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#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1901 » by ball teacher » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:20 am

StitchJones wrote:I think Clifford's philosophy on offense and player development is dated. The NBA is a ball movement and spacing league now, yet Clifford is training our young guys in the art of slow down basketball where that is not even where their strengths lie. Only one player has his strengths there and that's Al who is not even part of this teams long term future. The play style of this team should be based off it's young long term talent: MKG,Kemba, Zeller, Vonleh, Lance, PJ. This team should play like the Milwaukee Bucks, not the Knicks or the Grizzlies.


The slower pace of play isn't "dated" because it's ineffective, it's "dated" cause teams have employed the new style of play thinking the game needed to be rejuvened by a style of play deemed to be more entertaining. Memphis, Chicago, San Antonio and even the Clippers are really good teams that don't press this spacing nonsense. Spacing was NEVER a issue in the NBA until teams started pushing this new style of play that results in basically a ton of 3 point shots off of fast breaks or penetration kick out passes. Our style of play should be one based off of using Al as our offensive anchor, but we should run like hell off of every rebound since we have a athletic team (minus Al). Kemba can run, Hendo can run and Jump, MKG can run, Zeller can run, Biz and Lance can all run, so I agree with you on that point.

In the offensive set though, if you look at our players, we're actually suited for half court play. MKG and Zeller can alternate between the high and low post but instead we want MKG to be a perimeter oriented jump shooter! Hendo should be running off curls and picks for his mid range shot. Al is our main post presence. Kemba can pretty much score from anywhere with his screens. All of these guys can score when put in the position to do what they do best, problem is we never put most of these guys in position to succeed, we have made most of these guys do something they aren't comfortable with. Our starting 5 collectively didnt make alot of t.o's from what I remember, the stat guys could verify this, so if we didnt make alot of turnovers and we played good defense, what was our problem? I think we did't get enough quality shots thanks to our system and lack of true playmaking/PG floor generalship.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1902 » by Eoghan » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:43 am

One big problem is that Kemba, Hendo and to some extent Al all love midrange shots from the ft line on up. Zeller occupies this area a lot too, usually aimlessly when he's not setting useful screens. I hope Hendo opts out just remove one guy from this clutter.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1903 » by Braggins » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:13 am

We basically can't run with Al on the floor. He can't stay within the pace of the game or make it back on defense when the tempo speeds and he gets fatigued super quickly, which can cause our defense to collapse. Also, the fact that Al is never a threat to run the floor also limits our potential break opportunities.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1904 » by GoBobs » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:12 am

Also Al gets a lot of the defensive rebounds because he plays close to the basket and doesn't really focus on contesting shots. When he gets the rebound he waits for the guard to come to him and get the ball rather then looking to pass it up the court.

The problem with the slow pace and Al taking most of the shots is other guys don't get a chance to get into rhythm. If Jefferson was efficient on the offensive end it might work, but he is 282nd in true shooting percentage. Biz, Zeller, Mo Williams, MKG, and Henderson were all ahead of him in TS% and all those guys would be better if we got out in transition more.

Teams that are successful playing a slow pace have good defense. When other teams make Jefferson defend the pick and roll we don't. Clifford is sticking to the idea we can build what we do around Jefferson and it doesn't have any chance to work.

This team needs to play attacking defense. We need to pressure the other team into turnovers and then turn them into points on the other end. I like Jefferson for wanting to help us take the next step. He can be an option in our attack, but everything we do can't be based around him.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1905 » by yosemiteben » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:39 pm

ball teacher wrote:Memphis, Chicago, San Antonio and even the Clippers are really good teams that don't press this spacing nonsense.

Yeah, I completely disagree. Go start a thread on the GB about how Pop doesn't emphasize spacing and see what the majority view is.

And I don't believe the stats support the narrative that we are a significantly slower than average pace team. Let's put some numbers behind that before we use it as a regular criticism.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1906 » by BeesWax » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:59 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
ball teacher wrote:Memphis, Chicago, San Antonio and even the Clippers are really good teams that don't press this spacing nonsense.

Yeah, I completely disagree. Go start a thread on the GB about how Pop doesn't emphasize spacing and see what the majority view is.

And I don't believe the stats support the narrative that we are a significantly slower than average pace team. Let's put some numbers behind that before we use it as a regular criticism.

Hollinger has us at 22 in the league in pace at 95.3 and has us scoring 97.6 points per possession. If we are going to have so few possessions we need to be a much more efficient team. We are 30 in EFG% according to that data as well. I think the point here is you cannot play in the bottom third for pace and still run an offense that gets very few good looks.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1907 » by yosemiteben » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:08 pm

jdm3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
ball teacher wrote:Memphis, Chicago, San Antonio and even the Clippers are really good teams that don't press this spacing nonsense.

Yeah, I completely disagree. Go start a thread on the GB about how Pop doesn't emphasize spacing and see what the majority view is.

And I don't believe the stats support the narrative that we are a significantly slower than average pace team. Let's put some numbers behind that before we use it as a regular criticism.

Hollinger has us at 22 in the league in pace at 95.3 and has us scoring 97.6 points per possession. If we are going to have so few possessions we need to be a much more efficient team. We are 30 in EFG% according to that data as well. I think the point here is you cannot play in the bottom third for pace and still run an offense that gets very few good looks.

The difference between our pace and MIL, who is ranked twelfth in the league, is one possession out of 100. Our pace is roughly the same as SAS, CHI, TOR, and actually higher than CLE.

To me pace isn't close to the issue. The issue, as you pointed out, is efficiency.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1908 » by ball teacher » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:43 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
ball teacher wrote:Memphis, Chicago, San Antonio and even the Clippers are really good teams that don't press this spacing nonsense.

Yeah, I completely disagree. Go start a thread on the GB about how Pop doesn't emphasize spacing and see what the majority view is.

And I don't believe the stats support the narrative that we are a significantly slower than average pace team. Let's put some numbers behind that before we use it as a regular criticism.


Spacing is a part of the game and always has been, but it hasnt ever been stressed as it is now. When coaches drew up plays they always have guys in certain parts of the floor, even in pickup games you tell your teamates if they're too close to move out so you have room to work, but now being spaced is basically the whole offense. As long as you have the PG running off a pick you have three other players standing around the perimeter and one big to rebound or get the pass after rolling to the rim depending on how the defense attacks the PG off the pick you essentially have the offense most teams run.

That's how maybe 90% of the teams use #spacing. The Spurs need spacing of course, but they have team and ball movement which makes them different from the other teams. They're comparable to the old school teams who would have a big man who would be doubled and he would kick the ball out where it would be swung to the open shooter, they needed spacing for that, but guys knew the game and how to properly play it, and they knew their roles and where to be.

Spacing now is just a code for a spread out, freestyling, penetrate and kick offense. And again, this style of play devalues the big man, the slashers, true fast break offenses, play calling and real coaching, it's essentially a pickup up style of play. I doubt that the teams now could compete with any of the top teams from the 80s and 90s. Just my opinion of course, and yes...I'm old school lol.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1909 » by BeesWax » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:00 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
jdm3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Yeah, I completely disagree. Go start a thread on the GB about how Pop doesn't emphasize spacing and see what the majority view is.

And I don't believe the stats support the narrative that we are a significantly slower than average pace team. Let's put some numbers behind that before we use it as a regular criticism.

Hollinger has us at 22 in the league in pace at 95.3 and has us scoring 97.6 points per possession. If we are going to have so few possessions we need to be a much more efficient team. We are 30 in EFG% according to that data as well. I think the point here is you cannot play in the bottom third for pace and still run an offense that gets very few good looks.

The difference between our pace and MIL, who is ranked twelfth in the league, is one possession out of 100. Our pace is roughly the same as SAS, CHI, TOR, and actually higher than CLE.

To me pace isn't close to the issue. The issue, as you pointed out, is efficiency.

The issue is if you have an inefficient team you have to pick up the pace. It is called making adjustments. You cannot be a slow inefficient poor offensive rebounding team and expect to win. So yes pace of play when grouped with all the other flaws his offense has just compounds the issue.

If you cannot design an offense that will get players good looks then you need to play fast break ball so we at least get a few high percentage shots a game.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1910 » by yosemiteben » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:20 pm

jdm3 wrote:You cannot be a slow inefficient poor offensive rebounding team and expect to win.

Well we aren't slow (unless right around league average = slow). I think our focus should be on generating more efficient offense within our current system, not just increasing pace.

Ultimately I agree it's about designing a more efficient offense.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1911 » by BeesWax » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:41 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
jdm3 wrote:You cannot be a slow inefficient poor offensive rebounding team and expect to win.

Well we aren't slow (unless right around league average = slow). I think our focus should be on generating more efficient offense within our current system, not just increasing pace.

Ultimately I agree it's about designing a more efficient offense.

22 that is bottom third. No matter how you slice it we are in the bottom third. We are one of the 10 slowest teams in the NBA. Are we close to the middle sure but we are slow. We are also just one possession shy from being bottom five if we want to talk about movement. If you know you are not a efficient offense than pick up the pace. Instead we remain a terrible offense and slow. Coaching needs to improve or we won't.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1912 » by yosemiteben » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:29 pm

Getting bored with this so I'll just say that accepting the inefficient offense and instead focusing on pace is the wrong perspective IMO. We need to focus on improving efficiency other than simply by saying increase the pace. There are slower paced teams with significantly higher efficiency than us.

I get that you think Cliff is the worst and can't design an offense. I've heard you say that on here about 1,000 times. All I'm saying is that just accepting that and then saying let's increase the pace is not an acceptable solution to me. We have to be able to generate better half court offense.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1913 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:34 pm

So lets flip the script a bit. What kind of offense would suit the players we have?

I'll agree with yosemiteben in saying that "just go faster" really isn't enough by itself.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1914 » by BeesWax » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:15 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Getting bored with this so I'll just say that accepting the inefficient offense and instead focusing on pace is the wrong perspective IMO. We need to focus on improving efficiency other than simply by saying increase the pace. There are slower paced teams with significantly higher efficiency than us.

I get that you think Cliff is the worst and can't design an offense. I've heard you say that on here about 1,000 times. All I'm saying is that just accepting that and then saying let's increase the pace is not an acceptable solution to me. We have to be able to generate better half court offense.

I don't think we should accept it but if he can't improve his offense he has to improve his pace. He makes no adjustments and I think that is his biggest problem. He needs to fix something and yes this is his fault. If this is the best offense he can create he needs to go but if he doesn't go he needs to speed up. Otherwise create a working offense that does not have us so terribly inefficient. You keep arguing he can make an offense but he never has. You say we are fine in pace but we are bottom third then you say well who cares because other teams win like that.

You are the one accepting it because most of the rest of us want a change. If he does not change something in the offense he runs we will be bad. It can be efficiency or pace for all I care as long as it is an improvement.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1915 » by BeesWax » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:20 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:So lets flip the script a bit. What kind of offense would suit the players we have?

I'll agree with yosemiteben in saying that "just go faster" really isn't enough by itself.

I honestly think he cannot create an offense that works because he does not know how. I am not sure he would have any team at the level they are at offensively. He lacks the creativity to develop anything to improve our situation.

Our best offense would be to take Al out of the game and pick up the speed. Use guys who can set picks to set them and do not rely on hero ball. Lots of passing and ball movement with very little standing and watching. If you can make guys respect the drive and get open looks for players like Daniels and PJ then it would improve. Running that weave that GS runs with their wings would create at least some confusion for the defense. Right now I think all the players on the other team know what we are going to do long before we start our play.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1916 » by ball teacher » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:27 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:So lets flip the script a bit. What kind of offense would suit the players we have?

I'll agree with yosemiteben in saying that "just go faster" really isn't enough by itself.


Let Al post up of course, that should be his only job offensively. Mkg should be used in the high post where he can set screens, feed Al, take the mid range shot or attack the rim. Also, I would use MKG in the low post, he and Al can pick for each other at times so that they could alternate in the post at times, same with Cody. Between Cody, Al and MKG, we can have a sort of triangle set that haz either Cody or MKG at the high post and the other two on or near the low block of course giving enough space for whoever is posted to operate.
Hendo should be used just like Rip Hamilton in Detroit, he should be running off screens for mid range shots, he can set high screens, occasionally hit open 3's or make the extra pass around the perimeter, but he's not a one on one type of player. His best move is the pull up jumper off 1 or 2 dribbles. Kemba really doesn't need a role, all he needs is a pick at times as he can get a shot up whenever he wants. I think we should have him fall back to option number 3 so that the focus on team and ball movement is established. Kemba being a featured scorer really is part of the problem cause we have put so much into trying to make him the guy, but doing so has hurt our efficiency and makes us stagnant.

When Lance comes in he should be the point guard off the bench, move Kemba to SG, have Taylor use the same role as Hendo running off screen for mid range shots, same with PJ. PJ should be the most active in movement cause you can just tell he can get hot, Problem is we just have him standing around ready to chuck shots from deep and he isnt even warmed up. When you see the first easy shot go in players tend to get more confident and then you extend the range, not vice versa.
Biz needs to play in the high post or on the block as the PF he really is, and we can have Vonleh alternate with him in this role since he's more skilled. It may be better for Biz to post more since he's been posting up centers for 4 seasons now, it should be easier with todays "stretch 4's" defending him. And of course, everytime we rebound we should run. Besides Al everyone can get up the court, if he cant keep up, oh well, get the outlet and let it fly. A fast break with Kemba or MKG pushing the rock should take no more than 4 seconds to score. That's how I would utilize the guys.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1917 » by GoBobs » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:36 pm

Getting out on the break can generate easy points.

With Al in the game we have bad defense. Other teams have figured out how to make him defend the pick and roll. Take him out and we struggle even more to generate decent shots in the half court. Pushing the pace of the game helps cover this weakness and plays to the strengths of our team, youth and fast big guys (besides Jefferson).
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1918 » by yosemiteben » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:37 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:So lets flip the script a bit. What kind of offense would suit the players we have?

Good question. Here are some interesting articles that I think are relevant to this discussion.

(1) April 2015 article - "Ball Movement and People Movement." Things I learned in this article: this past season, the Hornets were top 10, and in some cases top 5, in distance players run per 48 minutes, half court pace, passes per 48, and average time between passes. Major point: "While teams like the Spurs and Warriors have a clear emphasis on getting their players and the basketball moving, there isn’t a league-wide positive correlation between more movement and higher offensive rating."

(2) Pre-2014-15 season article - "Measuring ball and player movement." The conclusion: "there is no correlation between ball movement and offensive efficiency."

These make me wish I had access to SportVU.

I think these articles make a pretty convincing argument that just saying "have better ball movement" is not a good answer. I can see the counter that we pass the ball but a lot of times it's not purposeful, but IMO that is because our team is full of players that have very limited skill sets in terms of how they can score and need the ball in a certain area to be effective. Maybe it's just a matter of emphasis, but a lot of our guys need to improve their catch and shoot abilities and general scoring abilities.
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1919 » by mrknowitall215 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:59 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:So lets flip the script a bit. What kind of offense would suit the players we have?

I'll agree with yosemiteben in saying that "just go faster" really isn't enough by itself.


Unless you have a circa 1999 Shaquille O'Neal on the roster then the best brand of basketball to play for high offensive efficiency would be to increase the pace. However it isn't as simple as just pushing the ball up and running the floor after every defensive rebound because opposing teams are attentive of the importance of transition defense despite the occasional leak in that responsibility

Being imperative of speeding up the tempo is just a move in the right direction to have high offensive efficiency. The next step would be what Clifford calls "spacing". Having proper spacing on the floor and legit perimeter threats in the lineup keep a defense off balance. It's difficult for me to agree that we've had many "legit perimeter threats" on this roster over the past several years
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Re: #Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#1920 » by yosemiteben » Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:12 pm

jdm3 wrote:You are the one accepting it because most of the rest of us want a change.

That's not true at all, I am saying we have to actually fix the offense. Ironically in this situation you are the one that is being more lenient - I don't think just saying increase the pace is going to be a significant improvement, and I think it ignores the real problem. If we can't fix the real problem, then someone needs to go.

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