Geometry: The Frank Kaminsky Thread

[yosemiteben]

Nice piece by Lamar on Frank, really like and agree with his analysis - http://bballbreakdown.com/2016/12/14/making-sense-of-hornets-frank-kaminsky/

[yosemiteben]

I'm not a big fan of the Bradford fellow when it comes to analysis, and that RPM tweet is a good example of why. He seems to me to be much more a hot take generator than someone who thinks through what is going on with the team.

[Zombiesonics]

The idea that frank needs to play so many minutes is ridiculous. You guys think he's going to break out of his slump, and what Go back to his poor shooting form last year? Just stagger mkg at the four like any modern coach would and play lamb more minutes. There really is no excuse for mkg not to see more minutes at the four. Don't wanna hear some nebulous concept that playing sf "helps him roam" .

[Mystical Apples]

Not something I'd advertise but fine, at least it's a commitment. Booker's VORP is 424 out of 443 players. His RPM is 297. He might eventually make shots but I seriously doubt his physical tools will allow for much else. I'd bank on a career of empty stats.

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The level of certainty here about Frank's position isn't supported by actual results. Frank has played a total of 598 minutes this season and Charlotte is +7.8 in Frank's 524 non-garbage minutes at PF. For context Cleveland is +7.6.

Frank's "problem" has been the 63 minutes at C (-37.2). I pointed this out 2 weeks ago.

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Sorry but this is just a word salad of nothingness. If the point is CHA has sucked with Frank at C then we agree, otherwise see above.

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[catch20two]

And Frank is shooting this bad while being wide open 75% of the time.

75% would be quite low for most PF/C 3-point shooters 90% is likely more accurate. But if shock effect is the goal then yes, golf clap on "WIDE OPEN" or "OPEN."

Eh I wanted to be generous.

[Zombiesonics]

Rpm and on/offs are not very accurate this time of year. Just look at the raw data and film, frank is not good. He is a purported shooter who can't shoot ,his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher. Weird hill to die on claiming frank can be excellent when he never was excellent over a period of time, not just one game.

[catch20two]

I'm just hoping Frank return to his level of play last season when he still sucked but sucked less lol.

[yosemiteben]

Just look at the raw data and film, frank is not good. He is a purported shooter who can't shoot ,his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher.his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher.

His best skill set is facilitating offense without turning the ball over. I legit don't understand how you can watch him and not think he has a high BBIQ. He generally takes good shots and helps create good shots for others, he's just in a slump right now.

[yosemiteben]

I'm just hoping Frank return to his level of play last season when he still sucked but sucked less lol.

Do you really think on the whole that Frank had a better season last season than this one?

[fatlever]

Nice piece by Lamar on Frank, really like and agree with his analysis - http://bballbreakdown.com/2016/12/14/making-sense-of-hornets-frank-kaminsky/

Thanks Lamar. Good stuff as always.

[Zombiesonics]

Just look at the raw data and film, frank is not good. He is a purported shooter who can't shoot ,his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher.his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher.

His best skill set is facilitating offense without turning the ball over. I legit don't understand how you can watch him and not think he has a high BBIQ.

"He has low turnovers" never heard this as a positive and reason to play someone 20 mpg+ at the power forward slot. Hawes averages more turnovers but is more efficient and avgs the same assists per 36; shouldn't hawes see his minutes? If you're gonna sit here and say having less turnovers is more important than being efficient than idk? We'll have to disagree, like we always do.

[Mystical Apples]

Anyone willing to commit feel free to drop your non-hindsight top 10 so we can track it. We'll even use a blended metric so as to avoid hopscotching all-in-one's based on whichever metric supports the opinion du jour. VORP, 538, and RPM wouldn't necessarily be my first choices but they're convenient and likely have staying power.

KAT, Russell, Porzingas, Winslow, Okafor, Kaminsky, Mudiay, Hezonja, RHJ, Turner.

As of today 4 players are ahead of FK in career VORP, RPM, and RPM Wins. Frank is ahead of 5 players drafted before him, 6 including WCS. Also FYI I excluded career Win Shares and 538 even though Kaminsky is 5th and ~ top 10 respectively.

Red = below Kaminsky in all 3
Orange = below FK in 2 of 3
Blue - below FK in 1 of 3

Take a bow if you had Larry Nance (and will stick with him).

[fatlever]

I'm just hoping Frank return to his level of play last season when he still sucked but sucked less lol.

Frank is in a shooting slump recently for sure, but I'm not sure how any of us who watch the Hornets day in and day out cannot agree that Frank, for the most part of the season, has been much improved over the version we saw last year.

[Mystical Apples]

The tail is wagging the dog here and maybe I missed the tweet where the defensive shortcomings were reductively laid at the doorstep of Hibbert, Marco, Harrison, Graham, Roberts, Batum, and Sessions cause those ratings aren't pretty either.

Controlling for teammate pt allocations and garbage minutes would help clear things up. Simply looking at the Marco/MKG dynamic would go a long way.

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Yeah 29% does suck. Not mentioned, however, was that most 3PA's by 4/5's are open. Here's a general breakdown of conversion rates...Frank already nailed the PF/C averages last year.

Wide Open/Open: ~ 37.7%
Overall: 35%
Forwards: 34.2%
Centers: 33.3%

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[catch20two]

I'm just hoping Frank return to his level of play last season when he still sucked but sucked less lol.

Frank is in a shooting slump recently for sure, but I'm not sure how any of us who watch the Hornets day in and day out cannot agree that Frank, for the most part of the season, has been much improved over the version we saw last year.

Based on so far? Yes, but he has a lot of time to turn it around and I hope he will.

He's less hesitant this year that's for sure but he's shooting much worse and his shooting last year wasn't really anything respectable or significant.

He had a higher PER and VORP last year than he's had so far this season. That's all I got to say.

[Mystical Apples]

Rpm and on/offs are not very accurate this time of year. Just look at the raw data and film, frank is not good. He is a purported shooter who can't shoot ,his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher. Weird hill to die on claiming frank can be excellent when he never was excellent over a period of time, not just one game.

Nah his shooting has sucked. Drives, Paint Touch FG%, asst/tov, Foul rate differentials, finishing on cuts he's above league average and/or position average. Basically everywhere on the court which isn't common for a pf/c. A few of those categories he's top 10%.

Even his Spot Ups which include the bad shooting he's above average for a 4/5

[yosemiteben]

"He has low turnovers" never heard this as a positive...

Talk to Cliff about that. That's a pillar of his system. It's a big part of what makes Kemba so special.

Being a playmaker that doesn't turn the ball over has tremendous value. Extra possessions (or fewer forfeited possessions) + better ball movement = more efficient offense.

[yosemiteben]

He had a higher PER and VORP last year than he's had so far this season. That's all I got to say.

Do you want to use PER and VORP to compare him to others in his draft class though? Cause if you look at MA's posts, he's still doing quite well.

I don't like PER as a stat generally and honestly haven't taken the time to fully understand how VORP operates so I don't care too much about either of those stats, but if you want to use them to criticize Frank then I think you also have to use them to compare him to others in his situation.

[catch20two]

He had a higher PER and VORP last year than he's had so far this season. That's all I got to say.

Do you want to use PER and VORP to compare him to others in his draft class though? Cause if you look at MA's posts, he's still doing quite well.

I don't like PER as a stat generally and honestly haven't taken the time to fully understand how VORP operates so I don't care too much about either of those stats, but if you want to use them to criticize Frank then I think you also have to use them to compare him to others in his situation.

I didn't mention one iota about his stats vs his draft class counterparts. I'm talking about how bad Frank is playing individually and playing 25+ minutes a night no fret.

[Mystical Apples]

Just look at the raw data and film, frank is not good. He is a purported shooter who can't shoot ,his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher.his best skill set is driving and he isn't even a good finisher.

His best skill set is facilitating offense without turning the ball over. I legit don't understand how you can watch him and not think he has a high BBIQ.

"He has low turnovers" never heard this as a positive and reason to play someone 20 mpg+ at the power forward slot. Hawes averages more turnovers but is more efficient and avgs the same assists per 36; shouldn't hawes see his minutes? If you're gonna sit here and say having less turnovers is more important than being efficient than idk? We'll have to disagree, like we always do.

The factors to look for are Assist Points, potential assists, and bad pass TOV's which is basically a way to express usage and efficiency per assist attempt. The NBA website doesn't calculate it for you but if interested look at "Potential Assists" relative to "Assists Points Created." You can also use secondary assists which minorly adds a defensive measurement.

Kaminsky's 6.7 APC off 4.5 potential assists is exceptional for a 4/5 without even accounting for the minimal TOV's. So is Nic's 12.5 and 9.7. There aren't 25 players who create more efficient points on high volume passing usage. For wings it's generally Batum, Lebron, Iggy, Giannis, Draymond, and Harden this year. For bigs Kaminsky, Jokic, Griffin, both Gasols, Noah, and Greg Monroe. Guards tend to be slightly less efficient but Paul is the benchmark.

That metric + Pull Up 2FG % + a Drives calculation tells you pretty much everything. Kemba + Marco + Batum have a really underrated collective skill set on or off ball.

http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612766&sort=AST_POINTS_CREATED&dir=1

NBA Miner has TOV types.

http://www.nbaminer.com/