#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

Post #1661 » by **yosemiteben** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:56 pm

Post #1662 » by **JDR720** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:44 pm

I think thats pretty good, I would definitely take most of the coaches ranked higher over Cliff.

Hornet Mania · Post #1663 » by **Hornet Mania** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:32 pm

Yeah, the only guy above Cliff who I would consider clearly worse is Casey. Ranking seems fair. Hornacek gets jobbed though. People forget what crap the Suns looked like before he came along and inexplicably made them a winner overnight.

MasterIchiro · Post #1664 » by **MasterIchiro** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Cliff outranks both Cho and MJ. But they're all closer to the bottom when we need them nearest the top. I think chemistry is important, along with familiarity so I want to see Clifford have 1 more year and hopefully without Al Jefferson as a crutch. We've seen what Cho did with 20 M in cap space. He'll have more than that before the start of the 2016-2017.

Post #1665 » by **yosemiteben** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:13 pm

Cliff got 9 last year. He's the same guy. These lists are a total what have you done lately ranking among random pundits.

Vanderbilt_Grad · Post #1666 » by **Vanderbilt_Grad** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:31 pm

I don't put much stock in those lists, but Cliff's fall is due to more than just what have you done for me lately. Just like folks expect a 2nd year player to show some improvement, they expect a 2nd year coach to show improvement. Cliff hasn't.

catch20two · Post #1667 » by **catch20two** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:19 am

Cliff got exposed with expectations. And he hasn't got better with rotations which was like his only glaring weakness as a rookie coach.

MasterIchiro · Post #1668 » by **MasterIchiro** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:22 am

It's easy to prep against a roster that didn't change and won't change next year either. Advanced scouts exposed Alfense and we don't have scorers to generate any kind of consistent alternative. Same roster, easier to scheme against this time around. Coaches should adjust but if the toolbox is the same broken tools there's no way to fix the issues the GM was supposed to fix. Plus Al has been much worse this year. Plus no McRoberts.

Post #1669 » by **yosemiteben** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:31 am

The guy that carried us into the playoffs last year has been hobbled all year. Kemba started out terrible, played well for a few weeks, then was out forever and hasn't been great since he got back. Lance is performing much worse than a guy we plucked out of the D league last year.

So we downgraded in multiple starting positions and on our bench. It's hardly apples to apples to say Cliff is playing with the same hand he got dealt last year.

thruthefire · Post #1670 » by **thruthefire** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:52 am

It's an issue, folks.

Eoghan · Post #1671 » by **Eoghan** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:09 am

yosemiteben wrote:The guy that carried us into the playoffs last year has been hobbled all year.

Poor McRoberts, I wonder how he's doing?

Al Kidd-Walker · Post #1672 » by **Al Kidd-Walker** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:22 am

He sure is a wizard at drawing up last second plays

Vanderbilt_Grad · Post #1673 » by **Vanderbilt_Grad** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:26 am

yosemiteben wrote:The guy that carried us into the playoffs last year has been hobbled all year. Kemba started out terrible, played well for a few weeks, then was out forever and hasn't been great since he got back. Lance is performing much worse than a guy we plucked out of the D league last year.

So we downgraded in multiple starting positions and on our bench. It's hardly apples to apples to say Cliff is playing with the same hand he got dealt last year.

It's not just about the injuries. His rotations are a huge weakness. The team doesn't score off of timeouts. He has a hard time adjusting to new situations. He dealt really poorly with Lance (and I'm not saying that Lance's poor play is due to Cliff - I'm saying that Cliff showed pretty clearly that he can't handle guys like Lance with grace).

I could go on, but again, I don't hate Cliff. I just think that he's as best an average NBA coach and I really don't expect him to grow or improve given his stubbornness. I do think that Cliff could have success in a situation that was designed to maximize his strengths, but that's not here ... and not at most other teams either. And this is the long winded way of saying that the downgrade was justified and not just the record, the injuries, or the roster Cho gave him.

Post #1674 » by **yosemiteben** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:06 am

I get the rotation complaint, I really do, but reality is that he doesn't have the same calibre of team at this point in the season that he had last year. Saying he's worse this year than last year ignores that he had a legitimately better team last year. He had healthy guys that established a better sense of consistency, and guys that better fit with Al's game.

I strongly disagree that he handled Lance poorly, but I've already had that discussion enough.

Al Kidd-Walker · Post #1675 » by **Al Kidd-Walker** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:19 am

Its not his fault guys, how was he supposed to know that the only 3 point shooter Cho was going to provide him with on this roster was Al Jefferson?

BeesWax · Post #1676 » by **BeesWax** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:56 am

Clifford is awful. This team should have made the playoffs with ease but he has no clue what he is doing. He really does not understand how to develop an offense and just tries to run the same stuff no matter who is on the court. I think he will be back next season but it will set our team back if he is.

Hornet Mania · Post #1677 » by **Hornet Mania** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:32 pm

Cliff makes way too many bone-headed mistakes that go beyond roster problems to blame it all (or mostly) on the players at his disposal. A lack of alternatives didn't make us run four straight plays for Maxiell at one point last night, or explain why Max gets all those minutes over Vonleh in the first place. Al shouldn't even be on the floor in a "3pts or go home" situation, Washington got to play 4 on 5 because of our own stupidity.

I'm not saying our roster is the envy of the league, but we don't even maximize the meager resources we have. There is no rhyme or reason to anything Cliff does. Lance actually started looking half-decent the last couple weeks, so here comes Hairston out of the blue. Never mind that Hairston was nailed to the bench for the two months before that where Lance played like total garbage. To be fair, Hairston played very well...which sort of makes Cliff look even worse for never giving him a shot for months. Then Taylor, not PJ, gets thrust into the pressure-cooker after not seeing any time all night and unsurprisingly blows a defensive assignment and very nearly clanks two FTs (thank god he got a hiiiiiiigh bounce on that first one). We go 2OTs without any substitutions whatsoever, even when there were some easy offense/defense subbing opportunities when the timeouts were flying at the end of those periods. I probably wouldn't have even noticed our lack of subs, except for the final play, but for the fact Cliff never subs in OTs ever. I am about 99% sure we would play 5OTs with no subs if that's what it took. Our roster is mediocre but Cliff can't even match that level of competence. It's a problem.

I'm bummed to know we're gonna end up watching Justise Winslow ceding minutes to a totally ineffective Lance next year, or Kaminsky taking the Maxiell role getting owned by our opponent's front lines while Vonleh continues to rot, and we'll be having the same conversation about how Cliff has nothing to work with while living off the reputation he earned from those heady days he led us to a 43-39 record.

W_HAMILTON · Post #1678 » by **W_HAMILTON** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:05 pm

Hornet Mania wrote:There is no rhyme or reason to anything Cliff does. Lance actually started looking half-decent the last couple weeks, so here comes Hairston out of the blue.

When he actually makes them, even his offensive/defensive subs make no sense. At the end of the 4th, the play-by-play went like this:

- Jefferson on the court
- Wizards ball, they take a time out
- Jefferson stays on the court during a defensive possession
- Butler hit that three
- Taylor misses that FT
- Wizards ball, they take a time out
- Biyombo subs in for Jefferson defensively

??? How does that make any sense? If you are going to sub Jefferson out for defensive purposes, why not sub him out the first go around? Like you said, there is no rhyme or reason to anything the guy does.

I just can't stand the guy. Please let his ineptitude get him fired sooner rather than later. That's the only bright spot for me if we miss the playoffs: I hope to god it means this guy gets axed. Probably not, but I'm looking forward more to that happening than adding some no-name rookie that Clifford isn't going to play anyway.

Post #1679 » by **yosemiteben** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:16 pm

I think it's kind of amusing that folks criticize Cliff for end game rotations, then criticize him for plugging in Taylor for Mo in an end game situation on defense.

And good lord am I tired of the Cliff doesn't play rookies narrative. We've had three first round picks since Cliff arrived. Cody clearly didn't have this issue and PJ had a legit shot at a spot in the rotation and got semi-regular minutes at one point but really wasted it with some terrible decision making on and off the court. Scouts said Vonleh was not ready and would take a couple years before he really understood how to play.

Draft someone that is more ready and they'll play.

Hornet Mania · Post #1680 » by **Hornet Mania** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:46 pm

Subbing Biz, a defensive/rebounding specialist, in for Al, an offensive specialist/awful defender, on a defensive possession is a totally obvious tactical move. Subbing Taylor, a guy who did not play a single second up to that point in that game(unless I missed it) who is also arguably not a superior defender to Lance or Hairston (who did play earlier), in addition to being a 55% FT shooter the last two seasons (in a situation where FTs are imminent, make or miss) is just mind-numbingly stupid. No one would be irked if we plugged in any other wing for Mo, the Mo/Kemba back court is obviously not great for defensive purposes, but Cliff put an ice-cold Taylor in an awful situation and unfortunately he couldn't overcome.

Vonleh is at least as effective as Maxiell, I feel like that's inarguable especially against bigger lineups like Chicago. At minimum, even if you believe Maxiell is better for us now, you would have to concede nothing in the limited stints Vonleh has been allowed to play suggests he is worse. Maybe a larger sample would bear that out and show Clifford was right all along, but I doubt it. Scouts may have said Vonleh wasn't yet ready to play big minutes in the league, but I bet if you asked those same guys "Yeah, but what if it had to be him or Jason Maxiell?" they'd probably just chuckle and shrug "I guess, but I feel like you're just making up a ridiculous scenario to favor the kid. No NBA team would give Maxiell minutes these days, come on."