Barbeque Chicken: The Cody Zeller Thread - Pt 2

[JDR720]

Nah, Biz is better than Zeller. Biz's only major downfall is playing behind Al.

Zeller's only major downfall is playing behind McRoberts

[Eoghan]

Nah, Biz is better than Zeller. Biz's only major downfall is playing behind Al.

Zeller's only major downfall is playing behind McRoberts

Zeller gets paid more than McRoberts, think about that for a second.

[yosemiteben]

Nah, Biz is better than Zeller. Biz's only major downfall is playing behind Al.

Better at what?

IMO, Biz is the better post defender and rebounder. Zeller is the better offensive player and marginally better perimeter defender.

[Eoghan]

Nah, Biz is better than Zeller. Biz's only major downfall is playing behind Al.

Better at what?

IMO, Biz is the better post defender and rebounder. Zeller is the better offensive player and marginally better perimeter defender.

His jumpshot looks better, his post moves exist, he sets better screens, and he's a better post and help defender and rebounder. Zeller has just found a niche of being a scrappy, energy big. I'm not knocking him for that, it's way better than the niche of worst stretch 4 of all time he was fulfilling but it's not like he's turned a major corner.

CZ is basically anti-Jefferson in that he has a high motor, is very athletic and can fight for contested rebounds. But he's still producing meagerly for a top 5 pick regardless of draft strength. But it works b/c Al and Kemba do all the producing so CZ is free to suck less and not be a negative thanks to his decent IQ and okay defense. He's providing a needed role to the team like MKG and Biz are, so why prop CZ up by dissing the others?

[yosemiteben]

Before I respond, serious question - do you honestly believe every bit of that or is this devil's advocate time again for you?

[catch20two]

I love what Zeller has been doing for us but I think Biz could be just as productive if he got 20-25 minutes a night instead of 5-10 minutes. I'm not trying to knock either player but we need to stop acting like Biz isn't a effective young player in his own right. They both are solid young bigs.

[Eoghan]

Before I respond, serious question - do you honestly believe every bit of that or is this devil's advocate time again for you?

Yes, I honestly believe that. Zeller's shot has a serious flaw in that he shoots it beside his head. He doesn't line up his shot with what he aims with, his eyes. He basically shoots with crooked sights. He looks fine in practices b/c he'll miss the first one but make an adjustment and start draining them but games don't work that way, every shot is its own unique situation. You don't get to shoot from the same spot on the floor one after another in a game. Biz could be a way better shooter than Zeller sooner, he just needs a ton of reps.

Biz's post game is more advanced also mostly b/c his size is much better. Even though Zeller has more skill/better footwork, it's rendered useless b/c he's too weak to fight for post position. Both can clean up misses with nice dunks; Biz can shoot a hook with either hand but I've yet to see Zeller do something besides get past his man and flail an awkward shot at the rim. Zeller does have an advantage in that when he throws up an awkward shot it's assumed by the refs that he got fouled whereas when Biz throws up an awkward shot it's assumed it's b/c he's African.

[fatlever]

@BD check the Off-topic thread.

[fatlever]

regarding biyombo's jumpers - even though biz has really good form on his jumper, i have to wonder if the lack of touch in his hands will prevent him from ever being a decent outside shooter. bad hand-eye coordination and bad touch with your hands and fingers probably trumps good form when it comes to shooting.

agreed about zeller's ear release though. not ideal.

[yosemiteben]

His jumpshot looks better...

(1) On what basis do you say that? Because according to this, he's shot like 17 all season (and made only 6).
(2) Ask Harrison Barnes how much having a solid form adds to your FG%.

...his post moves exist...

I will concede that he has stronger post moves, but by no means is Biz a consistent low post scoring threat. I trust Cody to put points on the board in the post more than Biz, largely due to his knack for picking up fouls and finishing at the FT line. Also Cody can actually get into the lane off the dribble, which is something that is not a part of Biz's game.

...he sets better screens...

Not sure I agree too much with this, and by contrast I think Zeller is much more effective in PnR situations.

...and he's a better post and help defender and rebounder.

I agree with this as well.

He's providing a needed role to the team like MKG and Biz are, so why prop CZ up by dissing the others?

I echo your sentiment that it doesn't make sense to knock our guys so our opinions about other players are vindicated, but I also think you're being disingenuous if you think identifying some positive aspects of Z's game is just propping him up. I think each of Biz, MKG and Zeller all are positive contributors who are continuing to develop, and agree that it doesn't make sense to be overly critical of any of them given the limited role they are all tasked with.

Biz's post game is more advanced also mostly b/c his size is much better.

Definitely agree with this. He doesn't have Zeller's quickness or craftiness, but he is stronger and longer and hopefully continues to work on his touch around the rim. Jefferson needs to teach Biz that quick one handed floater in the lane - Biz would be deadly with a move like that.

Biz can shoot a hook with either hand but I've yet to see Zeller do something besides get past his man and flail an awkward shot at the rim. Zeller does have an advantage in that when he throws up an awkward shot it's assumed by the refs that he got fouled whereas when Biz throws up an awkward shot it's assumed it's b/c he's African.

Your bizarre charge of racism notwithstanding, I don't understand why you portray Zeller's ability to get by his man, attack the rim and pick up fouls as a negative.

[yosemiteben]

I just wanted to add that if you click that link to Biz's shot chart and click on one of the areas, a window pops up with separate video links to each of the shots by that player from that area. That is an unbelievably cool feature. Well done NBA.

[JDR720]

I just wanted to add that if you click that link to Biz's shot chart and click on one of the areas, a window pops up with separate video links to each of the shots by that player from that area. That is an unbelievably cool feature. Well done NBA.

I didn't know about that very cool

[mrknowitall215]

Not that I'm just noticing, but reiterating, Biyombo make that midrange jump shot from 8-16 feet out look effortless. I would like to see him attempt more of them and even extend his range, because the mechanics on his shot has a smooth stroke within the fundamentals

[yosemiteben]

Not that I'm just noticing, but reiterating, Biyombo make that midrange jump shot from 8-16 feet out look effortless. I would like to see him attempt more of them and even extend his range, because the mechanics on his shot has a smooth stroke within the fundamentals

I mean, not to be redundant, but he's 6-17 this season, and if you stretch that out to his career he is 27 - 111 (24.3%) on shots outside the paint. I know he is still young and I would love for him to build a midrange jump shot into his game, but clearly his form is not leading to a respectable shooting percentage.

[mrknowitall215]

Not that I'm just noticing, but reiterating, Biyombo make that midrange jump shot from 8-16 feet out look effortless. I would like to see him attempt more of them and even extend his range, because the mechanics on his shot has a smooth stroke within the fundamentals

I mean, not to be redundant, but he's 6-17 this season, and if you stretch that out to his career he is 27 - 111 (24.3%) on shots outside the paint. I know he is still young and I would love for him to build a midrange jump shot into his game, but clearly his form is not leading to a respectable shooting percentage.

Biyombo is actually 5-for-12 (41.7%) outside of the paint for the season. NBA.com's shot chart accounts for shots into 8 feet from the rim which would count as 'in the paint'. Vorped is a better site for shot charts to use if you're referring to in or out the paint

[yosemiteben]

(1) Thanks for informing me about Vorped, that is a great resource.

(2) You are correct, and I shouldn't have used "in the paint." I actually like NBA's chart better because I'm more interested in distance from the basket, and it seems silly when discussing mid-range shooting to distinguish between an elbow jumper that is just inside the FT line and one that is six inches farther out, especially when that inside the paint elbow jumper is treated the same as a dunk for statistical purposes.

[BeesWax]

(1) Thanks for informing me about Vorped, that is a great resource.

(2) You are correct, and I shouldn't have used "in the paint." I actually like NBA's chart better because I'm more interested in distance from the basket, and it seems silly when discussing mid-range shooting to distinguish between an elbow jumper that is just inside the FT line and one that is six inches farther out, especially when that inside the paint elbow jumper is treated the same as a dunk for statistical purposes.

2 is always true no matter how you look at things. There has to be some cut off point and that painted area is a solid one. There are always going to be shots from inches away that count different. It is like a 10 footer from the wing vs from straight on. Those are different shots to hit and yet would count the same.

[yosemiteben]

I guess that's fair, but comparing shots based on actual distances from the basket seems a lot more consistent to me, especially when the whole point of the discussion is around midrange shots. An eight footer and a dunk are a lot more different than a ten footer from the left and a ten footer from the right.

[Eoghan]

His jumpshot looks better...

(1) On what basis do you say that? Because according to this, he's shot like 17 all season (and made only 6).
(2) Ask Harrison Barnes how much having a solid form adds to your FG%.

It just looks better, like how Kate Upton looks better than that Big Bang chick. Biz rarely shoots jumpers (or shoots period) at this stage of his career so it's really too small of a sample size to really discuss it further.

...he sets better screens...

Not sure I agree too much with this, and by contrast I think Zeller is much more effective in PnR situations.

Zeller sets good screens, and is getting away from the rookie mistakes of setting moving screens, but Bismack's screen is like a lunar eclipse.

Biz can shoot a hook with either hand but I've yet to see Zeller do something besides get past his man and flail an awkward shot at the rim. Zeller does have an advantage in that when he throws up an awkward shot it's assumed by the refs that he got fouled whereas when Biz throws up an awkward shot it's assumed it's b/c he's African.

Your bizarre charge of racism notwithstanding, I don't understand why you portray Zeller's ability to get by his man, attack the rim and pick up fouls as a negative.

I don't know if it's racist or not but refs seem to have a hate-on for Biz and really scrutinize everything he does. He gets fouled like crazy in the paint but it's rarely called. Probably why he does Crossfit so much, otherwise he'd be on the injured list all the time. Zeller on the other hand fortunately has Hansbrough's knack for looking like he's being fouled all the time and the refs reward him solidly for it.

[BeesWax]

I guess that's fair, but comparing shots based on actual distances from the basket seems a lot more consistent to me, especially when the whole point of the discussion is around midrange shots. An eight footer and a dunk are a lot more different than a ten footer from the left and a ten footer from the right.

I agree with you here. But also looking at location of shots should be important. There is not a good way to monitor this completely so I am not sure we would all ever agree.