Start up the tank

[Braggins]

Spoiler:

I can already tell Im not going to want to be involved in this discussion on here, but all I'm going to say is that if they get the first pick I would be extremely surprised if they don't take Cooper Flagg.

You are already replacing Salaün?

no

[JMAC3]

just because we can't agree on anything on here, (just kidding), but I'm team Flagg.
I'd start:
Melo
Green
Miller
Flagg
Mark

I know everyone is disappointed in Green, but in the Bruce Bowen 3nD mold, he will be fine.

How is that any different than Green this year? He just isn't good and the advanced metrics back that up.

[GiggitySmalls]

I'm team flagg because we have been starved for wings for since forever. Having him and Miller moves the needle. We need to get a quality sg to replace green and Martin so Mann can be super 6. I don't know if that involves trading miles or what but green and Martin as @$$!!!

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[wilson115]

Cavs have the best record.

They have 2 primary playmakers in their backcourt.

Donovan Mitchell - Darius Garland. Oh look, they're terrible defensively without a zero like Josh Green starting next to just one primary playmaker.

Luka - Kryie. Two primary playmakers

The teams that run offense through their backcourt (a feature of modern NBA) have poor defensive pairings but use primary playmaking to generate offense.

They build their defense from their wing positions and bigs.

Cavs have Mobely - Allen. They have Okoro.

Mavs have Lively - Gafford - PJ. They had Derek Jones Jr.

Made the finals by concentrating offense in the correct areas and defense in the correct areas.

Hornets have Mark Williams but would need an upgrade at PF in order to cover for the poor defense in the backcourt.

But dual playmaking backcourts are becoming the standard for serious teams.

Boston runs Jrue - White and gets both offense and defense from them on top of dual playmaking.

Josh Green needs to replace Martin on the bench.

Every role player on this team needs the axe. And Miles needs to recover some value.

Fantastic argument for Flagg then, since he gives you both, playmaking and solid defense.

Seeing how the Cavs never advanced past the first round until last year (after significantly upgrading the rest of the roster) and the Mavs with Kyrie and Luka missed the playoffs altogether before retooling last season, it obviously isn't down to simply having "dual playmaking backcourts". This year's Cavs have done better with just one ball-dominant guard on the floor to go with sharing the ball more often thanks to having more offensive weapons all-around.
https://www.nba.com/news/4-reasons-why-cavs-are-at-top-of-nba-standings

Spoiler:

Both Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell have seen significant drops in how much time they have possession of the ball, while Evan Mobley has seen a jump, from 1.9 minutes per game (6.2% of his time on the floor) to 2.3 minutes per game (7.6%).

The guy who’s taken the ball out of the two starting guards’ hands the most is Ty Jerome, who played just 15 total minutes last season and has averaged 18 minutes (2.5 minutes of possession) this season.

Better balance in regard to who’s handling the ball, added ball and player movement, and more drives allow Garland and Mitchell to attack a rotating defense more often…

The Cavs have two great playmaking guards and two great rim-protecting bigs. That allows them to have one of each on the floor at all times. This season, they’ve paired Garland with Jarrett Allen, with Mitchell playing more minutes alongside Mobley.

The Cavs have outscored their opponents with only Garland and Allen on the floor, but they’ve been at their best (plus-15.3 points per 100 possessions) with only Mitchell and Mobley.

The Celtics clearly generate their offense from the wing position (Tatum and Brown), what their backcourt does give them is elite defense that lets their best line-up switch against anyone, even mostly playing without the rim protection the Cavs have.

The Hornets obviously lack what the Celtics have—being able to field a line-up with solid two-way players at every position.
Outside of Grant and maybe Miller and Mark, the roster's made-up of one-way guys like Cody or Moose (solid defenders who often struggle to score) or LaMelo and Mann (guys with the opposite problem).

Other than hurting the on-court product, it's also an inefficient use of the cap to pay a whole roster of one-note specialists. The appeal then of a real two-way player like Flagg is obvious if we end up in a position to get him, and I believe this FO gets it seeing they rolled the dice on a player with that potential (Salaun) this last draft.

[JustBuzzin]

I'm team flagg because we have been starved for wings for since forever. Having him and Miller moves the needle. We need to get a quality sg to replace green and Martin so Mann can be super 6. I don't know if that involves trading miles or what but green and Martin as @$$!!!

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Flagg is a pf.

[GiggitySmalls]

I'm team flagg because we have been starved for wings for since forever. Having him and Miller moves the needle. We need to get a quality sg to replace green and Martin so Mann can be super 6. I don't know if that involves trading miles or what but green and Martin as @$$!!!

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Flagg is a pf.

Flagg is switchable. Between 3 and 4 or 4 and 3 depending on what's needed.

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[fatlever]

Can we just take the draft discussion to the draft thread?

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[JustBuzzin]

I'm team flagg because we have been starved for wings for since forever. Having him and Miller moves the needle. We need to get a quality sg to replace green and Martin so Mann can be super 6. I don't know if that involves trading miles or what but green and Martin as @$$!!!

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Flagg is a pf.

Flagg is switchable. Between 3 and 4 or 4 and 3 depending on what's needed.

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Doesn't have the consistent handle to be a true wing. He can play sf, but he's most definitely a pf in today's NBA.

[JustBuzzin]

Can we just take the draft discussion to the draft thread?

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Isn't the draft part of the tank thread?

[Bassman]

Can we just take the draft discussion to the draft thread?

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Isn't the draft part of the tank thread?

Nah, I think the tank thread is all about the misery of the tank, pulling for the tank, postulating on what players are doing to contribute to the tank, etc.

[JMAC3]

Cavs have the best record.

They have 2 primary playmakers in their backcourt.

Donovan Mitchell - Darius Garland. Oh look, they're terrible defensively without a zero like Josh Green starting next to just one primary playmaker.

Luka - Kryie. Two primary playmakers

The teams that run offense through their backcourt (a feature of modern NBA) have poor defensive pairings but use primary playmaking to generate offense.

They build their defense from their wing positions and bigs.

Cavs have Mobely - Allen. They have Okoro.

Mavs have Lively - Gafford - PJ. They had Derek Jones Jr.

The issue with comparing us to a team like Dallas is that they have a top 5 player in the world and another guy that on any given night can score 40, so they can afford to punt the other three spots with guys that shoot and defend. A big reason why PJ looks so much better in Dallas with less on his plate offensively.

Hornets top 2 offensive threats aren't as good so we have to be able to put 4 guys on the court who can score to keep up, which usually means we are bad on defense. Funny thing about the NBA having a top 10 player makes everything a lot easier.

As things stand with core 3 of Melo, Miller and Mark, none are good defenders. Brandon is probably average, Mark is below average and LaMelo is bottom of the barrel defender. At least 1 of the other 2 starters needs to be a defensive stud to make this thing work moving forward. However, we aren't good enough offensively with LaMelo, Brandon and Mark that we can just punt on offense and play 2 defenders who give you nothing on offense either.

That is the issue with our lineup now, Green is grading as a bad defender, Miles is LaMelo bad so far this year on defense.

[JMAC3]

The issue with comparing us to a team like Dallas is that they have a top 5 player in the world and another guy that on any given night can score 40, so they can afford to punt the other three spots with guys that shoot and defend. A big reason why PJ looks so much better in Dallas with less on his plate offensively.

Hornets top 2 offensive threats aren't as good so we have to be able to put 4 guys on the court who can score to keep up, which usually means we are bad on defense. Funny thing about the NBA having a top 10 player makes everything a lot easier.

As things stand with core 3 of Melo, Miller and Mark, none are good defenders. Brandon is probably average, Mark is below average and LaMelo is bottom of the barrel defender. At least 1 of the other 2 starters needs to be a defensive stud to make this thing work moving forward. However, we aren't good enough offensively with LaMelo, Brandon and Mark that we can just punt on offense and play 2 defenders who give you nothing on offense either.

That is the issue with our lineup now, Green is grading as a bad defender, Miles is LaMelo bad so far this year on defense.

This is why for me personally, a player like Flagg is more valuable. He would be our best defender, but also be able to carry the offensive burden of being a top 3 offensive option for us too. Would make filling the other starter job much easier.

Harper would be another great offensive engine, but none of LaMelo, Harper or Miller are suited to guard the other teams top offensive option. So we are trying to find a PF who is just a defensive stopper, which isn't an easy task.

Mark not being a defensive anchor is going to really hurt his value. Still way too early to accept that as the new norm, but he is 10% Def EPM. His Def Rating on NBA.com is 119 which is 2nd worst among rotation pieces on our team.

[Diop]

just because we can't agree on anything on here, (just kidding), but I'm team Flagg.
I'd start:
Melo
Green
Miller
Flagg
Mark

I know everyone is disappointed in Green, but in the Bruce Bowen 3nD mold, he will be fine.

How is that any different than Green this year? He just isn't good and the advanced metrics back that up.

I’ll admit I haven’t looked up his metrics, he’s shooting 40% from 3 and is an active defender. I’m happy to upgrade him but I think that’s going to be difficult. If somehow we trade Green then start miller at sg and miles a forward.

[JMAC3]

NBA Tiers by JMAC

Contenders - Celtics, Thunder, Mavericks, Nuggets

Pre-Contenders- Knicks, Cavs, Grizzlies, Rockets, Timberwolves

Young Playoff teams - Magic, Hawks, Pacers, Spurs

Old Playoff teams - Bucks, Sixers, Heat, Lakers, Clippers, Suns, Warriors

Young and Talented - Hornets, Pistons, Kings

Mismatch of Talent- Blazers, Pelicans, Bulls, Raptors

No Building Blocks - Wizards, Nets, Jazz

Out of the 30 NBA teams, 20 teams are competing. I would say we are for sure in the bottom 10 right now. Above it would be the last 3 tiers.

Although teams like Blazers, Pelicans, Bulls, Raptors, might have more talent top to bottom on the roster. I would make the argument that most of the pieces do no fit and they have very few sure things on their roster.

Jazz, Wizards, Nets are pretty void of both talent and good young players. Lauri would count, but it seems very likely Jazz move him in a year, outside of that they are terrible. Wizards have a few interesting young pieces but they are just an idea of maybe someday and haven't shown even close to enough. Nets continue to get worse and probably do not have a top 100 asset on their roster.

Teams like Hawks, Pacers, Magic, Spurs were teams similar to Charlotte but have appeared to have turned the corner on winning and therefore passed Hornets. Pistons and Kings are probably the closest teams to Charlotte at this point in terms of develpment. They have a for sure young piece in Fox/Sabonis, Cade and LaMelo but the rest of the roster lacks talent.

I would rank the bottom 10 in order I would want to be that team moving forward.
1. Sacramento- 2 studs, just shaky grounds right now.
2. Charlotte - 2 young building blocks, no talent around them. A few bonus picks.
3. Pelicans - On paper talented, but no sure building block.
4. Raptors - Scottie, bunch of mismatched pieces they can sell.
5. Pistons - Potential stud, no sure pieces around him. meh market. mediocre picks.
6. Blazers - No building block, bunch of okay talent but might trade it all.
7. Bulls - No building block, but good market.
8. Nets - No building block, lots of picks, good market
9. Wizards - Mediocre picks, some promising young talent but no building block.
10. Jazz - Lots of picks, bad talent, lacking young pieces and terrible market.

Maybe I am too optimistic but I would still take Charlotte situation over 8 other teams moving forward.

[luciano-davidwesley]

Swap the Nets and Bulls and move the Jazz up to about 5 (due to picks and Lauri about to become more picks) and I agree with everything else.

Our market/reputation counts against us though, much like Utah. You see it every free agency how averse players are to join us.

[KembaWalker]

LaMelo is a lot closer to “on paper talented” than he is “young building block”

and Brandon is just like, not playing well at all this season. I'm not sure he's particularly more impressive than Bilal Coulibaly considering the latter is basically just now hitting rookie Brandon age

[JMAC3]

LaMelo is a lot closer to “on paper talented” than he is “young building block”

and Brandon is just like, not playing well at all this season. I'm not sure he's particularly more impressive than Bilal Coulibaly considering the latter is basically just now hitting rookie Brandon age

LaMelo is 6th best player on offense this season according to EPM, he is 23 years old.

Brandon is grading out 81% on Off, 53% on Def and 77% Overall
Bilal is grading out 33% on Off, 69% on Def and 41% Overall

Brandon also averaging 8 more ppg in the raw stats. I haven't seen anything from Bilal that says he will be a 22 ppg scorer in the next 2 years and I actually like Bilal a good deal.

[JMAC3]

Swap the Nets and Bulls and move the Jazz up to about 5 (due to picks and Lauri about to become more picks) and I agree with everything else.

Our market/reputation counts against us though, much like Utah. You see it every free agency how averse players are to join us.

Yeah, I think having those picks is pretty useless until you have 1-2 stars. Utah tried to trade for guys this summer and the feedback they got was guys like Ingram, Dejounte, Towns had no interest in playing for Utah. Utah also wanted young players for Lauri like Podz and Kuminga over picks, teams just don't trade young talent for players unless they are All-NBA players.

If Utah crushes the draft this year things could change but they have been terrible in the draft lately.

Nets could definitely have a case to be higher with their picks, but again comes down to talent for me.
Coby, Giddey, Matas, Pwill and Ayo are just far more interesting to me than... Cam Thomas, Claxton, Clowney and Sharpe.

[KembaWalker]

LaMelo is a lot closer to “on paper talented” than he is “young building block”

and Brandon is just like, not playing well at all this season. I'm not sure he's particularly more impressive than Bilal Coulibaly considering the latter is basically just now hitting rookie Brandon age

LaMelo is 6th best player on offense this season according to EPM, he is 23 years old.

Brandon is grading out 81% on Off, 53% on Def and 77% Overall
Bilal is grading out 33% on Off, 69% on Def and 41% Overall

Brandon also averaging 8 more ppg in the raw stats. I haven't seen anything from Bilal that says he will be a 22 ppg scorer in the next 2 years and I actually like Bilal a good deal.

those stats say more about the quality of EPM as a metric than it does about their ability. nobody is impressed with LaMelo and Brandons chucking this season and the outcome in our offense and record speaks for itself

[JMAC3]

LaMelo is a lot closer to “on paper talented” than he is “young building block”

and Brandon is just like, not playing well at all this season. I'm not sure he's particularly more impressive than Bilal Coulibaly considering the latter is basically just now hitting rookie Brandon age

LaMelo is 6th best player on offense this season according to EPM, he is 23 years old.

Brandon is grading out 81% on Off, 53% on Def and 77% Overall
Bilal is grading out 33% on Off, 69% on Def and 41% Overall

Brandon also averaging 8 more ppg in the raw stats. I haven't seen anything from Bilal that says he will be a 22 ppg scorer in the next 2 years and I actually like Bilal a good deal.

those stats say more about the quality of EPM as a metric than it does about their ability. nobody is impressed with LaMelo and Brandons chucking this season and the outcome in our offense and record speaks for itself

I don't get the war on EPM, by far the best stat imo.

Lamelo is top 10 in apg, top 20 in fta, 6th in drives per game and 3rd in ppg on drives.
Along with leading the league in 3s made per game.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives?dir=D&sort=DRIVES

Him scoring on 72%+ of his drives is elite. Higher than SGA, Brunson, Ja, Harden, Trae etc etc.

So maybe the LaMelo never drives and only chucks narrative is a bit overserved.