biggest reason I'm opposed to firing him. One bad season, during which he had constant injury problems and underperforming additions, is not a good enough reason to fire him. He deserves more time to prove that his first year wasn't a fluke.

(2) We have had an elite defense with him, which is the only thing that this team has been able to call elite in a LONG time. People try to diminish that by pointing out how we have cratered when MKG has been out, which is a fair point, but I still argue that having an elite defense with Al logging major minutes is impressive. We crater because Cliff has to design a scheme to accommodate the pieces on this team, and guys like MKG and Cody play a big part of bridging the gap, but credit has to go to Cliff for making it work. You can't say our offense is Cliff's fault on the one hand but then say he doesn't get any credit for our defense on the other.

(3) Cliff treats his players well, is well liked by them and does not have conflict with the FO. He should get credit for working with Lance and helping him turn his season around - Lance looks much better on both sides of the ball recently than he did earlier in the season. By all accounts he is reasonable in how he interacts with the players and has earned their respect. That goes a long way.

With all that said, obviously Cliff is showing some negatives and he needs to be forced to evaluate those and adjust. That is what this offseason is for.

[BuzzKing60]

I'm not at all convinced that Noel's body will handle a career as a defensive big man. And Zeller isn't exactly a bust.

I'll add that touting Noel as a future DPOY at this point is about as foolish as some people acting like Vonleh is definitely the second coming of Bosh. Noel is a good defensive prospect but he is coming off a major injury and hasn't exactly set the world on fire. I was skeptical of the Zeller pick, as many were, but I think it is looking more and more like a perfectly reasonable pick.

I think Noel will have a bigger impact on their team than Zeller will have for ours. I wouldve taken Noel over Zeller 10 out of 10 times. Wayyyyy higher ceiling