Don't Be Hurtin' Lin - The Jeremy Lin Thread 2

[bws94]

I thought it was bad TO but Lin didn't do much bad this game. Most of the game, he was playing on a very high level. He tired noticeably in the OTs.

[BatumtheGlue]

Lin did great that game, i have no complain for him. I always love a player who always plays his heart out and keep hustling for the entire game.

[spaceballer]

Tweets from the RealGM member (usually hangs out in the GB) who runs the Conservative News Media outlets on facebook/youtube/twitter.

Paul Villarreal
‏@CNM_JLin_Vids

For the first 5+ minutes of the 3rd quarter, Hornets ran the whole offense through Jeremy Lin. Went from 10-point deficit to 3-point lead

https://twitter.com/CNM_JLin_Vids/status/691841361335681024

I thought he had a good mix of both scoring and facilitation when he's allowed to run the team.

[spaceballer]

My sense is Clifford wants Lin to look to score more instead of facilitate..this is why Roberts is given minutes...so Lin is really a shooting guard who is averaging 3 assist per game...That's very good assist numbers for a shooting guard if you consider Batum and Kemba high usage number.

Even if we were labeling Lin as a shooting guard, Harden, Manu, Batum, Wade, Turner, Ellis, Oladipo, McCollum, DeRozan, Miller, Middleton, Butler, Ian Clark, and Randy Foye average roughly as many or more assists per minute than Jeremy Lin. Lin is 47th in assists per minute on the list of 57 qualified point guards. When you share the ball with other ball-handlers, such as Batum and Kemba, you're not getting a high number of assists, plain and simple. Kemba isn't very high on this list either for the same reason.

The issue with Lin is that he is 40th among 44 qualified point guards in Assist to Turnover ratio. The other four players are shooting guards miscast as point guards, super young, or simply stuck on a dysfunctional team (LaVine, Mudiay, Russell, Knight). For the amount of times he has the ball in his hands, he manages to cough it up way too easily. That's the number one thing holding him back from being a legitimate starting caliber player, whether it's at PG or SG.

The Rockets' GM Daryl Morey, known for his analytics, once went on Quora to defended Lin on this issue. He explained that not all turnovers and assists are equal.

I would add a few points to the many good ones already made here:

Many of Jeremy's turnovers are charges. These are the best turnovers to have as not only do charges mean that you are being aggressive as a player (when good things often happen) but also turnover charges are not "live ball" turnovers where teams get a higher expected value possession the other way. For example, in our opening Detroit game, Jeremy had no "bad pass" turnovers. They were all charges or off the dribble. Compare his lack of any bad pass turnovers to his 12 "high quality" passes in the game (passes he made that set up high percentage offense for others)


This leads into my next point that Jeremy's passes were the best in the league last year in the percentage that led to high quality offense. This is a fancy way of saying that when he makes a risky pass it is usually for a high reward so his bad pass turnovers, when he has them, are not as bad as for other guards as his avg possession efficiency remains higher


Finally, most young guards who are going to be very good start as high turnover players in college and in their early seasons in the pros and get better throughout their career

https://www.quora.com/2012%E2%80%9313-NBA-Season/Why-is-Jeremy-Lin-so-turnover-prone-and-how-can-he-fix-this

So just looking at the raw numbers available to laypeople on assists and turnovers is misleading. You have to use a more fine-grained system, like the proprietary ones that teams create using SportsVu data-mining. Systems that track not just whether an assist or turnover occurs, but the value of that assist or turnover and associated weight.

[hood30]

he was trying to split the double team... was not that bad of move, got to have the confidence to do that....

But it was totally unnecessary at that juncture as our lead was dwindling down to 3 so I agreed with Cliff for being irate. Maybe I'll replay it tomorrow but it was hilarious to me at the time. Sometimes you just have to laugh at silly plays, also LOL'd when Kemba dribbled into 3 players in OT and couldn't get up because of his sore knees. Maybe I have a weird sense of humor...

lin had the vision of lane, is it risky? yes, but you got to take your chance, the offense has hit a stall by then, the ball hovering around the arch with all low percentage jumpers... he saw the lane wanted to split the double team to take it, Collison could be called a foul on that too... that's not a bad move, players do that... it is not a silly play... Coach clifford is a conservative coach, i bet he would not like it... but if I were lin, I would do it again, just do it better

I agree here...Collison was able to read it and had quick hands to block Lin from splitting...If it wasn't for Collison, Lin would had been thru.

If Lin had succeeded in splitting, it would had been an easy 2 points.

Part of Lin game is the high risk, high reward type of play and this is why I was concerned when he picked the Hornets since Clifford is known to be very conservative and would rather his guard keep things simple.

Maybe you could make a case that it was bad timing and Lin should had not tried it there, but I hope he doesn't stop playing his game...My fear is, because of Clifford rants, he may become more conservative and stop trying these home-run plays...that is really a huge part of his game...We've seen him do these double-team splits that usually end up with an easy lay-up by Lin or assist at the rim for a big man to dunk.

Great game by Lin.

[hood30]

11 assist by Lin last night...How many of those assist were "at the rim" just like I had stated in my previous post?...

I counted 4 assist at the rim that were converted...3 to Hawes...and 1 to Hansbrough for a dunk.

Lin also find Marvin right open under the rim but Marvin had his lay-up blocked by Cousin.. but he grabbed his own rebound and layed it up successfully...So Lin did not have this assist converted.

Those were the easy assist that only required simple finish for easy basket...Lin had 4 and 1 was not converted properly by Marvin on the first attempt.

The rest of Lin assist were when he found wide open shooters from outside for jump shots...there were 7 of these assist that were converted by outside shooters.

So Lin seems to have this ability to get these easy assist for easy basket and I strongly believe if he were to play more PG duty and if Clifford were to allow him to play more PnR, he'd have more assist.

So my point is Lin low assist numbers has more to do with the Hornets not giving him time to play his game instead of it being his fault.

the fact that he's recording 3 assist as a shooting guard is good enough in my book.

I know this will not happen but if Lin were to play the point instead of Kemba, he'd definitely be averaging more assist than him..probably 6-7 per game...although with better finisher, he'd get a more...Lin has better vision than Kemba...Kemba is simply a better scorer who can create his own shot for himself because of great handle.

[spaceballer]

Hornets VP Pete Guelli:

Pete Guelli
‏@PeteGuelli

50 minutes played for @JLin7 in last nights 2OT win by the @hornets 11 players have done that all season. #Gamer

https://twitter.com/PeteGuelli/status/691964136796917760

[fatlever]

Lin is averaging 32.5 min/game in January, which would top his career high average of 32.2 his first year in Houston. Up to 27.6 for the season.

[RealHusky]

Lin is averaging 32.5 min/game in January, which would top his career high average of 32.2 his first year in Houston. Up to 27.6 for the season.

Lin is getting the minutes he deserves. RIght now Hornets just need to let Lin play more PG and handle the ball. Offense should start with Lin. Kemba, as I said many times, is a SG trapped in a PG's body. Kemba should play off the ball more vs. playing PG and going iso all the time. Offense simply flows better with Lin as the PG.

[qiantom]

Lin is a high risk high reward type of player, which is perfectly fine, but he should have awareness about not taking unnecessary risk in certain game situations.

[thekiller99]

Not a whole lot of folks here saying he is a superstar. Try looking at the stats for the hornets players. You say his percentages sucks. Well guess the whole team sucks. Kemba isn't close to a superstar so don't go down that road. Lin fans are no better or worse than any other fanatic fan of players. You went to a Lin site. What do you expect. Remember people are free to believe what they believe. Let me introduce you to politics..... like you admitted you go there for entertainment then come here and expect us to agree with you.... just continue with the discussions here and leave other sites out of this thread.

And I guess the toe is a worse injury than an ankle. Small sample size but your bench player is averaging 18 ppg mostly playing out of position in 8 starts.

You said everything I wanted to say here...What do you expect from a "Lin-cintrict" fan site?...I'm sure if there was kemba fan site, they'd feel the same way about him.

All you have to do is to simply stay away from Lin's fan site..Those sites are only for Lin true fan..Don't be coming here complaining about Lin fan on his site. [EDIT - mods]

lol, this site isn't jlinportal.com or jeremylin.net. You can't just ask the mods to ban someone because you think someone said something bad about lin, or your own personal lingenda.

Im a big lin fan, been a fan ever since linsanity days, and ive been watching him ever since. Some people here would call me a crazy lin fan. But why is it when I go to jlinportal or jeremylin.net, I find that I AM THE NORMAL ONE AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS CRAZY??? I have always thought lin was an amazing player, had alot of potential and a starting material, but the guys on those fansites have some next level thoughts of grandeur. Its not healthy.

I made ONE joke about lin sucking, ie last game against orlando magic and I got automatically banned the next day lol. All I said was "no lin no win", after hornets won without lin. Yes it was a troll post (i thought it was funny) but too many guys over there are over sensitive. Nobody can take a joke about lin without feeling insulted and this forces all the normal, non crazy posters to have to walk on pins and needles. Nobody is allowed to admit when lin actually has a bad game, and just say yeah "tonight was a bad night, its ok it happens, he will bounce back next game". Why is that so hard for some people to admit? Then when somebody point that out, the crazies get overly sensitive and say "oh this is a lin fan site, if you're not a fan get lost" LOL.

There are all types of lin fans. In reality, there are ALOT more normal fans than crazy ones in the world. Unfortunately, these websites, ie jeremylin.net and jlinportal caters to the crazies. It has become a sad situation over there, and in my opinion the site will just one day turn to hell. You NEED normal people to speak rationally to the crazies and keep the balance. If everybody is crazy then all you have is a damn group mentality cult. The stupid mods on those sites don't see that and just ban the normal posters who once in a while like to crack some jokes about lin, even IF they're fans. So, I find your idea of "true lin fan" a complete joke. No such thing as real or fake, all fans are fans and a fan site should be for all fans.

jlinportal for instance forces posters to be nice about Lin or you get warned/ban!
Those Lin sites are not even fair when posters can't use their freedom of speech without being labeled as a hater/troll.
You critisise Lin's game and you're banned!
You praise any other player especially Batum or Walker and you're labeled a troll/Hater and have your comment tagged

It's just a site filled with delusional fangirl mods banning people based on their emotions instead of logic.

[hood30]

Lin is averaging 32.5 min/game in January, which would top his career high average of 32.2 his first year in Houston. Up to 27.6 for the season.

It will be interesting to see what Clifford does once Batum, Lamb and MKG are back...Does Lin minutes gets cut dramatically...At the very least, Lin deserve 25 minutes...No less than that.

Keep in mind that in 9 starts for the hornets, Lin is averaging 18.4PPG and 4.3assist while shooting 46%FG and 41% 3points...Those are monster numbers while playing shooting guard..so he's doing all of that while playing out of position alongside ball-dominant Walker..impressive.

If this team keeps winning, does Clifford remove Lin out of the starting 5 to start MKG?...I know he's good defender but he does hurt you by not being able to shoot 3's....This team identity has changed and is more reliant on spreading the floor and shooting the 3ball...MKG won't be spreading the floor.

But anyway, I'd love for the streak to continue so I can see whether Clifford would dare change the line-up...Clifford messed around with the bench a lot and destroyed the chemistry that was going earlier this season...I just hope he learned his lesson..Don't mess with sdomething that works.

Let MKG come off the bench for the time being..He's probably rusty anyway..let him get in game shape by giving him 10-15 minutes in the first month when he's back and see how it goes and how does he blend in this new team with a brand new identity.

[bws94]

Lin is averaging 32.5 min/game in January, which would top his career high average of 32.2 his first year in Houston. Up to 27.6 for the season.

That's about where I thought it would be. Some of it is due to Batum being out, but I thought he'd be around 27/28 for the season.

[bws94]

Clifford said MKG is going to start. I hope Cliff limits his minutes at first. I'm kind of uneasy about him coming back early. I know he's itching to play, and may look great in practice. But going against guys in actual games, and as hard as he plays, I wouldn't want him to just reinjure himself where he's out again.

As far as Lin goes, he is a productive player. His biggest asset is getting in the paint and drawing fouls to get teams in the penalty and his versatility. He's also a 2-way player. Lin's minutes may not go down much at all. He already plays in the high 20s and sometimes 30 minutes when Batum plays.

[spaceballer]

You said everything I wanted to say here...What do you expect from a "Lin-cintrict" fan site?...I'm sure if there was kemba fan site, they'd feel the same way about him.

All you have to do is to simply stay away from Lin's fan site..Those sites are only for Lin true fan..Don't be coming here complaining about Lin fan on his site. [EDIT - mods]

lol, this site isn't jlinportal.com or jeremylin.net. You can't just ask the mods to ban someone because you think someone said something bad about lin, or your own personal lingenda.

Im a big lin fan, been a fan ever since linsanity days, and ive been watching him ever since. Some people here would call me a crazy lin fan. But why is it when I go to jlinportal or jeremylin.net, I find that I AM THE NORMAL ONE AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS CRAZY??? I have always thought lin was an amazing player, had alot of potential and a starting material, but the guys on those fansites have some next level thoughts of grandeur. Its not healthy.

I made ONE joke about lin sucking, ie last game against orlando magic and I got automatically banned the next day lol. All I said was "no lin no win", after hornets won without lin. Yes it was a troll post (i thought it was funny) but too many guys over there are over sensitive. Nobody can take a joke about lin without feeling insulted and this forces all the normal, non crazy posters to have to walk on pins and needles. Nobody is allowed to admit when lin actually has a bad game, and just say yeah "tonight was a bad night, its ok it happens, he will bounce back next game". Why is that so hard for some people to admit? Then when somebody point that out, the crazies get overly sensitive and say "oh this is a lin fan site, if you're not a fan get lost" LOL.

There are all types of lin fans. In reality, there are ALOT more normal fans than crazy ones in the world. Unfortunately, these websites, ie jeremylin.net and jlinportal caters to the crazies. It has become a sad situation over there, and in my opinion the site will just one day turn to hell. You NEED normal people to speak rationally to the crazies and keep the balance. If everybody is crazy then all you have is a damn group mentality cult. The stupid mods on those sites don't see that and just ban the normal posters who once in a while like to crack some jokes about lin, even IF they're fans. So, I find your idea of "true lin fan" a complete joke. No such thing as real or fake, all fans are fans and a fan site should be for all fans.

jlinportal for instance forces posters to be nice about Lin or you get warned/ban!
Those Lin sites are not even fair when posters can't use their freedom of speech without being labeled as a hater/troll.
You critisise Lin's game and you're banned!
You praise any other player especially Batum or Walker and you're labeled a troll/Hater and have your comment tagged

It's just a site filled with delusional fangirl mods banning people based on their emotions instead of logic.

Or maybe they're just banning trolls. The active moderation there seems to be much better than the moderation on Lin hating sites like Clutchfans that encourage flamefests and trolls.

I don't have an account there, so I'm not subject to any banning practices. But I think BigBob admitted here that he was trolling that site. So if he got banned for trolling, then that sounds fair.

Anyway, there's no reason to drag conflict from other sites onto this one.

I'm not even sure BigBob isn't just a Lin hater from Clutchfans pretending to be a Lin fan to troll RealGM, since he's used some terminology only used by Lin Haters on Clutchfans and not by Lin fans nor by Lin critics elsewhere. Didn't he pop up after Juan Cesta disappeared?

Anyway, we should move on from this discussion.

[spaceballer]

I like his sense of humor

ESPN 730 @ESPN730

Lin: "Let me go on record and say, we don't prefer overtime, but it has been working our for us so we'll take it"

https://twitter.com/ESPN730/status/692097629031927808

[tonman]

But it was totally unnecessary at that juncture as our lead was dwindling down to 3 so I agreed with Cliff for being irate. Maybe I'll replay it tomorrow but it was hilarious to me at the time. Sometimes you just have to laugh at silly plays, also LOL'd when Kemba dribbled into 3 players in OT and couldn't get up because of his sore knees. Maybe I have a weird sense of humor...

lin had the vision of lane, is it risky? yes, but you got to take your chance, the offense has hit a stall by then, the ball hovering around the arch with all low percentage jumpers... he saw the lane wanted to split the double team to take it, Collison could be called a foul on that too... that's not a bad move, players do that... it is not a silly play... Coach clifford is a conservative coach, i bet he would not like it... but if I were lin, I would do it again, just do it better

I don't know man, a resulted TO at a crucial moment is never a good risk to take especially if it's a play with a higher degree of difficulty. Coaches would rather a player miss a shot then make TOs such as this at crucial moments, I just recall saying to myself "yep you deserve this one Jeremy" lol.

a bad shot is just as bad as a turnover. and you have an idea of what the risk is by looking at shooting percentages.

[spaceballer]

Link to the full ESPN 730 radio interview
https://t.co/kaeivTVjfW

[jcmouse]

Lin is averaging 32.5 min/game in January, which would top his career high average of 32.2 his first year in Houston. Up to 27.6 for the season.

hope that does not mean injury is coming

[13th Man]

lin had the vision of lane, is it risky? yes, but you got to take your chance, the offense has hit a stall by then, the ball hovering around the arch with all low percentage jumpers... he saw the lane wanted to split the double team to take it, Collison could be called a foul on that too... that's not a bad move, players do that... it is not a silly play... Coach clifford is a conservative coach, i bet he would not like it... but if I were lin, I would do it again, just do it better

I don't know man, a resulted TO at a crucial moment is never a good risk to take especially if it's a play with a higher degree of difficulty. Coaches would rather a player miss a shot then make TOs such as this at crucial moments, I just recall saying to myself "yep you deserve this one Jeremy" lol.

a bad shot is just as bad as a turnover. and you have an idea of what the risk is by looking at shooting percentages.

C'mon guys, just acknowledge that it was a bad TO and move on, it's not the end of the world Lin played great last night. Made a bad untimely TO, got chewed out, it's all part of the game.