Super Lintendo: The Jeremy Lin Thread

[kastuul]

ESPN released their 2015-16 NBA player rankings. ESPN thinks Lin is worse than Patrick Beverly, Jordan Clarkson because Lin had to back up those guys. Surprisingly, ESPN also ranks Lin below former Hornet Noah Vonleh -- that's just ridiculous.

Lin's ESPN ranking falls but his 2K rating rises.

He has been a bball player who is overrated and underrated simultaneously, and is judged by double standard.

[Lorenzomax7]

ESPN released their 2015-16 NBA player rankings. ESPN thinks Lin is worse than Patrick Beverly, Jordan Clarkson because Lin had to back up those guys. Surprisingly, ESPN also ranks Lin below former Hornet Noah Vonleh -- that's just ridiculous.

Lin's ESPN ranking falls but his 2K rating rises.

He has been a bball player who is overrated and underrated simultaneously, and is judged by double standard.

His 2K rating remained the same(75), didn't it?

[miniman]

I think that Lin is good enough to start right now on many teams but he still has to prove it with stats backing this up and this a great place for him to do that (not by starting but by overall contributions).

Sorry if I caused this little debate, was just peeved that many still think he was a bad player but I'm confident that Lin will change perceptions this year.

Ftr, not hoping for him to supersede Kemba or anything like that, I like Kemba Walker and hope that he has a great year. As long as Lin gets around 30 mins, I think he should put up some respectable numbers and help make the team better.

Totally agree with you. Hope Lin can gets around 30 mins this year...

For me, I prefer him to be a starter but being a starter or bench player matters less if the minutes are right, and Lin is put in the right role.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYYgffBM-PU[/youtube]

[ChokeFasncists]

A lot will tell you that he's not a full-time starting caliber PG, which I mostly agree with.

If he plays well consistently, tones down on his TOs and fights thru screens better, he will be one.

this is the same stuff people use to make it seem like Lin is "inconsistent" or not good enough as a starter. How does one "tone" down turnovers? everyone is going to make a bad pass every once in a while but you don't get down on playmakers. because Harden scores a ton of points off a ton of shots, people forget he turns the ball over 4 times a game. Westbrook 4.4. Rose 3.2. who would you rather have, Lin attacking the basket or Lin making the safe pass?

TOs isn't really just about stats. He makes boneheaded plays and then get down on himself, he's gotta eliminate that. A lot of his TOs are from making risky passes and I'm OK with them. However, a lot of them come from dribbling into a wall, jumping then look to pass and getting his pocket picked leading to an easy layup. None of this is acceptable. None of that has happened so far and I'm real real glad.

fighting through screens is another boring response. screens require team defense. most players have trouble fighting through screens. that's why teams set them.

That's true, but there's a gradation on whether one is totally trapped in it, or can go thru after a little bit or totally not bothered by it. He needs to be further from being totally trapped. One can see that he has gotten better at it this year. There's no reason he can't do it, it's a mentality thing. (I've an impression that he did better in GSW, anyone knows?) He is a good defender, but this is definitely one reason he's got a bad rep on D. Once he's conquered this problem, he'll be totally legit in his D.

as for consistency, it's harder to be consistent in play if your playing time is inconsistent. if you're a bench player, you have a 3-4 minute stretch where you can't hit anything well that's a large portion of your playing time. you can't "play" through your slumps. game to game you might see variations and Lin is prone to some bad games but looking at his overall stats, he is pretty consistent season to season. that's why I want to see Lin play "starter" minutes and play his game. if he is consistent, his stats will show it. last season, three Hornets shot 15-16 fga per game. if Lin maintains his PPS, that's over 19 ppg. it's not like he's just played other teams' bench players. He's started almost 60% of games played.

Again, you are looking at stats rather than the specific games. Lin could play great one game and be a liability the next, even when he was starting. That's not very good as a bonafide starter. He himself admitted that it might have been caused by his shooting form, which causes fatigue, and he that's why he's changing it. Also he lets his bad plays go into his head, that's a big no-no in this league. He has to just keep making plays. But if he makes boneheaded plays, it's a vicious cycle. It looks like he's more mature this year. Making excuses isn't gonna get him anywhere. You are saying his stats look consistent season to season but those are not surefire starter's stats. He's capable of 17/7. He was getting close to 50/40/90 at the beginning of last season, then wtf? he's gotta keep that up no matter what the coach is saying or what others are doing. Whenever he's got that figured out, he's back to stardom.

In most areas, he's obviously talented enough to be a starter, it's just really regrettable that he let some small flaws prevent his game from being elevated to another level. It's already an uphill battle to begin with, he can't also be shooting himself in the foot.

[leeramundo]

If he plays well consistently, tones down on his TOs and fights thru screens better, he will be one.

this is the same stuff people use to make it seem like Lin is "inconsistent" or not good enough as a starter. How does one "tone" down turnovers? everyone is going to make a bad pass every once in a while but you don't get down on playmakers. because Harden scores a ton of points off a ton of shots, people forget he turns the ball over 4 times a game. Westbrook 4.4. Rose 3.2. who would you rather have, Lin attacking the basket or Lin making the safe pass?

TOs isn't really just about stats. He makes boneheaded plays and then get down on himself, he's gotta eliminate that. A lot of his TOs are from making risky passes and I'm OK with them. However, a lot of them come from dribbling into a wall, jumping then look to pass and getting his pocket picked leading to an easy layup. None of this is acceptable. None of that has happened so far and I'm real real glad.

fighting through screens is another boring response. screens require team defense. most players have trouble fighting through screens. that's why teams set them.

That's true, but there's a gradation on whether one is totally trapped in it, or can go thru after a little bit or totally not bothered by it. He needs to be further from being totally trapped. One can see that he has gotten better at it this year. There's no reason he can't do it, it's a mentality thing. (I've an impression that he did better in GSW, anyone knows?) He is a good defender, but this is definitely one reason he's got a bad rep on D. Once he's conquered this problem, he'll be totally legit in his D.

as for consistency, it's harder to be consistent in play if your playing time is inconsistent. if you're a bench player, you have a 3-4 minute stretch where you can't hit anything well that's a large portion of your playing time. you can't "play" through your slumps. game to game you might see variations and Lin is prone to some bad games but looking at his overall stats, he is pretty consistent season to season. that's why I want to see Lin play "starter" minutes and play his game. if he is consistent, his stats will show it. last season, three Hornets shot 15-16 fga per game. if Lin maintains his PPS, that's over 19 ppg. it's not like he's just played other teams' bench players. He's started almost 60% of games played.

Again, you are looking at stats rather than the specific games. Lin could play great one game and be a liability the next, even when he was starting. That's not very good as a bonafide starter. He himself admitted that it might have been caused by his shooting form, which causes fatigue, and he that's why he's changing it. Also he lets his bad plays go into his head, that's a big no-no in this league. He has to just keep making plays. But if he makes boneheaded plays, it's a vicious cycle. It looks like he's more mature this year. Making excuses isn't gonna get him anywhere. You are saying his stats look consistent season to season but those are not surefire starter's stats. He's capable of 17/7. He was getting close to 50/40/90 at the beginning of last season, then wtf? he's gotta keep that up no matter what the coach is saying or what others are doing. Whenever he's got that figured out, he's back to stardom.

In most areas, he's obviously talented enough to be a starter, it's just really regrettable that he let some small flaws prevent his game from being elevated to another level. It's already an uphill battle to begin with, he can't also be shooting himself in the foot.

He had a reputation as a hustle/defense player when he was in Golden State, although he never really got much playing time if I remember to really evaluate.

I do agree about the turnovers. I always felt part of that was his lack of a floater. Sometimes he drove into the paint, only to find himself unable to find a layup and end up having to make a bad pass. A floater could help here. He hasn't gone to the floater much this preseason but still haven't made those kinds of TO's. I haven't caught many of the games so far, only a few quarters here and there, but what I've seen is he's more patient when driving in. He's not rushing for a layup or a pass, dribbling out of the paint if nothing's there. It could also be that the spacing is better as Fatlever pointed out. I didn't catch the game where he had 4 TO's, can anyone that saw it tell me what kind of TO's they were?

[AustinPowers]

I try not to be verbose on forums and won't start here. But these TOs by Lin where he gets too deep and ends up in no mans land, can be alleviated somewhat by the floater he said he worked on in the offseason OR by having your shooters move along the arc with the PG.

Football correlation: Jason Witten of the Cowboys is great at sneaking into the zone defense and finding the hole to provide a passing lane. As a PG probes into the interior, the wing shooters can either stand and wait for the pass or shuffle their feet along the arc and keep in a passing lane. It's all part of court awareness. I personally thought Steve Novak was great at this with Lin during Linsanity. Probe probe probe ..... shuffle shuffle shuffle .... kickout... nothing but net. This comes from awareness and familiarity IMO. I also think Wesley Johnson & Nick Young do not have this "shuffle the arc" awareness.

[tonman]

If he plays well consistently, tones down on his TOs and fights thru screens better, he will be one.

this is the same stuff people use to make it seem like Lin is "inconsistent" or not good enough as a starter. How does one "tone" down turnovers? everyone is going to make a bad pass every once in a while but you don't get down on playmakers. because Harden scores a ton of points off a ton of shots, people forget he turns the ball over 4 times a game. Westbrook 4.4. Rose 3.2. who would you rather have, Lin attacking the basket or Lin making the safe pass?

TOs isn't really just about stats. He makes boneheaded plays and then get down on himself, he's gotta eliminate that. A lot of his TOs are from making risky passes and I'm OK with them. However, a lot of them come from dribbling into a wall, jumping then look to pass and getting his pocket picked leading to an easy layup. None of this is acceptable. None of that has happened so far and I'm real real glad.

fighting through screens is another boring response. screens require team defense. most players have trouble fighting through screens. that's why teams set them.

That's true, but there's a gradation on whether one is totally trapped in it, or can go thru after a little bit or totally not bothered by it. He needs to be further from being totally trapped. One can see that he has gotten better at it this year. There's no reason he can't do it, it's a mentality thing. (I've an impression that he did better in GSW, anyone knows?) He is a good defender, but this is definitely one reason he's got a bad rep on D. Once he's conquered this problem, he'll be totally legit in his D.

as for consistency, it's harder to be consistent in play if your playing time is inconsistent. if you're a bench player, you have a 3-4 minute stretch where you can't hit anything well that's a large portion of your playing time. you can't "play" through your slumps. game to game you might see variations and Lin is prone to some bad games but looking at his overall stats, he is pretty consistent season to season. that's why I want to see Lin play "starter" minutes and play his game. if he is consistent, his stats will show it. last season, three Hornets shot 15-16 fga per game. if Lin maintains his PPS, that's over 19 ppg. it's not like he's just played other teams' bench players. He's started almost 60% of games played.

Again, you are looking at stats rather than the specific games. Lin could play great one game and be a liability the next, even when he was starting. That's not very good as a bonafide starter. He himself admitted that it might have been caused by his shooting form, which causes fatigue, and he that's why he's changing it. Also he lets his bad plays go into his head, that's a big no-no in this league. He has to just keep making plays. But if he makes boneheaded plays, it's a vicious cycle. It looks like he's more mature this year. Making excuses isn't gonna get him anywhere. You are saying his stats look consistent season to season but those are not surefire starter's stats. He's capable of 17/7. He was getting close to 50/40/90 at the beginning of last season, then wtf? he's gotta keep that up no matter what the coach is saying or what others are doing. Whenever he's got that figured out, he's back to stardom.

In most areas, he's obviously talented enough to be a starter, it's just really regrettable that he let some small flaws prevent his game from being elevated to another level. It's already an uphill battle to begin with, he can't also be shooting himself in the foot.

1. my point about turnovers has nothing to do with stats. it is about the kinds of turnovers. I would rather Lin drive to the basket and get stuck and turn the ball over versus where he gets it stolen at the top of the key or a bad entry pass or a risky pass cross court. I prefer aggression and putting the defense on their heels. for every turnover due to aggression, if you keep playing at that level, you'll get more in return i.e. more points or chances on offense. yes you still have to play under control but remember he really only has one year as a full time starter since Linsanity.

2. of course there's gradation of "fighting through screens". he's improved at this. I think he's "average". I'm not wanting Lin to become an "all star" that depends on how he plays. but if he's going to do well on offense and becomes "legit" on defense, man he's an all star player. you play to your players' strengths while hiding your players' weaknesses. and just think about it. you're also asking Lin at 6'3 to defend SG and he's done this the last 2 seasons whether he's in there small ball in Houston or in for Harden or when he played with Clarkson last season in the backcourt. Lin isn't a bad defensive player but everyone one harps on "fighting through screens".

3. the reason I went with seasonal stats is just because of the highs and lows of a bench player. the fact that Lin can come in and drop 20 points or even have the chance to come up with a triple double like he did in Houston off the bench means that his potential is high. and you talk of bone headed plays as if Lin's boneheaded plays are more boneheaded than anyone else's. you don't think every player on this team makes their share of boneheaded plays? I watched Russell Westbrook the other day and he made several bad plays but guess what, they keep giving him the ball and over the course of the game, the good plays outnumber the bad.

I must admit, this forum is pretty cool. it gives kudos to those who play well and bashes any players who plays badly equally. Following Lin the past few years, there's always the Harden crowd or Beverley crowd or Kobe crowd that have blinders on. BTW, original Hornets fan from their first season since I'm from NC but since I live in the Southwest, when we lost the franchise to NO, I haven't followed the Bobcats or this team until Lin (and Hansbrough) joined.

[spaceballer]

Longer 9 minute highlights from Bulls game

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3aVR9BhuH4[/youtube]

[Roy Tarpley]

A lot will tell you that he's not a full-time starting caliber PG, which I mostly agree with.

If he plays well consistently, tones down on his TOs and fights thru screens better, he will be one.

I respectfully disagree with you both. Lin is ALREADY a full-time starting caliber PG.

- He proved it by leading the Knicks, as a STARTER, to the playoffs in 2012.
- He was a STARTER with a Rockets team that made the playoffs in 2013.
- He was the 6th man on the 2014 Rockets, but more because management decided that Harden's "Ole!" defense and ball-dominant requirements made Lin more effective as a 6th man.
- He was an effective starter with the Lakers for the first month of the 2014-15 season (45%, 37%, 85%) but Byron Scott erroneously blamed the Lakers' poor start on Lin and Boozer when the poor play was really attributable to Kobe's ball-hogging ways (Kobe shot 24 shots a game at a 39% clip in November) and poor interior defense from Jordan Hill and Carlos Boozer. When Kobe got injured, Lin came back and was AGAIN an effective STARTER before Byron pulled the plug on the season and officially went into tank mode by starting Jordan Clarkson.

The Hornets just got a full-time starting caliber PG for $2 million/year based on some fortunate circumstances. If there is a fantasy gambling site that prices Lin based on lazy perceptions (e.g., ESPN ranking him below people like Noah Vonleh!), I would definitely take him as a certain value pick!

[ChokeFasncists]

A lot will tell you that he's not a full-time starting caliber PG, which I mostly agree with.

If he plays well consistently, tones down on his TOs and fights thru screens better, he will be one.

I respectfully disagree with you both. Lin is ALREADY a full-time starting caliber PG.

- He proved it by leading the Knicks, as a STARTER, to the playoffs in 2012.
- He was a STARTER with a Rockets team that made the playoffs in 2013.
- He was the 6th man on the 2014 Rockets, but more because management decided that Harden's "Ole!" defense and ball-dominant requirements made Lin more effective as a 6th man.
- He was an effective starter with the Lakers for the first month of the 2014-15 season (45%, 37%, 85%) but Byron Scott erroneously blamed the Lakers' poor start on Lin and Boozer when the poor play was really attributable to Kobe's ball-hogging ways (Kobe shot 24 shots a game at a 39% clip in November) and poor interior defense from Jordan Hill and Carlos Boozer. When Kobe got injured, Lin came back and was AGAIN an effective STARTER before Byron pulled the plug on the season and officially went into tank mode by starting Jordan Clarkson.

The Hornets just got a full-time starting caliber PG for $2 million/year based on some fortunate circumstances. If there is a fantasy gambling site that prices Lin based on lazy perceptions (e.g., ESPN ranking him below people like Noah Vonleh!), I would definitely take him as a certain value pick!

I agree with you, except two things. 1. What you said is "was". Fact is, he didn't get a team to sign him to a starters contract. 2. When I said "will", it means absolutely, while you're arguing he could be.

[ChokeFasncists]

1. my point about turnovers has nothing to do with stats. it is about the kinds of turnovers. I would rather Lin drive to the basket and get stuck and turn the ball over versus where he gets it stolen at the top of the key or a bad entry pass or a risky pass cross court. I prefer aggression and putting the defense on their heels. for every turnover due to aggression, if you keep playing at that level, you'll get more in return i.e. more points or chances on offense. yes you still have to play under control but remember he really only has one year as a full time starter since Linsanity.

Cool, well, what I meant was, toning down on his bad TOs.

2. of course there's gradation of "fighting through screens". he's improved at this. I think he's "average". I'm not wanting Lin to become an "all star" that depends on how he plays. but if he's going to do well on offense and becomes "legit" on defense, man he's an all star player. you play to your players' strengths while hiding your players' weaknesses. and just think about it. you're also asking Lin at 6'3 to defend SG and he's done this the last 2 seasons whether he's in there small ball in Houston or in for Harden or when he played with Clarkson last season in the backcourt. Lin isn't a bad defensive player but everyone one harps on "fighting through screens".

I never said he's a bad defensive player, it's just a weakness of his that should be addressed, something that he seems to be doing. He said he wants to be a starter in this league and I don't imagine he wants to be a liability in any form.

3. the reason I went with seasonal stats is just because of the highs and lows of a bench player. the fact that Lin can come in and drop 20 points or even have the chance to come up with a triple double like he did in Houston off the bench means that his potential is high. and you talk of bone headed plays as if Lin's boneheaded plays are more boneheaded than anyone else's. you don't think every player on this team makes their share of boneheaded plays? I watched Russell Westbrook the other day and he made several bad plays but guess what, they keep giving him the ball and over the course of the game, the good plays outnumber the bad.

Westbrook does make boneheaded plays but he also possesses superhuman athleticism, something Lin doesn't. Lin is IMO more suitable to be a steady/pacing/leader pure point and the players that are good at this don't make a lot of boneheaded plays.

I must admit, this forum is pretty cool. it gives kudos to those who play well and bashes any players who plays badly equally. Following Lin the past few years, there's always the Harden crowd or Beverley crowd or Kobe crowd that have blinders on. BTW, original Hornets fan from their first season since I'm from NC but since I live in the Southwest, when we lost the franchise to NO, I haven't followed the Bobcats or this team until Lin (and Hansbrough) joined.

Sounds good!

[KM6]

If he plays well consistently, tones down on his TOs and fights thru screens better, he will be one.

I respectfully disagree with you both. Lin is ALREADY a full-time starting caliber PG.

- He proved it by leading the Knicks, as a STARTER, to the playoffs in 2012.
- He was a STARTER with a Rockets team that made the playoffs in 2013.
- He was the 6th man on the 2014 Rockets, but more because management decided that Harden's "Ole!" defense and ball-dominant requirements made Lin more effective as a 6th man.
- He was an effective starter with the Lakers for the first month of the 2014-15 season (45%, 37%, 85%) but Byron Scott erroneously blamed the Lakers' poor start on Lin and Boozer when the poor play was really attributable to Kobe's ball-hogging ways (Kobe shot 24 shots a game at a 39% clip in November) and poor interior defense from Jordan Hill and Carlos Boozer. When Kobe got injured, Lin came back and was AGAIN an effective STARTER before Byron pulled the plug on the season and officially went into tank mode by starting Jordan Clarkson.

The Hornets just got a full-time starting caliber PG for $2 million/year based on some fortunate circumstances. If there is a fantasy gambling site that prices Lin based on lazy perceptions (e.g., ESPN ranking him below people like Noah Vonleh!), I would definitely take him as a certain value pick!

I agree with you, except two things. 1. What you said is "was". Fact is, he didn't get a team to sign him to a starters contract. 2. When I said "will", it means absolutely, while you're arguing he could be.

1. He didn't get a single team to sign him to a starting job due to many reasons, none of them being his ability to play like one, just my opinion. But I ask you to see with your own eyes this season and judge for yourself objectively.
2. A lot of people would agree with you that he is not a starting caliber PG, but there are also a lot of people who believe he is. So I don't agree with your second point.

[Roy Tarpley]

If he plays well consistently, tones down on his TOs and fights thru screens better, he will be one.

I respectfully disagree with you both. Lin is ALREADY a full-time starting caliber PG.

- He proved it by leading the Knicks, as a STARTER, to the playoffs in 2012.
- He was a STARTER with a Rockets team that made the playoffs in 2013.
- He was the 6th man on the 2014 Rockets, but more because management decided that Harden's "Ole!" defense and ball-dominant requirements made Lin more effective as a 6th man.
- He was an effective starter with the Lakers for the first month of the 2014-15 season (45%, 37%, 85%) but Byron Scott erroneously blamed the Lakers' poor start on Lin and Boozer when the poor play was really attributable to Kobe's ball-hogging ways (Kobe shot 24 shots a game at a 39% clip in November) and poor interior defense from Jordan Hill and Carlos Boozer. When Kobe got injured, Lin came back and was AGAIN an effective STARTER before Byron pulled the plug on the season and officially went into tank mode by starting Jordan Clarkson.

The Hornets just got a full-time starting caliber PG for $2 million/year based on some fortunate circumstances. If there is a fantasy gambling site that prices Lin based on lazy perceptions (e.g., ESPN ranking him below people like Noah Vonleh!), I would definitely take him as a certain value pick!

I agree with you, except two things. 1. What you said is "was". Fact is, he didn't get a team to sign him to a starters contract. 2. When I said "will", it means absolutely, while you're arguing he could be.

I was focusing on MKG's statement that Lin is a not a "full-time starting caliber PG" -- which is a statement about innate ability and potential, not whether he currently has a starter's contract. The disparity between our two positions should disappear after Lin plays a full year under Clifford.

[ChokeFasncists]

I was focusing on MKG's statement that Lin is a not a "full-time starting caliber PG" -- which is a statement about innate ability and potential, not whether he currently has a starter's contract.

He definitely has that! Well, but a lot of talented players don't end up fulfilling their potential due to certain fatal flaws, let's hope that's not the case here!

The disparity between our two positions should disappear after Lin plays a full year under Clifford.

For sure if he plays the whole season like the past few games!

1. He didn't get a single team to sign him to a starting job due to many reasons, none of them being his ability to play like one, just my opinion. But I ask you to see with your own eyes this season and judge for yourself objectively.
2. A lot of people would agree with you that he is not a starting caliber PG, but there are also a lot of people who believe he is. So I don't agree with your second point.

1. I do believe he has the ability to play like one but he hasn't done so consistently.
2. I'm not sure you understand, I meant if he takes care of those three things, he is absolutely a starting caliber point guard, rather than he could arguably be one right now.

[Braggins]

What if Kemba and Lin play a lot together and it works really well and they become bff's off the court and the two super fan bases combine to form one mega Kemba/Lin super fan movement? #Illuminati

[yosemiteben]

What if Kemba and Lin play a lot together and it works really well and they become bff's off the court and the two super fan bases combine to form one mega Kemba/Lin super fan movement? #Illuminati

Jeremy LamblinWalker

Gonna be tough to fend off the locals that are stoked to have Hansbrough, PJ, and Marv all on one team.

[Braggins]

What if Kemba and Lin play a lot together and it works really well and they become bff's off the court and the two super fan bases combine to form one mega Kemba/Lin super fan movement? #Illuminati

Jeremy LamblinWalker

Gonna be tough to fend off the locals that are stoked to have Hansbrough, PJ, and Marv all on one team.

I forgot Lamb lol.

[lin is ok]

can we stop calling lin a good solid backup PG? even if he is put in that position? I am fine with him being 6th man if he has to , to babysit the 2nd unit. frankly he doesn't deserve that label.

[lin is ok]

jeremy lin hair

[lin is ok]

beware of the hair