#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

[BeesWax]

It's not all bad. We've been top 10 two years running. You can have all the good defensive players you want- it takes a pretty solid defensive scheme to mask Big Al's Runway.

Without MKG on the court, his defense is really just not that impressive

Let's consider context. Without MKG in November we got to have Kemba playing the worst D of his career, Al being a worse version of himself, Lance only pretending to care about playing defense, and Marvin doing ok in ISO situations but not being a real help defender.

Without MKG in the spring we got to have Kemba still playing the worst D of his career, Mo playing even worse D than Kemba, Cody hurt, and Al basically playing on one leg.

I can't get all that upset with Cliff for not maintaining an elite defense in those situations.

Does not matter when it happens losing MKG killed our defense both this year and last. Without MKG I am not sure Clifford can coach a defense. Now that being said he does have a great plan with MKG in there and it works. So it may be a combination of a great player perfectly fitting a solid scheme. I do not doubt he can coach at least a serviceable defense with other players but he can't rely so heavily on one to make it work because an injury sinks that ship.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Yosemiteben, it was his job.

Yes, there were points in time where it was more than just MKG recently, but this thing with MKG, it's not just this year.

[yosemiteben]

Yosemiteben, it was his job.

Yes, there were points in time where it was more than just MKG recently, but this thing with MKG, it's not just this year.

It's like having a team with one elite scorer with an offensive scheme designed to fit the personnel and maximize that scorer's impact such that the team has a top 5 offense. Take away that scorer and the system falls apart.

That's pretty much what it's like with MKG, especially this year.

I would be curious to see the stats of how we were defensively last season with MKG out.

[ball teacher]

Yosemiteben, it was his job.

Yes, there were points in time where it was more than just MKG recently, but this thing with MKG, it's not just this year.

It's like having a team with one elite scorer with an offensive scheme designed to fit the personnel and maximize that scorer's impact such that the team has a top 5 offense. Take away that scorer and the system falls apart.

That's pretty much what it's like with MKG, especially this year.

I would be curious to see the stats of how we were defensively last season with MKG out.

Mkg was a major piece to the team defensive presence as we all know. He was a good perimeter defender and Hendo was a good complimentary player cause Hendo is tough, physical, and he also gets on his man with good pressure. Let's not forget Zeller too though. His energy inside matched with MKG'S on the perimeter, Hendo and Kemba who also plays the passing lane like a safety getting steals and deflected passes all contributed to our defense.

The guys fed off MKG and his energy, this had zero to do with Cliff. For the most part Cho has brought in high character, good guys who play hard and they made Cliff look good, cause really, the guy isnt a very good coach. Anytime a coach clearly loses games for his team, you have a problem an this guy has done this for two years. He didnt even start playing MKG for thirty minutes until mid season when injuries forced him too, I still cant believe he got a pass with that on this board for so long.

And this maybe the wrong thread, but I think Winslow and MKG at the wings would be lethal. Winslow is a better scorer, can play Sg or Sf, both defend and run the floor, I think they'd be a perfect fit playing alongside each other.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

And this maybe the wrong thread, but I think Winslow and MKG at the wings would be lethal. Winslow is a better scorer, can play Sg or Sf, both defend and run the floor, I think they'd be a perfect fit playing alongside each other.

But would Cliff play them together?

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Honestly, and I know that I've said this several times, but I don't hate Cliff. I just don't think that he's anything more than a below average coach who happens to be a particularly bad fit for this club as a whole. He does have some things he's good at, but overall his weaknesses outweigh his strengths. I picture him in clown makeup most of the time so I don't get as mad at him when he says or does something stupid. It helps some.

[fatlever]

There is not a coach on the planet that could have a respectable defense based on a core of Kemba, Henderson, Marvin, Jefferson and Mo all getting heavy minutes, without guys like MKG and Zeller to help. Clifford lost 2 of his 3 most important defenders down the stretch (MKG, Zeller - Biz being the other) and still had to play 3 of his worst defenders big minutes (Al, Mo and Marvin). The margin for error for this team is tiny.

[DY_nasty]

There is not a coach on the planet that could have a respectable defense based on a core of Kemba, Henderson, Marvin, Jefferson and Mo all getting heavy minutes, without guys like MKG and Zeller to help. Clifford lost 2 of his 3 most important defenders down the stretch (MKG, Zeller - Biz being the other) and still had to play 3 of his worst defenders big minutes (Al, Mo and Marvin). The margin for error for this team is tiny.

Here's the thing though. For a defensive guy, he doesn't even want to play his best defenders

Let's talk about Maxiel. He has decent instincts as a shot blocker but he's not exactly a rim protector and has absolutely zero ability to cover ground as a help defender, to hedge, close out on stretch bigs, or make a guard change his angle. He's a stopgap solution at this point in his career. A decent one, but that's who he is.

This season he started over Biyombo, who was one of the best rim protectors and rebounders (another thing that Cliff should love) in the league last season. He was used to a teaching point for Zeller and was always there to come into games the moment Zeller made a mistake despite offering maybe half of what Zeller consistently brings. He nailed Noah to the pine, which simply doesn't make sense because Noah's mistakes aren't even more glaring than Maxiel's natural limitations.

Doesn't make sense. At least Larry Brown was consistent with his love for length and shotblocking. Cliff says what he wants then gets mad that it isn't what he wants.

[EwingSweatsALot]

Yosemiteben, it was his job.

Yes, there were points in time where it was more than just MKG recently, but this thing with MKG, it's not just this year.

It's like having a team with one elite scorer with an offensive scheme designed to fit the personnel and maximize that scorer's impact such that the team has a top 5 offense. Take away that scorer and the system falls apart.

That's pretty much what it's like with MKG, especially this year.

I would be curious to see the stats of how we were defensively last season with MKG out.

According to 82games per 100 possessions.

3.5 points better on defense last year with him on the court.

11 points better this year.

[yosemiteben]

Yosemiteben, it was his job.

Yes, there were points in time where it was more than just MKG recently, but this thing with MKG, it's not just this year.

It's like having a team with one elite scorer with an offensive scheme designed to fit the personnel and maximize that scorer's impact such that the team has a top 5 offense. Take away that scorer and the system falls apart.

That's pretty much what it's like with MKG, especially this year.

I would be curious to see the stats of how we were defensively last season with MKG out.

According to 82games per 100 possessions.

3.5 points better on defense last year with him on the court.

11 points better this year.

Was more interested in how our team defense dropped off when he was injured. The point seemed to be that our team couldn't play defense when MKG was injured, though maybe I misinterpreted it.

[BeesWax]

It's like having a team with one elite scorer with an offensive scheme designed to fit the personnel and maximize that scorer's impact such that the team has a top 5 offense. Take away that scorer and the system falls apart.

That's pretty much what it's like with MKG, especially this year.

I would be curious to see the stats of how we were defensively last season with MKG out.

According to 82games per 100 possessions.

3.5 points better on defense last year with him on the court.

11 points better this year.

Was more interested in how our team defense dropped off when he was injured. The point seemed to be that our team couldn't play defense when MKG was injured, though maybe I misinterpreted it.

Last year in games MKG played we gave up 96.1 ppg we went 35-27
Last year in games MKG missed we gave up 100.3 ppg we went 8-12

[Hornet Mania]

It's like having a team with one elite scorer with an offensive scheme designed to fit the personnel and maximize that scorer's impact such that the team has a top 5 offense. Take away that scorer and the system falls apart.

That's pretty much what it's like with MKG, especially this year.

I would be curious to see the stats of how we were defensively last season with MKG out.

According to 82games per 100 possessions.

3.5 points better on defense last year with him on the court.

11 points better this year.

Was more interested in how our team defense dropped off when he was injured. The point seemed to be that our team couldn't play defense when MKG was injured, though maybe I misinterpreted it.

I tried Googling a source for you, but all I could find were anecdotes about how the defense suffered when MKG was out.

http://isportsweb.com/2014/01/13/charlotte-bobcats-rough-stretch-cats-reeling/

That was the closest I could get to something substantive, it sounds like our defense did okay shortly after his injury but then tanked after Christmas right up to the point where he returned on January 14th. The article notes we gave up 100 points or more 6 times in 9 games between 12/25 and 1/13 after allowing 100 only 7 times in the first 29 contests (vast majority including MKG). I wish I could find a better source but I vaguely recall our team rating dropped into the low 20s during that specific stretch without him last year, if I find a better article later tonight I'll post it.

[Eoghan]

Injuries wouldn't have hurt our record so bad if Cliff didn't try and get blood from a stone with these #spacing lineups earlier in the season. We would have thrown away less games had we played to our strengths.

[EwingSweatsALot]

It's like having a team with one elite scorer with an offensive scheme designed to fit the personnel and maximize that scorer's impact such that the team has a top 5 offense. Take away that scorer and the system falls apart.

That's pretty much what it's like with MKG, especially this year.

I would be curious to see the stats of how we were defensively last season with MKG out.

According to 82games per 100 possessions.

3.5 points better on defense last year with him on the court.

11 points better this year.

Was more interested in how our team defense dropped off when he was injured. The point seemed to be that our team couldn't play defense when MKG was injured, though maybe I misinterpreted it.

I misunderstood what you were asking.

In 2013-14 when MKG played in a game, our opponents PTS/100 POSS was 103.9. When he registered a DNP it was 105.9. A -2 point difference.

In 2014-15 when MKG played in a game our, opponents PTS/100 POSS was 101.0. When he registered a DNP it was 110.9. A -9.9 point difference.

[James Gatz]

I think Clifford deserves another year. That's when his contract is up. I doubt we pay for two coaches at the same time anyway. I'd love to get somebody more offensive minded but I'm not hopeful.

Also does Dunlap's tenure feel like a fever dream to anybody else? All I remember where brilliant pre and post game speeches and problems with Ben Gordon.

[Eoghan]

You know what I liked about Dunlap? He did what the FO told him to do. You wouldn't have had him out here playing Maxiell and Gary Neal meaningful minutes hoping to eke out some improbable win while Vonleh collects mold. Clifford just seems to care about his resume, as most 1st time HCs are want to do. Dunlap only cared about basketball and jogging every morning.

[catch20two]

You know what I liked about Dunlap? He did what the FO told him to do. You wouldn't have had him out here playing Maxiell and Gary Neal meaningful minutes hoping to eke out some improbable win while Vonleh collects mold. Clifford just seems to care about his resume, as most 1st time HCs are want to do. Dunlap only cared about basketball and jogging every morning.

I still wonder what Dunlap's fortunes in the NBA as a head coach could've been with a non-tanking team. That team we had shoulda been honored to win that 20-something games. We had Mullens starting, Hakim Warrick starting at one point, and Matt Carroll in the rotation. Hell we even had Jeff Taylor starting for a while when some had high hopes for him. Don't even have to look back at it in hindsight to respect the win total that team got to under Dunlap. Indeed I think Dunlap was a little off but it's hard to know exactly what his motive was when he was asked to tank and focus on player development more than actual wins.

[SeanBobcats]

It would suck to fire a coach again. Just because that's become just the usual thing for us, but I think Cho will make the right move.

[DY_nasty]

You know what I liked about Dunlap? He did what the FO told him to do. You wouldn't have had him out here playing Maxiell and Gary Neal meaningful minutes hoping to eke out some improbable win while Vonleh collects mold. Clifford just seems to care about his resume, as most 1st time HCs are want to do. Dunlap only cared about basketball and jogging every morning.

I still wonder what Dunlap's fortunes in the NBA as a head coach could've been with a non-tanking team. That team we had shoulda been honored to win that 20-something games. We had Mullens starting, Hakim Warrick starting at one point, and Matt Carroll in the rotation. Hell we even had Jeff Taylor starting for a while when some had high hopes for him. Don't even have to look back at it in hindsight to respect the win total that team got to under Dunlap. Indeed I think Dunlap was a little off but it's hard to know exactly what his motive was when he was asked to tank and focus on player development more than actual wins.

I always liked Dunlap but I didn't really appreciate his madness and C-3P0nes until he was gone. I can't imagine a sane coach surviving after the dozenth time Mullens was caught on camera literally running away from his defensive responsibility.

[yosemiteben]

You know what I liked about Dunlap? He did what the FO told him to do.

You don't think the FO told Cliff to try to make the playoffs?