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For Years People on here said...

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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#21 » by Braggins » Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:29 am

SWedd523 wrote:"Got them right where we want 'em"

Not exactly, but it seems obvious their strategy for this season has revolved around not wanting to throw their 1st round pick in the trash because Mitch Kupchak somehow got duped by Kai Jones a few years ago.

I would imagine they expected to be healthier overall this season and not have lost so many games already, but they probably also expected the East to not suck as bad as it has and probably didn't think they were going to be in contention for the playoffs regardless, so I don't think they are bothered right now to be underperforming.

It would be so incredibly depressing to sneak into the playoffs this season with a losing record only to get swept by the Celtics and lose their draft pick, but it basically seems like some people are begging for them to try to engineer that exact outcome and it seems completely insane to me.

If they continue to not make moves to improve the team after they secure their draft pick, or if they try but make a bunch of terrible moves, then I will be complaining with the rest of you. Maybe a year from now it will be more obvious Lee isn't it and Salaun is a real bust (I'm skeptical of both of them too).

I think the positive developments are things like LaMelo absolutely balling out. Mark getting back on the court and looking like the same beast as always. The emergence of Tre Mann as a legit 6th man. Cody Martin being healthy all season. Nic Richards and Josh Green looking serviceable. The team finally starting to get healthy while still seeming like they aren't in danger of losing their pick. I think them not making any win-now moves is an explicitly good development. Miller hasn't been great, but I'm really not worried about him. Obviously not everything is going well, but I don't think all of the doom spiraling is warranted at this point.

They're one of the youngest teams in the league with a rookie head coach and theyve had exactly one game thus far with their entire starting lineup healthy and still had multiple of those guys on a minutes restriction in that one game. I'm not at all worried about where the win-loss record is currently at and given the circumstances I'm actively glad theyve racked up so many losses while everyone has been injured.

Maybe the stuff I'm talking about doesn't have much to do with your specific complaints/concerns, but in general I dont think a lot of the negativity about certain things makes much sense at this point.

edit: I understand people getting driven crazy by the insane injury luck, but as long as they aren't injuries with long term implications (sorry Grant :( ) they might be a blessing in disguise this season. There are only seven teams with a winning record in the East and six with a positive net rating. It might be possible to get into the East playoffs through the play-in with like 36 wins. The current 10th seed in the East is playing at a 33 win pace.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#22 » by Braggins » Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:41 am

Idk, I think there is more reason right now to be hopeful for this franchise than there ever has been since Ive started following and I've actually mostly enjoyed this season so far. I'm not convinced they are going to pull it off, but I'm also one of the last people who would be positive just for the sake of being positive and I legit think there are some real reasons to be hopeful for the franchise right now.

Assuming they retain their pick they can keep it and use it on a player (likely top 10) and have cap space to sign multiple veterans plus have multiple extra picks still to consolidate in a trade for another player. They could trade three 1sts this offseason and still only be down one 1st round pick from baseline. Thats a pretty good position to be in when you have a young core of LaMelo/Miller/Mark. They could easily completely **** the bed on the execution, but I think the overall plan is sound assuming this is what they are going for.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#23 » by KembaWalker » Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:59 am

Why are you so scared of a playoff series against the Celtics and getting spanked? It’s not like this team is gonna catapult from bottom 5 cellar to an elite sustainable team in one season, at some point we’re going to have to get smacked around in the first round. That would be actual progression. Just one more 19 year old and then you’ll be happy to “waste” a season on a first round playoff exit? Why stop there? 19 year olds don’t make bad teams into good teams..maybe just one more…

I get that shooting for the first round with Al Jefferson as your main guy seems kinda bad but a lot of people would have been very happy with LaMelo and Miller leading us to an actual postseason full series this year. It’s disappointing that even in a historically terrible conference they cannot remotely compete. A lotto ticket doesn’t make that less disappointing to me or fill me with confidence for the future
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#24 » by Liver_Pooty » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:07 am

I see both sides of the argument. I just wish we were all friends. :(
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#25 » by Chapelchilla » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:13 am

I think that they COULD have competed for a first-round loss this season if that was the goal or smart play. These guys would not be sitting out so long, we would not have strict minutes restrictions, and we would have pulled a small deal earlier.
I think they are actually executing plan. Probably a smart one. And that it's not gonna be too long before we push the cards in and go for it. Realistically - make for the playoffs next year, and if needed, bring someone bigger in the following one with the extra picks if we can contend with that squad or use them to keep building with young dudes if not. I don't mind losses this year if the young guys are developing and there is a way forward for once.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#26 » by KembaWalker » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:24 am

Chapelchilla wrote:I think that they COULD have competed for a first-round loss this season if that was the goal or smart play. These guys would not be sitting out so long, we would not have strict minutes restrictions, and we would have pulled a small deal earlier.
I think they are actually executing plan. Probably a smart one. And that it's not gonna be too long before we push the cards in and go for it. Realistically - make for the playoffs next year, and if needed, bring someone bigger in the following one with the extra picks if we can contend with that squad or use them to keep building with young dudes if not. I don't mind losses this year if the young guys are developing and there is a way forward for once.


Sorry if this is scoreboarding just tell me and I’ll knock it off, and it’s funny because I’m sure you could find plenty of similar examples of this for myself as well but

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2186310&p=98443509&hilit=Playoffs#p98443509


The endless cycle of “they actually have a plan this time, we’re simply 2 years away” with this team, I dunno how it doesn’t drive you guys totally insane trying to stay optimistic.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#27 » by SWedd523 » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:31 am

Braggins wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:"Got them right where we want 'em"

Not exactly, but it seems obvious their strategy for this season has revolved around not wanting to throw their 1st round pick in the trash because Mitch Kupchak somehow got duped by Kai Jones a few years ago.

I would imagine they expected to be healthier overall this season and not have lost so many games already, but they probably also expected the East to not suck as bad as it has and probably didn't think they were going to be in contention for the playoffs regardless, so I don't think they are bothered right now to be underperforming.

It would be so incredibly depressing to sneak into the playoffs this season with a losing record only to get swept by the Celtics and lose their draft pick, but it basically seems like some people are begging for them to try to engineer that exact outcome and it seems completely insane to me.

If they continue to not make moves to improve the team after they secure their draft pick, or if they try but make a bunch of terrible moves, then I will be complaining with the rest of you. Maybe a year from now it will be more obvious Lee isn't it and Salaun is a real bust (I'm skeptical of both of them too).

I think the positive developments are things like LaMelo absolutely balling out. Mark getting back on the court and looking like the same beast as always. The emergence of Tre Mann as a legit 6th man. Cody Martin being healthy all season. Nic Richards and Josh Green looking serviceable. The team finally starting to get healthy while still seeming like they aren't in danger of losing their pick. I think them not making any win-now moves is an explicitly good development. Miller hasn't been great, but I'm really not worried about him. Obviously not everything is going well, but I don't think all of the doom spiraling is warranted at this point.

They're one of the youngest teams in the league with a rookie head coach and theyve had exactly one game thus far with their entire starting lineup healthy and still had multiple of those guys on a minutes restriction in that one game. I'm not at all worried about where the win-loss record is currently at and given the circumstances I'm actively glad theyve racked up so many losses while everyone has been injured.

Maybe the stuff I'm talking about doesn't have much to do with your specific complaints/concerns, but in general I dont think a lot of the negativity about certain things makes much sense at this point.

edit: I understand people getting driven crazy by the insane injury luck, but as long as they aren't injuries with long term implications (sorry Grant :( ) they might be a blessing in disguise this season. There are only seven teams with a winning record in the East and six with a positive net rating. It might be possible to get into the East playoffs through the play-in with like 36 wins. The current 10th seed in the East is playing at a 33 win pace.

I guess I just don't understand why you're so concerned about losing a draft pick. You afraid they'll miss out on another Tiddy? Bouknight? Kai? Monk?

In the past twenty years the Hornets have drafted, what, three all stars (if you include Crash) and maybe a 4th if you include Miller someday.

Why are we clenched up at the thought of losing out on another Kaminsky or Zeller?


What's one more year? They're on pace to win 22 games this season and waste another year of Melo.

I'm sure everyone is super excited to add Kon Knueppel and run it back next year.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#28 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:38 am

KembaWalker wrote:Tanking for the draft is the laziest shortcut a team can pursue to build a good team

What should a team that is avoided by free agents do instead?

Trade Melo for SGA and Miller for Wemby?
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#29 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:40 am

JustBuzzin wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Out of curiosity, when Jeff and the owners said at their introductory press conferences that they weren't going to take short cuts and were going to build for long term success:

(1) Did folks at that point in time think that was a bad approach?

(2) Have you seen something that suggests a change in philosophy?

I'm candidly surprised anyone else is surprised at their approach, given how consistent their message was about what they're trying to do.

LaMelo's play caught me by surprise. I knew he was all-star caliber, but he has shown top 5 player ability with his scoring this season. If you have a potential top 10 player you have to speed up the process. By the time the process is done Melo will be a FA looking for other options.

I think due to the talent we have Melo/Miller/Mark we have to start making some noise sooner than later. With a likely high draft pick incoming we have to hit on that pick. Next year people are going to be looking at us with 2 all-star caliber players in Melo/Miller and saying why can't this team win with these 2 talents..

This long-term approach seems crazy if you ask me. We already have a foundation. It's about putting winning pieces around them.

I'm pretty sure the plan is get a good pick this year and then try to make some win now moves with our draft pick trade restrictions no longer an issue, as the protections will extinguish our obligation to send a first to SA this year. I don't see this as a 5 years until we make our moves scenario.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#30 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:43 am

:clap:
Braggins wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:"Got them right where we want 'em"

Not exactly, but it seems obvious their strategy for this season has revolved around not wanting to throw their 1st round pick in the trash because Mitch Kupchak somehow got duped by Kai Jones a few years ago.

I would imagine they expected to be healthier overall this season and not have lost so many games already, but they probably also expected the East to not suck as bad as it has and probably didn't think they were going to be in contention for the playoffs regardless, so I don't think they are bothered right now to be underperforming.

It would be so incredibly depressing to sneak into the playoffs this season with a losing record only to get swept by the Celtics and lose their draft pick, but it basically seems like some people are begging for them to try to engineer that exact outcome and it seems completely insane to me.

If they continue to not make moves to improve the team after they secure their draft pick, or if they try but make a bunch of terrible moves, then I will be complaining with the rest of you. Maybe a year from now it will be more obvious Lee isn't it and Salaun is a real bust (I'm skeptical of both of them too).

I think the positive developments are things like LaMelo absolutely balling out. Mark getting back on the court and looking like the same beast as always. The emergence of Tre Mann as a legit 6th man. Cody Martin being healthy all season. Nic Richards and Josh Green looking serviceable. The team finally starting to get healthy while still seeming like they aren't in danger of losing their pick. I think them not making any win-now moves is an explicitly good development. Miller hasn't been great, but I'm really not worried about him. Obviously not everything is going well, but I don't think all of the doom spiraling is warranted at this point.

They're one of the youngest teams in the league with a rookie head coach and theyve had exactly one game thus far with their entire starting lineup healthy and still had multiple of those guys on a minutes restriction in that one game. I'm not at all worried about where the win-loss record is currently at and given the circumstances I'm actively glad theyve racked up so many losses while everyone has been injured.

Maybe the stuff I'm talking about doesn't have much to do with your specific complaints/concerns, but in general I dont think a lot of the negativity about certain things makes much sense at this point.

edit: I understand people getting driven crazy by the insane injury luck, but as long as they aren't injuries with long term implications (sorry Grant :( ) they might be a blessing in disguise this season. There are only seven teams with a winning record in the East and six with a positive net rating. It might be possible to get into the East playoffs through the play-in with like 36 wins. The current 10th seed in the East is playing at a 33 win pace.

:clap:
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#31 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:48 am

KembaWalker wrote:
Chapelchilla wrote:I think that they COULD have competed for a first-round loss this season if that was the goal or smart play. These guys would not be sitting out so long, we would not have strict minutes restrictions, and we would have pulled a small deal earlier.
I think they are actually executing plan. Probably a smart one. And that it's not gonna be too long before we push the cards in and go for it. Realistically - make for the playoffs next year, and if needed, bring someone bigger in the following one with the extra picks if we can contend with that squad or use them to keep building with young dudes if not. I don't mind losses this year if the young guys are developing and there is a way forward for once.


Sorry if this is scoreboarding just tell me and I’ll knock it off, and it’s funny because I’m sure you could find plenty of similar examples of this for myself as well but

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2186310&p=98443509&hilit=Playoffs#p98443509


The endless cycle of “they actually have a plan this time, we’re simply 2 years away” with this team, I dunno how it doesn’t drive you guys totally insane trying to stay optimistic.

Yeah we've been injured as f*ck since the moment Borrego was canned so I don't think this is as big of a deal as you think it is.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#32 » by Braggins » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:49 am

I think people have been pretty clear that they aren't saying to keep tanking indefinitely or to try to completely bottom out for a long period. We're specifically saying they should wait til this very next offseason and then start making moves and its been made pretty clear why we think they should do that. Peterson has been here for nine months and its not his fault that none of the regimes of the last two decades have managed to put together a coherent team building vision.

I honestly think it probably would have been best to take this approach for this season even if their pick wasn't on the line, but if they didn't owe the pick I think it would have also been viable to go for a more aggressive approach in the offseason, or to pivot at this current point in response to how awful the East has been. If there wasn't any major downside to making the playoffs and it was only a matter of where they were picking in the 1st round and not whether or not they were going to have a pick at all, then Id say sure go for it right now if the right moves are available. The two possible outcomes with their pick are to either have a lottery pick in the Cooper Flagg draft, or have no 1st round pick.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#33 » by Braggins » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:52 am

SWedd523 wrote:I guess I just don't understand why you're so concerned about losing a draft pick.

Because I don't think the upside to sneaking into the playoffs this year just because the East is garbage is worth the downside of not having a 1st round pick. There just isn't any good reason to aim for that outcome and there is a clear reason to try to avoid it. There is significantly more upside in having a lottery pick in the Cooper Flagg draft and not really any downside to missing the playoffs for another season.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#34 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:53 am

SWedd523 wrote:
Braggins wrote:
SWedd523 wrote:"Got them right where we want 'em"

Not exactly, but it seems obvious their strategy for this season has revolved around not wanting to throw their 1st round pick in the trash because Mitch Kupchak somehow got duped by Kai Jones a few years ago.

I would imagine they expected to be healthier overall this season and not have lost so many games already, but they probably also expected the East to not suck as bad as it has and probably didn't think they were going to be in contention for the playoffs regardless, so I don't think they are bothered right now to be underperforming.

It would be so incredibly depressing to sneak into the playoffs this season with a losing record only to get swept by the Celtics and lose their draft pick, but it basically seems like some people are begging for them to try to engineer that exact outcome and it seems completely insane to me.

If they continue to not make moves to improve the team after they secure their draft pick, or if they try but make a bunch of terrible moves, then I will be complaining with the rest of you. Maybe a year from now it will be more obvious Lee isn't it and Salaun is a real bust (I'm skeptical of both of them too).

I think the positive developments are things like LaMelo absolutely balling out. Mark getting back on the court and looking like the same beast as always. The emergence of Tre Mann as a legit 6th man. Cody Martin being healthy all season. Nic Richards and Josh Green looking serviceable. The team finally starting to get healthy while still seeming like they aren't in danger of losing their pick. I think them not making any win-now moves is an explicitly good development. Miller hasn't been great, but I'm really not worried about him. Obviously not everything is going well, but I don't think all of the doom spiraling is warranted at this point.

They're one of the youngest teams in the league with a rookie head coach and theyve had exactly one game thus far with their entire starting lineup healthy and still had multiple of those guys on a minutes restriction in that one game. I'm not at all worried about where the win-loss record is currently at and given the circumstances I'm actively glad theyve racked up so many losses while everyone has been injured.

Maybe the stuff I'm talking about doesn't have much to do with your specific complaints/concerns, but in general I dont think a lot of the negativity about certain things makes much sense at this point.

edit: I understand people getting driven crazy by the insane injury luck, but as long as they aren't injuries with long term implications (sorry Grant :( ) they might be a blessing in disguise this season. There are only seven teams with a winning record in the East and six with a positive net rating. It might be possible to get into the East playoffs through the play-in with like 36 wins. The current 10th seed in the East is playing at a 33 win pace.

I guess I just don't understand why you're so concerned about losing a draft pick. You afraid they'll miss out on another Tiddy? Bouknight? Kai? Monk?

In the past twenty years the Hornets have drafted, what, three all stars (if you include Crash) and maybe a 4th if you include Miller someday.

Why are we clenched up at the thought of losing out on another Kaminsky or Zeller?


What's one more year? They're on pace to win 22 games this season and waste another year of Melo.

I'm sure everyone is super excited to add Kon Knueppel and run it back next year.

Most of those guys were drafted in the late lottery so not sure you are comparing apples and apples here. This is going to be most likely a top 5 pick, almost certainly top 6 even worst case scenario we luck out in the lottery. Do people legit want to give up a (likely early) first rounder to be swept in the first round?

Assuming NO gets some bodies back at some point we are probably looking at a 50% chance of having one of Flagg/Harper/Bailey or Demin plaing for us next season. But lets get swept in the first round instead.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#35 » by KembaWalker » Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:01 am

Using that logic it’s basically never justifiable to ever try to win ever, there’s always a draft there’s always a prospect coming up. Yall talk about no shortcuts but the real shortcut here is thinking the only two acceptable outcomes for a season are a top 5 pick or making the conference finals and acting like this team is gonna somehow transition instantly from one to the other without some playoff learning
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#36 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:04 am

KembaWalker wrote:Using that logic it’s basically never justifiable to ever try to win ever, there’s always a draft there’s always a prospect coming up. Yall talk about no shortcuts but the real shortcut here is thinking the only two acceptable outcomes for a season are a top 5 pick or making the conference finals and acting like this team is gonna somehow transition instantly from one to the other without some playoff learning

Nobody said we'd be transitioning to the East finals next year with Flagg or Harper. Just that we now have a core of guys who can grow into something sustainable and it is time to start making moves towards that goal.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#37 » by Walt Cronkite » Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:06 am

Most draft picks don’t make it, but most great players get drafted. It’s better to have a draft pick than not, unless you are in a position to win.
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#38 » by luciano-davidwesley » Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:06 am

KembaWalker wrote:Tanking for the draft is the laziest shortcut a team can pursue to build a good team

Hmmm let me see...

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/6/23/12020444/kings-trade-marco-belinelli-to-hornets-for-no-22-pick-per-report
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#39 » by KembaWalker » Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:11 am

luciano-davidwesley wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:Tanking for the draft is the laziest shortcut a team can pursue to build a good team

Hmmm let me see...

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/6/23/12020444/kings-trade-marco-belinelli-to-hornets-for-no-22-pick-per-report


Who’d that pick turn into?
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Re: For Years People on here said... 

Post#40 » by SWedd523 » Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:13 am

luciano-davidwesley wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:Tanking for the draft is the laziest shortcut a team can pursue to build a good team

Hmmm let me see...

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/6/23/12020444/kings-trade-marco-belinelli-to-hornets-for-no-22-pick-per-report

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/richama01.html

The guy taken with that pick lol
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