I'm BACKKKKKKKK!!: The Steve Clifford Thread

[BigSlam]

I've been trying to find how many times a head coach has left and returned to a team to be the head coach again - but can't find anything that might tell me.

Anyone know?

Paul Silas springs to mind of course. Who else has done it?

[Stun704]

The issues I have with this are many, but beyond anything else It's clear this decision was a panic move.

He wasn't interviewed as a candidate. If anyone said we'd rehire Clifford when we fired JB they'd be laughed out of existence. This is literally an Onion headline IRL.

So, why'd we panic and hire Clifford? We hired Clifford because MJ wanted him over MDA and Stotts. Or Vogel or Snyder. If Mitch viewed him as a candidate, he would've interviewed him along with all the others. But he didn't. Because Clifford, until a day or two ago, wasn't a candidate.

Is Cliffords defense and discipline, in theory, a good fit with this team? Yes. We all agree we need better defense and better discipline. In a vacuum, he is probably a better coach than JB too. But why Cliff.....? Why not interview Vogel? Why not give Sweeney a go? They're defensive coaches who are probably better than JB, one of them recently won a title. So why didn't we? Because MJ wants a coach and he wants one now. And we already know Clifford. This is a match made out of convenience. We need a coach. Clifford needs a job. Match made in Heaven.

Will we win 45-50 games next year? More than likely. We'll probably have a top 10 offense, due to the sheer amount of offensive talent, and Clifford will patchwork the defense so we'll be at least respectable. But it isn't worth it. Because it's embarrassing. This isn't a move for the future. This is a "win-now" move on a team full of expendable veterans that we can't expend because their contracts are bad or nobody wants them, a 20yr old star as our best player, a few developmental youth and Miles Bridges soon to be on a max contract. And when we win 45-50 games next year. It'll be because of those players, not Clifford. Assuming he actually plays them.

So, in addition to this being a panic move. It's also lazy, shortsighted and the optics are beyond embarrassing. They gave 0 thought to the fan reaction to this. This is a kick right in the balls. The management of this team embarrassed us all today, regardless of whether or not you think Clifford Pt.2 will work or not. Odds are, we'll fire him again in a couple years. Maybe we'll rehire Borrego next time for the rebuild. He developed some good talent the first time around after all.

I don’t understand this logic of A) Clifford not developing talent and B) Clifford being a treadmill coach.

A) A lot of players got better playing under Clifford then fell off a cliff after leaving him. I.E Jeremy Lin, Courtney Lee, Big AL, Jeremy Lamb, Zeller, Frank, MKG.

B) Clifford led teams who’s only quality starter was Kemba to the playoffs. He’s never had truly talented teams

[Diop]

I remember complaining about inflexible rotations, rigid lineups and little adjustment.

Let’s see how goes this time

[BigSlam]

I remember complaining about inflexible rotations, rigid lineups and little adjustment.

Let’s see how goes this time

When is that NOT said about any coach of any team?

Serious question.

[W_HAMILTON]

Worst possible choice. Treadmill coach who puts every team he leads 2-3 years away from needing to rebuild. Zero creativity on offense. Alfense was a plan from previous decades. His idea of good defense is just pack the paint. It works vs bad teams with young players who can’t shoot and that is about it.

Expect more bad personal decisions. Clifford will push for more vets on the roster. Remember when we traded a first for belinali

You bring up a good point. Weren't we pretty terrible at defending the perimeter back when Clifford was here? I remember that was one of my biggest gripes with him -- in addition to apparently being unable to draw up inbounds plays in crucial situations and seemingly non-existent end-of-game plays -- because the league was moving towards a more perimeter-oriented offense and our defense seemed to always leave perimeter guys open.

[GelbeWand09]

My biggest concern with development is the PF/C position.

In Orlando, he played Bamba 15mpg. Meanwhile, he played MCW and Bacon 25mpg. Two players that are indisputably terrible. He plays favorites.

Bismack landed in his doghouse for Maxiell. Didn't play Bamba. Didn't like playing MKG. He doesn't like developmental players. I have little to no hope for Kai, Thor and Williams.

As a Magic fan I wasn't a Clifford fan at all but I
wouldn't worry about Williams. He is a Cliff guy. When a young player can defend and follows his principles, he plays them. Isaac played a lot from start because of his elite defense and Def. IQ. Bamba was the opposite of JI. I think Williams gonna play a lot but I worry about Bouk & Co for sure. At least you guys got no slow low post scorer this time. The day we hired him I knew my dream of getting rid of Vuc was over.

[bravor]

Cliff will have to update his offense. Al Jefferson, Vuc and Dwight aren't walking through the door. This is the first time he hasn't had a 20/10 C on the team.

I am fully expecting a Vucevic or Valanciunas trade

maybe we'll manage to get Ayton, but I know better than to hope for that

Adams is expiring. And actually, i think he would be a good fit in a Clifford offense (not saying long term, anyway Clifford is an interim coach so..).

also i expect more action for PJ at his position (the 4). And Thor might see the court more often as well.

Anyway, we will see. Clifford is a good dude, i never liked Borrego and Cliff is a decent interim coach. Without Atkinson nothing like this would have happened. Not a fan of any of the available coaches with exp (i would have checked Larranaga though, even though my fav would be a ncaa coach like Few).

ps : well nevermind, i just saw the T&T board and the kings fan proposal. As long as its not long term money with Adams (and no 1st pick going out), it could fit well enough to compete for and in the post season.

[-Ian-]

I've been trying to find how many times a head coach has left and returned to a team to be the head coach again - but can't find anything that might tell me.

Anyone know?

Paul Silas springs to mind of course. Who else has done it?

Mike Brown in Cleveland. His second stint only lasted for a year.

[Snidely FC]

I am not alright with this. I cannot abide this move

There is zero chance Lamelo and Clifford can coexist. No way this ends well for the young exciting guys

I feel like the organization took a big dump on all of our heads, the players and fans both, a gigantic middle finger

It’s like a bad joke from the universe. Brazen incompetence and sheer lunacy rolled into one

[BurrellFor3]

I just looked back at a couple seasons boxscores with the magic when Clifford was coaching, and every one I pulled up had a rotation of either 9 or 10 players playing good minutes. That seems pretty good for a guy being labeled as not having good rotations. Even Borrego used 8 most of the time and occasionally going with a 9 man rotation.

I know Mitch mentioned in an interview that he was hoping the young guys would have played more under Borrego, I wonder if MJ was on the same page as Mitch with that, because if this is a MJ hire as you guys say, we better hope he was. We need the young core to get more minutes this year…

[driveandkick]

This truly felt like our most pivotal off-season… ever? And they’ve just totally and I mean totally botched it so far.

There are far, far worse basketball coaches than Steve Clifford. But the fit with this roster feels beyond questionable.

[MasterIchiro]

The in-game management between Clifford and JB doesn't compare. JB freezes up and doesn't adapt on the fly. He's a film analyst by nature and those dudes grow accustomed to processing footage with the luxury of hours to produce a counter strategy.

[yosemiteben]

There is zero chance Lamelo and Clifford can coexist. No way this ends well for the young exciting guys

This was how I was originally thinking, but then I got to thinking about Kemba. He transformed into a legit All Star under Cliff. For all Cliff's faults, it seems like maximizing the impact of a young, talented PG is a bright spot on his resume.

[yosemiteben]

The in-game management between Clifford and JB doesn't compare. JB freezes up and doesn't adapt on the fly. He's a film analyst by nature and those dudes grow accustomed to processing footage with the luxury of hours to produce a counter strategy.

Is that really that different from Cliff though?

My recollection is that Cliff was moreso criticized for not adapting his game plan.

[Rich4114]

Woj: Steve Clifford has decided he won’t become the Charlotte Hornets’ head coach and will remain at home to make sure those damn kids stay off his lawn.

I'm not going to lie, I read the first 13 words of your post and 100% thought it was legit.

Because this is the month of just off the wall ridiculous Hornets news bytes? I thought it was real for a second too. Look at what’s happened to us now

[yosemiteben]

You bring up a good point. Weren't we pretty terrible at defending the perimeter back when Clifford was here? I remember that was one of my biggest gripes with him -- in addition to apparently being unable to draw up inbounds plays in crucial situations and seemingly non-existent end-of-game plays -- because the league was moving towards a more perimeter-oriented offense and our defense seemed to always leave perimeter guys open.

Good call, the Cliff arguments are slowly coming back to me and this is definitely something that we struggled with. I remember people saying we were sort of a gimmicky defense because we slowed the pace and absolutely controlled the defensive glass, but we were always one of the worst teams in the league at perimeter defense.

We also consistently played at a very slow pace offensively, which I recall Mitch saying was something he was looking forward to changing under JB.

I suppose it'll be interesting to see if Cliff has evolved at all in his time off.

[Rich4114]

Things I’m most worried about, after looking past how stupid this looks optically:

- This failing and us looking even worse than we do now
- The inbound plays and crunch time execution
- Pace
- Passing
- No more young guys
- Finding meddling veterans to spend valuable minutes on over our young exciting talent that needs experience
- Somehow, Michael Carter Williams

[yosemiteben]

As I was having a minor meltdown, I decided to turn to Cliff's high points and check out that 2015-16 season. Bullet points:

48 wins
purple shirt guy away from advancing in the playoffs
top 10 net rating
top 10 offensive and defensive efficiency
18th in pace (didn't realize we were ever that high)
top 10 in 3PT%
top 5 in 3PTA

That was a remarkable season

[Chapelchilla]

While I never would have expected this move (and I don't think the Hornets did either, lol) it does make some sense. We need leadership, defense, discipline and rebounding. Cliff provides those. If he has learned anything since he left that may help his weaker spots.
As far as the deals go, I think there is more to the story with follow up trades and signings. I saw that Williams is gonna be wearing 5 not 15. Know who may want that 15 jersey? The Captain would certainly help with veteran leadership and bridging the gap with Cliff. Lamelo needs a mentor not more coddling.
All that money Detroit has available and a possible itch to sign Bridges to a deal we don't want? Maybe there is a side deal to not offer a contract that is too hard for us to match or a future S/T in place (informally).
I don't mind having a pick next year and future ammo to move around via trades either though the price was a bit high.
I think winning 50 is a strong possibility next year depending on how we deal with Bridges/FA/trades/player development.

[LofJ]

The thing that concerns me the most with this hire is how it may negatively impact LaMelo. He thrived in our high pace, passing oriented offense for a reason. It's what he's good at, and he produced. It was the primary driver for our top 5 offense.

Do we really want to have better defense at the cost of Clifford neutering LaMelo's impact and tanking the offense? Our ball movement, high paced offense works and fits the players we have on the roster. I know Kupchak understands that, but does Clifford and MJ? I have doubts for sure.