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#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1641 » by LamarMatic7 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:38 pm

fatlever wrote:even if its someone playing devil's advocate. What are some reasons for keeping Clifford around?


Devil's advocate:

1) The players seemingly like him and play hard for him;

2) He's managed to create us into a top3 defensive team (after one summer, by the way) despite the fact that we have a sieve masking as a center. Look at the other good defensive squads. The majority have two real big men who are good at defense, Splitter and Duncan, Nene and Gortat, Randolph and Gasol, etc. We've got past that and still been elite at defense.

3) All of our recently drafted players have at least fulfilled their defensive potential. You might argue that MKG and Biz would have done it either way, but Cody, per example, has noticeably improved while playing for Clifford on defense.

4) The point above bodes well for the development of Noah Vonleh.

5) It's easy to point at our offense and say that "well, we're going to Al too much. we don't cut enough or run creative stuff, etc."
But you got to understand that it goes hand in hand with having real threats out there. Dallas can run funky stuff with Dirk as a decoy every time down the court. Or, you know, actually go to Dirk for real on a off-ball screen. Cleveland's Irving-LeBron, Irving-Love pick-n-rolls are practically unarguable.

We, meanwhile, seriously lack offensive threats and creativity on both parts (admittedly, both from the coaching staff and in our player skillsets). I mean, you can create so much by simply having dangerous offensive players, like Dirk, a shooter having some side-action on the weak-side off the court that keeps the defenses attention, a guard on whom you can't go under the screen, etc. you catch the drift. Players who have a certain skill at a good level have to be respected when put in screen situations.

In the case of our starting five, it seems like nobody's concerned about any of our players. Nobody cares that Hendo is coming off a pin-down, worst thing that can happen is an open mid-range shot. Nobody cares about Zeller in "horns". Let him have that 18-foot look.

The sets aren't creative but I think people have to acknowledge that you need certain players to execute them. They lose their appeal and don't force defense to make difficult judgements when the players involved aren't ones that you are concerned about leaving.

Just look what a difference Mo has made when being on the court, a real threat from all over the court:
ON: 102.5, OFF: 90.6

since Kemba returned:
ON: 98.6, OFF: 92.4

we have the best offense with him on the floor and the worst with him on the bench, among the ratings of our players (Biz has been a tad better in the period after Kemba's return)

6) Consistency is good, period. NBA teams change coaches at a rapid rate. Nothing wrong with maintaining a culture and developing it if you find a somewhat decent coach (we can at least agree that Clifford could be called that, even if he tops out in your opinion as someone who should be a "defensive coordinator"). Just look at the teams who've achieved success. You know, once upon a time Popovich was also almost fired. Or how about Rivers who also was awful at his rotations before learning on the job.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1642 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:44 pm

yosemiteben wrote:(1) We will have fired four coaches in five years.


That's bad ... but I'm a firm believer in cutting your losses. I've been around too many business situations where companies have thrown good money after bad. They felt like they had "invested too much" in a project/person/whatever and kept with it even though everyone knew it was doomed for failure. Successful organizations cut their losses when they realize things aren't working. Still endless chaos isn't really a good option either, so this is an argument, just not one I personally like.

yosemiteben wrote:(2) We have had an elite defense with him, which is the only thing that this team has been able to call elite in a LONG time.


The counter-arguments here are 1. that without MKG this team does not have an elite defense & 2. Cliff choses to not play his best defenders down the stretch and that's resulted in some losses. I think that it's fair to say that Cliff gets guys to try on D, including guys like Al last year who hadn't tried in a while. That's part of his people management strength though IMHO, moreso than him being a superior defensive coach. I do think that it's fair to credit him with both his strength & weakness here and agree that guys trying is a good thing overall.

yosemiteben wrote:(3) Cliff treats his players well, is well liked by them and does not have conflict with the FO.


This is the most solid pro-Cliff argument IMHO. It's his strength for the players who buy in. Obviously not Lance though, but I'll give you Kemba, Al, etc. Some of the things said last year were really strong. Question for anyone - have similar pro-Cliff statements come from the players this year?
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1643 » by ball teacher » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:37 pm

The only reason I can think to keep Cliff is cause we had so many injuries, and in the interest of being fair you would wanna see how we look without the injury depleted season (although you could argue that all teams deal with injuries). He isnt the reason we play better defense, we have solid defensive players and we are actually trying to win as opposed to the year before he arrived when we were tanking.

The whole coaching staff should be replaced imo, if Thibs from Chicago is fired we should get him, I also lile Lionel Hollins or even Sam Mitchell in Minny. He won coach of the year in Toronto and got canned the next season unjustly and hasnt head coached since. I dont want another small ball, perimeter oriented, Van Gundy clone as a coach.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1644 » by ball teacher » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:41 pm

Vanderbilt grad we have high character guys on the team. Everybody is willing to sacrifice for the team. Kemba did pout when he got benched the other day and that was rare cause we pretty much give the green light to Kemba, same with Al and a few other vets so they really have no reason to complain. The players not opposing the coach isnt strange and it's to be expected considering the guys we've brought in.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1645 » by yosemiteben » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:43 pm

Good post, only one response.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:Successful organizations cut their losses when they realize things aren't working.

But they lose credibility when four candidates in a row are deemed not to be working in such a short span. Successful organizations also do not fire their executives so frequently.

I literally cannot think of a worse history of coach treatment than our franchise if we let Cliff go so soon. Do we think coaching candidates just aren't going to care about that?
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1646 » by DY_nasty » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:19 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Good post, only one response.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:Successful organizations cut their losses when they realize things aren't working.

But they lose credibility when four candidates in a row are deemed not to be working in such a short span. Successful organizations also do not fire their executives so frequently.

I literally cannot think of a worse history of coach treatment than our franchise if we let Cliff go so soon. Do we think coaching candidates just aren't going to care about that?

Credibility is a thing. True. But people wanted Lance traded when that would've hurt FA credibility much more significantly. On the coaching end, it makes sense to say that we treated Dunlap far worse than if we were to fire Clifford at the end of the season. Just seems like people want to pick and choose when to apply that logic tbh.

I don't think anyone around the league really holds Larry Brown against us or Silas for that matter. No one cares about Vincent and Bernie is generally well regarded as a solid stint. Dunlap got done dirty, no way to skate around that. Clifford would just be a casualty of the NBA's overall view on coaches.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1647 » by yosemiteben » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:33 pm

My logic with Cliff is that he got us to the playoffs, which is typically a benchmark test of a good coach. Firing him the next year when we struggle sends a message that a good season with a playoff appearance provides no job security, and a coach can get fired the very next season regardless of extenuating circumstances. We have a bad enough history of poor job security without adding to it.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1648 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:56 pm

Stolen from the Kemba thread:

Joest2003 wrote:Kemba needs Al to stop cloggin up the paint, He was getting to the rim at will when Al was out. That was always his strength in college.


This made me wonder. I really remembered being excited about Al since he had some range on his shot back in Utah. So I dug up shot charts from this year and Al's last year in Utah.

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/playe ... shotchart/

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2012-2013/playe ... shotchart/

Look at the difference in the shots further away from the basket, even if you have to adjust for Al's missed time this year and the fact that the season isn't over yet.

Now, I don't think that Al has a great outside shot. His Utah percentages away from the rim weren't fantastic, but it's clearly a part of his game that isn't being used nearly as much here in Charlotte. I've got to think that this is Cliff's offense.

The positive spin would be that Cliff is telling Al to play to his strengths as a dominant inside scorer.

The negative spin would be that Cliff is forcing all to hang out in the low post as a part of his set offense. This could be part of why the Hornets have spacing issues and it's more difficult for guys like MKG to cut to the rim.

Food for thought.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1649 » by catch20two » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:00 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:Stolen from the Kemba thread:

Joest2003 wrote:Kemba needs Al to stop cloggin up the paint, He was getting to the rim at will when Al was out. That was always his strength in college.


This made me wonder. I really remembered being excited about Al since he had some range on his shot back in Utah. So I dug up shot charts from this year and Al's last year in Utah.

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/playe ... shotchart/

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2012-2013/playe ... shotchart/

Look at the difference in the shots further away from the basket, even if you have to adjust for Al's missed time this year and the fact that the season isn't over yet.

Now, I don't think that Al has a great outside shot. His Utah percentages away from the rim weren't fantastic, but it's clearly a part of his game that isn't being used nearly as much here in Charlotte. I've got to think that this is Cliff's offense.

The positive spin would be that Cliff is telling Al to play to his strengths as a dominant inside scorer.

The negative spin would be that Cliff is forcing all to hang out in the low post as a part of his set offense. This could be part of why the Hornets have spacing issues and it's more difficult for guys like MKG to cut to the rim.

Food for thought.

What about last year Al? He took some outside shots to a decent degree. How does it compare to Utah Al?
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1650 » by yosemiteben » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:17 pm

I would say cutting down on a midrange shot that Al hits only like 40% of the time is a good coaching decision.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1651 » by BeesWax » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:32 pm

yosemiteben wrote:I would say cutting down on a midrange shot that Al hits only like 40% of the time is a good coaching decision.

But the problem with that is it clogs the lane completely for a team full of slashers. Al would be better in the second unit with Marv and Williams who are shooters. So one good decision is accompanied by a couple poor ones.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1652 » by yosemiteben » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:58 pm

jdm3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I would say cutting down on a midrange shot that Al hits only like 40% of the time is a good coaching decision.

But the problem with that is it clogs the lane completely for a team full of slashers. Al would be better in the second unit with Marv and Williams who are shooters. So one good decision is accompanied by a couple poor ones.

Oh definitely agree there. I just think encouraging Al to shoot more midrange jumpers is like the worst possible solution.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1653 » by BeesWax » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:56 am

yosemiteben wrote:
jdm3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I would say cutting down on a midrange shot that Al hits only like 40% of the time is a good coaching decision.

But the problem with that is it clogs the lane completely for a team full of slashers. Al would be better in the second unit with Marv and Williams who are shooters. So one good decision is accompanied by a couple poor ones.

Oh definitely agree there. I just think encouraging Al to shoot more midrange jumpers is like the worst possible solution.

100 percent agree that it would be bad. I think Clifford needs to man up and play less Al and Max and more Noah and Biz.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1654 » by fatlever » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:22 am

jdm3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I would say cutting down on a midrange shot that Al hits only like 40% of the time is a good coaching decision.

But the problem with that is it clogs the lane completely for a team full of slashers. Al would be better in the second unit with Marv and Williams who are shooters. So one good decision is accompanied by a couple poor ones.


While playing Al next to Marvin might be better for offense (although I am not sure, since Al rarely passes to shooters anyway), that pairing is a mess defensively. Al needs Zeller next to him.

I have said this numerous times but assuming everyone is healthy, Cliff should try to play Al with Zeller and Marvin with Biz as much as possible. Those pairing complement each other better. Also with Marv and Al on the floor together our guards suffer since neither can set a screen.

Also, Mo needs a rim protector behind him more than Kemba does, so it makes sense to pair him with Biz.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1655 » by catch20two » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:31 am

Take notes Clipboard Clifford.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1656 » by LamarMatic7 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:46 am

fatlever wrote:
jdm3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I would say cutting down on a midrange shot that Al hits only like 40% of the time is a good coaching decision.

But the problem with that is it clogs the lane completely for a team full of slashers. Al would be better in the second unit with Marv and Williams who are shooters. So one good decision is accompanied by a couple poor ones.


While playing Al next to Marvin might be better for offense (although I am not sure, since Al rarely passes to shooters anyway), that pairing is a mess defensively. Al needs Zeller next to him.

I have said this numerous times but assuming everyone is healthy, Cliff should try to play Al with Zeller and Marvin with Biz as much as possible. Those pairing complement each other better. Also with Marv and Al on the floor together our guards suffer since neither can set a screen.

Also, Mo needs a rim protector behind him more than Kemba does, so it makes sense to pair him with Biz.


I wholeheartedly agree.

An extra point I'd make to your first paragraph is that our spacing doesn't make any sense to me whenever Marv is out there with Al. Why the hell should he be stationed on the other side of the lane, instead of out on the three point line!? Especially when we did so with McBob.

It's some coaching thing that I just don't understand and would love to talk about with the coaching staff in real life.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1657 » by catch20two » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:53 am

LamarMatic7 wrote:
fatlever wrote:
jdm3 wrote:But the problem with that is it clogs the lane completely for a team full of slashers. Al would be better in the second unit with Marv and Williams who are shooters. So one good decision is accompanied by a couple poor ones.


While playing Al next to Marvin might be better for offense (although I am not sure, since Al rarely passes to shooters anyway), that pairing is a mess defensively. Al needs Zeller next to him.

I have said this numerous times but assuming everyone is healthy, Cliff should try to play Al with Zeller and Marvin with Biz as much as possible. Those pairing complement each other better. Also with Marv and Al on the floor together our guards suffer since neither can set a screen.

Also, Mo needs a rim protector behind him more than Kemba does, so it makes sense to pair him with Biz.


I wholeheartedly agree.

An extra point I'd make to your first paragraph is that our spacing doesn't make any sense to me whenever Marv is out there with Al. Why the hell should he be stationed on the other side of the lane, instead of out on the three point line!? Especially when we did so with McBob.

It's some coaching thing that I just don't understand and would love to talk about with the coaching staff in real life.

At the beginning of the season I think Marv used to be there but since he's so-so at shooting from the left wing 3 Clifford changed the offense a bit to where Marv play the other side of the lane so if the ball swung correctly Marv would be stationed to take his 3 in the short corner. Unfortunately the ball is hardly ever swung correctly. Either Al gonna shoot thru a triple team, pass it to Kemba with the shot clock winding down, or Hendo will stop that ball movement at the second pass to call for a screen. Lol
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1658 » by BeesWax » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:53 am

LamarMatic7 wrote:
fatlever wrote:
jdm3 wrote:But the problem with that is it clogs the lane completely for a team full of slashers. Al would be better in the second unit with Marv and Williams who are shooters. So one good decision is accompanied by a couple poor ones.


While playing Al next to Marvin might be better for offense (although I am not sure, since Al rarely passes to shooters anyway), that pairing is a mess defensively. Al needs Zeller next to him.

I have said this numerous times but assuming everyone is healthy, Cliff should try to play Al with Zeller and Marvin with Biz as much as possible. Those pairing complement each other better. Also with Marv and Al on the floor together our guards suffer since neither can set a screen.

Also, Mo needs a rim protector behind him more than Kemba does, so it makes sense to pair him with Biz.


I wholeheartedly agree.

An extra point I'd make to your first paragraph is that our spacing doesn't make any sense to me whenever Marv is out there with Al. Why the hell should he be stationed on the other side of the lane, instead of out on the three point line!? Especially when we did so with McBob.

It's some coaching thing that I just don't understand and would love to talk about with the coaching staff in real life.

I was messing around today and it is weird that the NBA.com stats were showing Marvin as a capable defender compared to Zeller. Marv had better numbers outside while Zeller was better inside. Both held their opponents to less than their normal shooting percentages too.

These were post all star numbers.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1659 » by mrknowitall215 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Interesting (at least to me) to read Bonnell mention the questionable nature of Clifford being fired in his blog last night even if he did totally dismiss the notion of it

Clifford fired? No: I get a bunch of questions about whether Steve Clifford’s job is in danger. If management were to say the Hornets would be better off next season without Clifford than with Clifford, that should be a great reason for fans to wonder where this franchise is going. It would be a horrible decision.

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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1660 » by Hornet Mania » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:45 pm

Bonnell thinks Clifford is untouchable? In that case Clifford being fired: Confirmed

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