#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

[catch20two]

What team doesn't do high ballscreens for their scoring guard and feed their big man in the post that got post moves?

[DY_nasty]

What team doesn't do high ballscreens for their scoring guard and feed their big man in the post that got post moves?

That's not the problem at all. Its how we get to them - and how we literally do nothing else on the other side of the floor while setting it up.

[LofJ]

Are we tanking now? I feel like if we were actually trying to win we'd be playing Zeller and MKG. That said it's been nice to see Vonleh get some playing time. Regardless, I hope we make moves this offseason. Starting with finding a new associate head coach to improve our offense and then moving on from Al whether he opts in or not. Ideally, I'd like us to hire someone with the potential to be a head coach in case Clifford fails to improve his performance next year. Those are the two things I most want to see happen in the offseason.

[catch20two]

Are we tanking now? I feel like if we were actually trying to win we'd be playing Zeller and MKG. That said it's been nice to see Vonleh get some playing time. Regardless, I hope we make moves this offseason. Starting with finding a new associate head coach to improve our offense and then moving on from Al whether he opts in or not. Ideally, I'd like us to hire someone with the potential to be a head coach in case Clifford fails to improve his performance next year. Those are the two things I most want to see happen in the offseason.

I don't think we're tanking but we took the foot off the pedal once we realized the engine was overheating if that makes sense. Now we're at the side of the road with white smoke fuming in the air with everyone else riding by us like "damn they thought they were going somewhere".

[Hornet Mania]

Yeah, I think it's safe to say we aren't tanking. Zeller and MKG are legitimately hurt, or so it seems, and I imagine Vonleh only got extended minutes yesterday because it the second night of a back to back and we've lost our entire starting frontcourt. Team looked the same as ever, guys hero-balling towards the end of the game trying to win, we just suck without MKG/Zeller/Al. The injury gods are commanding our tank, if anything.

[gipper08]

Kemba must really love Clifford for him to go out there and defend his coach.

And thats why he won't be fired. The players adore him. For whatever reason it might be.

because Clifford is the perfect coach for Walker/AL/Henderson who need the same cookie cutter mold nightly in a controlled setting...(while ruining or limiting Zeller/MKG/Vonleh who would thrive on a fast pace offense with more options)

"easy" baskets for Clifford is really risk. "easy" baskets for AL/Kemba/Henderson is not the same as the historical norm for the league.

[BeesWax]

Kemba must really love Clifford for him to go out there and defend his coach.

And thats why he won't be fired. The players adore him. For whatever reason it might be.

because Clifford is the perfect coach for Walker/AL/Henderson who need the same cookie cutter mold nightly in a controlled setting...(while ruining or limiting Zeller/MKG/Vonleh who would thrive on a fast pace offense with more options)

"easy" baskets for Clifford is really risk. "easy" baskets for AL/Kemba/Henderson is not the same as the historical norm for the league.

He is not the right coach for Kemba. Kemba put up better numbers under Dunlap. His players may like him but the only guy who excels under his offensive guidance is Al. The rest of the team would be best with someone new.

[ball teacher]

And thats why he won't be fired. The players adore him. For whatever reason it might be.

because Clifford is the perfect coach for Walker/AL/Henderson who need the same cookie cutter mold nightly in a controlled setting...(while ruining or limiting Zeller/MKG/Vonleh who would thrive on a fast pace offense with more options)

"easy" baskets for Clifford is really risk. "easy" baskets for AL/Kemba/Henderson is not the same as the historical norm for the league.

He is not the right coach for Kemba. Kemba put up better numbers under Dunlap. His players may like him but the only guy who excels under his offensive guidance is Al. The rest of the team would be best with someone new.

I think Kemba's numbers under Dunlap were a result of him being the first and second scoring option with a whole system designed for Kemba. This is also why I believe that with that being the case, and Kemba still not putting up all star numbers, shows he isn't a true first option for a good playoff team. And also, we had no post game wahtsoever with Dunlap, so basically it was a spread out offense where Kemba had access to freestyle from anywhere on the court to get a open shot off the pick. He has to be able to score with a balanced offense that may not have the wideout spacing he had under Dunlap.

Kemba is a streaky scorer, but he cant carry a team like Harden or Westbrook from the guard position. He would be a good 3rd or 4th option, or a 6th man off the bench. Truth be told, Kemba really has a hard time getting shots vs most opposing starting PG's without a pick, and that says alot about his scoring ability. Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Irving, these guys don't NEED picks, they may use them, but as catch20 mentioned earlier, this is just the new (weaker) style of play that every team is copying and using, some, more than the others. We have the pick for Kemba or the post for Al and that's basically our offense, everything else is penetrate, kick out out and shoot.

Kemba and Al have no reason to complain about Cliff, he gives them heavy minutes, he runs the offense around them, he never criticizes them openly, they should be his biggest supporters. But with us not making the playoffs (possibly), especially with teams like Indy and Brooklyn ahead of us, knowing the injuries they also had, is really unacceptable for us to be at our position in the weak eastern conference.

[BeesWax]

because Clifford is the perfect coach for Walker/AL/Henderson who need the same cookie cutter mold nightly in a controlled setting...(while ruining or limiting Zeller/MKG/Vonleh who would thrive on a fast pace offense with more options)

"easy" baskets for Clifford is really risk. "easy" baskets for AL/Kemba/Henderson is not the same as the historical norm for the league.

He is not the right coach for Kemba. Kemba put up better numbers under Dunlap. His players may like him but the only guy who excels under his offensive guidance is Al. The rest of the team would be best with someone new.

I think Kemba's numbers under Dunlap were a result of him being the first and second scoring option with a whole system designed for Kemba. This is also why I believe that with that being the case, and Kemba still not putting up all star numbers, shows he isn't a true first option for a good playoff team. And also, we had no post game wahtsoever with Dunlap, so basically it was a spread out offense where Kemba had access to freestyle from anywhere on the court to get a open shot off the pick. He has to be able to score with a balanced offense that may not have the wideout spacing he had under Dunlap.

Kemba is a streaky scorer, but he cant carry a team like Harden or Westbrook from the guard position. He would be a good 3rd or 4th option, or a 6th man off the bench. Truth be told, Kemba really has a hard time getting shots vs most opposing starting PG's without a pick, and that says alot about his scoring ability. Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Irving, these guys don't NEED picks, they may use them, but as catch20 mentioned earlier, this is just the new (weaker) style of play that every team is copying and using, some, more than the others. We have the pick for Kemba or the post for Al and that's basically our offense, everything else is penetrate, kick out out and shoot.

Kemba and Al have no reason to complain about Cliff, he gives them heavy minutes, he runs the offense around them, he never criticizes them openly, they should be his biggest supporters. But with us not making the playoffs (possibly), especially with teams like Indy and Brooklyn ahead of us, knowing the injuries they also had, is really unacceptable for us to be at our position in the weak eastern conference.

I don't argue he gets free reign. My argument is it is still not an offense suited to his skills. When Al went down and we moved the ball more and had multiple good screeners on the floor he played better. Curry does need picks but is able to free lance a little more due to spacing. He is normally playing with multiple scoring threats from the perimeter. Curry would struggle to finish inside if he was constantly paired with a big who cannot leave the paint. Curry is a very good player and much better shooter than Kemba but also plays in an offense that is much better too. Our lane is clogged making it hard for a smaller guard like Kemba to score at the rim and our center is afraid to make contact on a screen and is to slow to roll. Kemba may not complain but this offense is far from made for him. He did better under Dunlap because the offense was more open and not so stagnant.

[ball teacher]

He is not the right coach for Kemba. Kemba put up better numbers under Dunlap. His players may like him but the only guy who excels under his offensive guidance is Al. The rest of the team would be best with someone new.

I think Kemba's numbers under Dunlap were a result of him being the first and second scoring option with a whole system designed for Kemba. This is also why I believe that with that being the case, and Kemba still not putting up all star numbers, shows he isn't a true first option for a good playoff team. And also, we had no post game wahtsoever with Dunlap, so basically it was a spread out offense where Kemba had access to freestyle from anywhere on the court to get a open shot off the pick. He has to be able to score with a balanced offense that may not have the wideout spacing he had under Dunlap.

Kemba is a streaky scorer, but he cant carry a team like Harden or Westbrook from the guard position. He would be a good 3rd or 4th option, or a 6th man off the bench. Truth be told, Kemba really has a hard time getting shots vs most opposing starting PG's without a pick, and that says alot about his scoring ability. Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Irving, these guys don't NEED picks, they may use them, but as catch20 mentioned earlier, this is just the new (weaker) style of play that every team is copying and using, some, more than the others. We have the pick for Kemba or the post for Al and that's basically our offense, everything else is penetrate, kick out out and shoot.

Kemba and Al have no reason to complain about Cliff, he gives them heavy minutes, he runs the offense around them, he never criticizes them openly, they should be his biggest supporters. But with us not making the playoffs (possibly), especially with teams like Indy and Brooklyn ahead of us, knowing the injuries they also had, is really unacceptable for us to be at our position in the weak eastern conference.

I don't argue he gets free reign. My argument is it is still not an offense suited to his skills. When Al went down and we moved the ball more and had multiple good screeners on the floor he played better. Curry does need picks but is able to free lance a little more due to spacing. He is normally playing with multiple scoring threats from the perimeter. Curry would struggle to finish inside if he was constantly paired with a big who cannot leave the paint. Curry is a very good player and much better shooter than Kemba but also plays in an offense that is much better too. Our lane is clogged making it hard for a smaller guard like Kemba to score at the rim and our center is afraid to make contact on a screen and is to slow to roll. Kemba may not complain but this offense is far from made for him. He did better under Dunlap because the offense was more open and not so stagnant.

JDM, is it safe to say that Kemba should be put on the hot seat since he is a guard who struggles if the offense isnt one that is conducive to his playing style? Remember, Dunlap ran that system designed around Kemba, specifically to help his numbers, per Dunlap's comments in a article Rick Bonnell wrote. I personally dont want to see a offense where we rely on Kemba to be a main scorer, he can get on fire, but he's too streaky, and those games where Kemba does get hot, many times he really tends to forget his teamates cause he's in full chuck mode.

An example to me was the game 4 playoff game last season where we played against Miami. I know some will be please by Kemba's play, but to me he played desperate, he wasn't playing with his team making them better, he just went for his and the team never really got going cause of it. I think Kemba and Dunlap both should have one more season to really show and prove. I want to see Kemba get about 16-18 ppg shooting around mid 40 percent with about 7 assists per. There is no reason a speedy little PG like Kemba can't cause havoc getting players wide open easy looks. This is why I always said Kemba should pattern his game after Nash, they both have the keys to a freestyling offense, both are very quick, only difference is Nash is the better shooter from the floor.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Nash was also a far better floor general than Kemba has ever shown. Nash is well known for being able to see passing lanes that weren't obvious to other PGs. His game was built around getting his own shot to draw the attention of opposing defenses and then open up opportunities for his teammates. The issue I see with Kemba is that once he starts looking for his shot it's like he can't turn that off. While the Nash idea is a good one, I'm not sure that it would actually be a good way for Kemba to try to go. If it worked it would be great, but it also potentially plays to his weaknesses too much.

Kyrie Irving & Lebron might be a better model for Kemba IMHO. We've seen a version of that with McBob that worked. I think that it would be better in the long run to let Kemba be who he is and pair him with someone who can help do the things that he isn't the best at.

[BeesWax]

JDM, is it safe to say that Kemba should be put on the hot seat since he is a guard who struggles if the offense isnt one that is conducive to his playing style? Remember, Dunlap ran that system designed around Kemba, specifically to help his numbers, per Dunlap's comments in a article Rick Bonnell wrote. I personally dont want to see a offense where we rely on Kemba to be a main scorer, he can get on fire, but he's too streaky, and those games where Kemba does get hot, many times he really tends to forget his teamates cause he's in full chuck mode.

An example to me was the game 4 playoff game last season where we played against Miami. I know some will be please by Kemba's play, but to me he played desperate, he wasn't playing with his team making them better, he just went for his and the team never really got going cause of it. I think Kemba and Dunlap both should have one more season to really show and prove. I want to see Kemba get about 16-18 ppg shooting around mid 40 percent with about 7 assists per. There is no reason a speedy little PG like Kemba can't cause havoc getting players wide open easy looks. This is why I always said Kemba should pattern his game after Nash, they both have the keys to a freestyling offense, both are very quick, only difference is Nash is the better shooter from the floor.

Can you not say the bold comment about anyone other than a select few players in the NBA. I mean look at how many guys fall apart when they leave systems because they do not fit into the next one as well as they did the last. I think Kemba goes into chuck mode sometimes because if he is not hot we can't win. We are so reliant on him to score at this point he has to be hot or chuck until he gets hot. I think Kemba would be happy to be a 3rd or even 4th scorer on this team. He is great at controlling a game and not turning the ball over. What we need now is a scorer to put at the SG spot and for Zeller/Vonleh/MKG to step up and become a consistent threat to score. Hopefully if this happens we will get to regularly see the Kemba that scores about 15-18 and dishes out 6-8 assist with 1-2 turnovers.

I disagree with you on the playoffs last season. It was not until the last game when we were about to get swept that Kemba went hero mode. The rest of the time he played within the system and still put up solid numbers. I would love for Kemba to get more assist and shoot a higher percentage. There are a lot of PGs people would love to have here that likely don't put up very good stats because of the team and offense.

[yosemiteben]

I think Kemba goes into chuck mode sometimes because if he is not hot we can't win.

We were 12 - 8 while he was out with injuries. I know sometimes we throw those stats around without context, but it does prove that we can win without him being a primary scorer.

[BeesWax]

I think Kemba goes into chuck mode sometimes because if he is not hot we can't win.

We were 12 - 8 while he was out with injuries. I know sometimes we throw those stats around without context, but it does prove that we can win without him being a primary scorer.

Also prior to Mo getting here we lost every game we played without him where the other team was able to score 90 points. Not some or a few but all of them. The worst team in the league in ppg is Philly at 91.6 right now. So in order to win without Kemba we had to hold teams below what the worst team in the league averages scoring. Now that we have Mo who can also fill it up and had to from the PG position we had a better chance to win a higher point game. So yes right now if we don't get about 18 out of the PG spot we are very very likely to lose.

[yosemiteben]

I think Kemba goes into chuck mode sometimes because if he is not hot we can't win.

We were 12 - 8 while he was out with injuries. I know sometimes we throw those stats around without context, but it does prove that we can win without him being a primary scorer.

Also prior to Mo getting here we lost every game we played without him where the other team was able to score 90 points. Not some or a few but all of them. The worst team in the league in ppg is Philly at 91.6 right now. So in order to win without Kemba we had to hold teams below what the worst team in the league averages scoring. Now that we have Mo who can also fill it up and had to from the PG position we had a better chance to win a higher point game. So yes right now if we don't get about 18 out of the PG spot we are very very likely to lose.

That's a really twisted way to look at it. We scored 105 on Minny, 104 on Denver, 94 and 92 against WAS, 102 against IND. It's not like we weren't able to score above 90 ourselves. It's also helpful that we are pretty significantly better on defense without Kemba - he's net +5.1 per 100 possessions, only one point better than Al and second worst on the team.

I stand by the argument that Kemba scoring in high volumes isn't absolutely necessary for us to win, and it's certainly not so vital that we should encourage his chucking when his shot isn't falling.

[BeesWax]

We were 12 - 8 while he was out with injuries. I know sometimes we throw those stats around without context, but it does prove that we can win without him being a primary scorer.

Also prior to Mo getting here we lost every game we played without him where the other team was able to score 90 points. Not some or a few but all of them. The worst team in the league in ppg is Philly at 91.6 right now. So in order to win without Kemba we had to hold teams below what the worst team in the league averages scoring. Now that we have Mo who can also fill it up and had to from the PG position we had a better chance to win a higher point game. So yes right now if we don't get about 18 out of the PG spot we are very very likely to lose.

That's a really twisted way to look at it. We scored 105 on Minny, 104 on Denver, 94 and 92 against WAS, 102 against IND. It's not like we weren't able to score above 90 ourselves. It's also helpful that we are pretty significantly better on defense without Kemba - he's net +5.1 per 100 possessions, only one point better than Al and second worst on the team.

I stand by the argument that Kemba scoring in high volumes isn't absolutely necessary for us to win, and it's certainly not so vital that we should encourage his chucking when his shot isn't falling.

Pre-Mo every loss but one we scored 90 or below which goes right along with it. In the three high scoring games you mentioned Roberts scored 19, 16 and then one stinker at 0 where we doubled up Denver in the first half 62-30. Our PG position has been very vital to us winning this year. Without good scoring from there we have not fared well. I don't like that it has been this way but it has. Some of it is Kemba and some of it is the system we run. Hopefully both improve this summer.

[yosemiteben]

Bonnell writes a piece containing literally no new information. He's acting like he's breaking news that we heard from Stein back in December.

[UNCNYC]

sad thing we have clifford as a coach. because of his lack of playing Vonleh we cant really gamble on Frank Kaminsky who I would love to draft if possible. Thats what making not playing your rooks a bone head move smh

[UNCNYC]

Then he tells Lance that he doesn't do well with any unit. Sits him a few games only then gives him 20 minutes. I could understand if he had sat him a good amount of games

[Braggins]

Keeping Clifford is basically going all in on the worst version of Van Gundy ball possible. Even Van Gundy ball in its best form is kind of questionable, so I have no idea why we would want to go all in on Clifford's version. Is this really want anyone wants?