The Okafor Suddenly Sucks Thread
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Rich4114
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fatlever wrote:okafor's stats since we traded for nazr
10.4ppg, 9.8rpg 1.9bpg, 8.9fga
okafor's stats since mcinnis became the starting pg
7.8ppg, 9.8rpg, 3.0bpg, 8.0fga
okafor's stats with felton as the starting pg
13.7ppg, 10.7ppg, 1.7bpg, 10.5fga
okafor's stats with nazr and okafor in the starting lineup together
12.7ppg, 9.8rpg, 1.0bpg, 9.7fga
Those are interesting but not surprising stats. The only two guys on this team who've shown any sign of chemestry working together are Okafor and Felton. Felton is at his best running plays or going to the rim with Okafor and Okafor is at his best playing off of Felton. It's been this way all of last year and the hand full of times they've happened to be in posisition to have an opportunity for plays this year.
We can let Wallace and Richardson try to score all they want, but this is not the way to utilize those guys. You put either of those two in a good disciplined system and they're not ignoring the PG taking the ball up the court, holding onto it for 12 seconds, then finally passing it back to the PG. (Anyone else seen them do this a lot, especially Wallace?).
We've got the most talent we've ever had on this team, even WITH the injuries to May and Ammo yet we look horrible because our offense is a free-lance-do-your-own-thing offense. The other night I was at the NJ game and Wallace and Richardson almost knocked eachother over at the base line 3pt line. Um, shouldn't they not be going to the same spot at the same time if we're running a play?
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Rich4114
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Oh and also another thing I noticed watching the Bobcats bench closely the other night, you can litterally see the frustration on Felton and Okafor's face. When Sam put Mcinnis back in Felton came to the bench and slammed his warmup down and sat down all pissed off. A little after that Okafor came out and just gave Sam a dirty look and shook his head in disgust. This guy certainly does not have this team's respect or confidence... and it's no surprise, he's just not a competent NBA coach. And it's not his fault, he's got ZERO coaching experience, even as a damn assistant. This one's on Mike and Bernie I'm afraid.
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vexco
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August Us Seazr
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Bowens wrote:So what team will Mek be playing for next season?
And if he's not playing home games in Charlotte, I hope that it will be in Houston! We get back Yao Ming (just dreaming).
Claw on, Cats
And great 2 game win streak!
In loving memory of Barbara Hickman Taylor 07/20/1955-11/27/2010. Rest in Peace Sweet Lady!
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therebirth
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Walt Cronkite
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Walt Cronkite
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Paydro70
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I really can't take this "Okafor sucks" talk seriously. Last year we were on his nuts because he was an elite defensive big, a top rebounder, and at least an efficient, perhaps even underutilized, offensive player. Now apparently he's straight garbage, worse than Mohammed, and should be traded?
He's not playing very well, obviously, and Mohammed's very impressive play over the past month has been a pleasant surprise. The fact that Mohammed has played better does not make him better for the long-haul, nor is he a reason to get rid of Emeka.
Emeka is not a cancer, and he's not overpaid. There's no point to getting all excited about him playing poorly, or saying something like "we need to get him out of here." The smart thing to do is wait it out... the worst case is that he plays poorly all year, and then we let him go to restricted free agency and see what happens. Last year, there would have been the possibility of him getting 12m+, this year, it looks like he won't make that much, so he'll have to come back for the qualifying offer and we'll get another year to see what he does.
The best case is that he gets used to playing with Mohammed, the lineups get solidified, and he starts playing like last year. We evaluate his contract and see what we can agree to, and this slump gives the Cats an excuse to underpay him.
Players don't usually just "get worse" at a relatively young age and with no injury involved. I have to think that it's more likely that he plays his way out of the slump than that last year was a complete fluke (on the defensive end??) and he secretly was awful all along.
He's not playing very well, obviously, and Mohammed's very impressive play over the past month has been a pleasant surprise. The fact that Mohammed has played better does not make him better for the long-haul, nor is he a reason to get rid of Emeka.
Emeka is not a cancer, and he's not overpaid. There's no point to getting all excited about him playing poorly, or saying something like "we need to get him out of here." The smart thing to do is wait it out... the worst case is that he plays poorly all year, and then we let him go to restricted free agency and see what happens. Last year, there would have been the possibility of him getting 12m+, this year, it looks like he won't make that much, so he'll have to come back for the qualifying offer and we'll get another year to see what he does.
The best case is that he gets used to playing with Mohammed, the lineups get solidified, and he starts playing like last year. We evaluate his contract and see what we can agree to, and this slump gives the Cats an excuse to underpay him.
Players don't usually just "get worse" at a relatively young age and with no injury involved. I have to think that it's more likely that he plays his way out of the slump than that last year was a complete fluke (on the defensive end??) and he secretly was awful all along.
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Walt Cronkite
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Ok, to start, a summary of the points of the thread so far, beginning with the major theories of Okafor's disappointing season:
-PG play
-Vincent
-Skill Regression
Regardless of those theories, the main sentiment behind the "TRADE OKAFOR" sentiment stems from 1 argument "Mohammed has immediately become better than Okafor", so that's what I want to discuss.
Mohammed per 48, 5 starts (2-3 record): 9.7-16.6FGM-A 58.182 FG% 2.4-4.5 FTM-A 53.333FT% 1.81Steals 2.42Blocks 4.2TOs 5.4PFs 5.7OREB 12.1DREB 17.8TOTAL 1.8 Assist 21.7 Points
Mohammed per 48 1st 5 games (until ESPN updates) 10.6-18.5FGM-A 57.50 FG% 3.7-7.4 FTM-A 50.000FT% 1.85 Steals 1.38Blocks 4.2TOs 9.2Fouls 4.2Orebs 11.1Drebs 15.2Total 1.8 assist 24.9 points
Off of the bench Mohammed has been more aggressive than when he started. He's scoring more points (on more shots) but also has 1.5 x more fouls (on less blocks, which says to me he's either assuming his role<backup big w/fouls to give> or going after shots and fouling instead of getting the block). He rebounded more as a starter too, but we're really not going to know too much from this because he also got more total minutes when he started than off of the bench, so keep the sample size in mind.
Okafor has 34 games to his credit on ESPN, here are his Per 48#s for comparisons sake: 7.4-14.4FGM-A 51.170 FG% 3.5-6.6FTM-A 53.205FT% 1.44 Steals 2.62 blocks 2.4TOs 4.5Fouls 4.8Orebs 9.9Drebs 14.6 Total Rebounds 0.9 Assists 18.3Points
Okafor's per 48--same 5 game stretch in January:7.1-13.6 FGM-A 52.381 FG% 1.9-3.9FTM-A 50.00FT% 1.30Steals 2.92Blocks 2.9Tos 5.5Fouls 3.2Orebs 9.4Drebs 12.6Total Rebs 1.3Assists 16.2Points
So Emeka is shooting less over the January stretch than on average, both from the stripe and the field. Only his FG%, Assists and blocks are up (slightly more tos and fouls too). I would definitely say he's in a slump. Outside of blocks and assists, Mohammed is besting Okafor in everything (worth noting, more TOs and fouls than Okafor as well). As a Bobcat, Mohammed has surpassed Okafor's offensive numbers and he's out-rebounded him. These statistics show that Okafor has only been better at blocking and controlling his TOs and fouls.
With Emeka and Primoz, the Bobcats were 8-13 (38.09%)
With Emeka and Nazr, the Bobcats are 5-9 (38.46%)
So even if we consider Okafor's slump to be for the entirety of Mohammed's campaign, we're winning slightly more games on average, so what is the rush to trade him? We are, I think everyone would agree, an unquestionably better team WITH Okafor AND Mohammed than with Okafor/Brezec or Okafor alone. Further, except for Okafor's second, injury prone season, his PER has been better than Mohammed's every year, including this one. PER is a metric that weighs the impact a certain player makes on his team as far as offensive efficiency and rebounding are concerned. Only 11 other teams have 2 big men with higher PERs than ours (PHX, WAS, DET, GSW, MIA,MIN, NOR, CHI, BOS, TOR and DAL). NYK actually have 3, but herein lies the analysis of the stat, because the Bobcats have a higher Team Defensive Efficiency rating than Minnesota, NYK and GSW. Also to consider, we would agree that Okafor has been less of a defensive presence this season than in his others, where we hovered around the 20th "best" defensive efficiency, which this year would catapult us ahead of Miami and Phoenix as well.
The point? We have 2 good all around post players and only 7 other teams can say the same.
So really, WHY would you trade that?
Because he rejected his extension and is an RFA this summer? Okafor's extension decline is good for us, Bowz. No one has cap room this offseason. The 76ers? Really, with Dalembert already signed they're going to get in a bidding war with us over Okafor? No. Okafor will either have to take the MLE from a team of his choice, resign what we offer him (unlikely), or take the tender offer and try his hand at being a UFA in the next offseason where teams are trying to free up cap room already because of LeBron, Wade, and Melo.
Because maybe we can make the playoffs if we do a deal before the deadline and go on a run? Reality:No playoffs in 07-08, maybe next year. This sucks, but we have a 10% chance with the team we already have and the best we can likely do is something like 45-37, and that's extremely unlikely. Or projected wins right now are 30-42. We can get to this later though (and I want to), but it probably doesn't matter who we add to the squad between now and April 16, either. Assume we do land one of the players better than Okafor. There are only 33 big man players that would rank ahead of Okafor at this time and again, a number of them are not nearly as good as Emeka had been before this season at defense (which you claim wins championships).
Amare, KG, Dwight, Bosh, Nowitzki, Ming, Jefferson, Bynum, Marion, Jamison, West, Haywood, Biedrins, Aldridge, Gasol, Kaman, S. O'Neal, Camby, Chandler, David Lee, Maxiell, Ilgauskas, Noah, Rasheed Wallace, Glen Davis, Al Harrington, Chris Wilcox, Sean Williams.
Between Emeka and Mohammed lie: Randolph, Curry, Dalembert, Craig Smith, Brad Miller, Kris Humphries, Zo, and Dampier.
I see the majority of those players as untradeable or a lateral move on our part, but list the players you think we could realistically target and I'll work with you to see what types of packages we could put together and then we'll put them on the trade board to see what other Realgmers think.
-PG play
-Vincent
-Skill Regression
Regardless of those theories, the main sentiment behind the "TRADE OKAFOR" sentiment stems from 1 argument "Mohammed has immediately become better than Okafor", so that's what I want to discuss.
Mohammed per 48, 5 starts (2-3 record): 9.7-16.6FGM-A 58.182 FG% 2.4-4.5 FTM-A 53.333FT% 1.81Steals 2.42Blocks 4.2TOs 5.4PFs 5.7OREB 12.1DREB 17.8TOTAL 1.8 Assist 21.7 Points
Mohammed per 48 1st 5 games (until ESPN updates) 10.6-18.5FGM-A 57.50 FG% 3.7-7.4 FTM-A 50.000FT% 1.85 Steals 1.38Blocks 4.2TOs 9.2Fouls 4.2Orebs 11.1Drebs 15.2Total 1.8 assist 24.9 points
Off of the bench Mohammed has been more aggressive than when he started. He's scoring more points (on more shots) but also has 1.5 x more fouls (on less blocks, which says to me he's either assuming his role<backup big w/fouls to give> or going after shots and fouling instead of getting the block). He rebounded more as a starter too, but we're really not going to know too much from this because he also got more total minutes when he started than off of the bench, so keep the sample size in mind.
Okafor has 34 games to his credit on ESPN, here are his Per 48#s for comparisons sake: 7.4-14.4FGM-A 51.170 FG% 3.5-6.6FTM-A 53.205FT% 1.44 Steals 2.62 blocks 2.4TOs 4.5Fouls 4.8Orebs 9.9Drebs 14.6 Total Rebounds 0.9 Assists 18.3Points
Okafor's per 48--same 5 game stretch in January:7.1-13.6 FGM-A 52.381 FG% 1.9-3.9FTM-A 50.00FT% 1.30Steals 2.92Blocks 2.9Tos 5.5Fouls 3.2Orebs 9.4Drebs 12.6Total Rebs 1.3Assists 16.2Points
So Emeka is shooting less over the January stretch than on average, both from the stripe and the field. Only his FG%, Assists and blocks are up (slightly more tos and fouls too). I would definitely say he's in a slump. Outside of blocks and assists, Mohammed is besting Okafor in everything (worth noting, more TOs and fouls than Okafor as well). As a Bobcat, Mohammed has surpassed Okafor's offensive numbers and he's out-rebounded him. These statistics show that Okafor has only been better at blocking and controlling his TOs and fouls.
With Emeka and Primoz, the Bobcats were 8-13 (38.09%)
With Emeka and Nazr, the Bobcats are 5-9 (38.46%)
So even if we consider Okafor's slump to be for the entirety of Mohammed's campaign, we're winning slightly more games on average, so what is the rush to trade him? We are, I think everyone would agree, an unquestionably better team WITH Okafor AND Mohammed than with Okafor/Brezec or Okafor alone. Further, except for Okafor's second, injury prone season, his PER has been better than Mohammed's every year, including this one. PER is a metric that weighs the impact a certain player makes on his team as far as offensive efficiency and rebounding are concerned. Only 11 other teams have 2 big men with higher PERs than ours (PHX, WAS, DET, GSW, MIA,MIN, NOR, CHI, BOS, TOR and DAL). NYK actually have 3, but herein lies the analysis of the stat, because the Bobcats have a higher Team Defensive Efficiency rating than Minnesota, NYK and GSW. Also to consider, we would agree that Okafor has been less of a defensive presence this season than in his others, where we hovered around the 20th "best" defensive efficiency, which this year would catapult us ahead of Miami and Phoenix as well.
The point? We have 2 good all around post players and only 7 other teams can say the same.
So really, WHY would you trade that?
Because he rejected his extension and is an RFA this summer? Okafor's extension decline is good for us, Bowz. No one has cap room this offseason. The 76ers? Really, with Dalembert already signed they're going to get in a bidding war with us over Okafor? No. Okafor will either have to take the MLE from a team of his choice, resign what we offer him (unlikely), or take the tender offer and try his hand at being a UFA in the next offseason where teams are trying to free up cap room already because of LeBron, Wade, and Melo.
Because maybe we can make the playoffs if we do a deal before the deadline and go on a run? Reality:No playoffs in 07-08, maybe next year. This sucks, but we have a 10% chance with the team we already have and the best we can likely do is something like 45-37, and that's extremely unlikely. Or projected wins right now are 30-42. We can get to this later though (and I want to), but it probably doesn't matter who we add to the squad between now and April 16, either. Assume we do land one of the players better than Okafor. There are only 33 big man players that would rank ahead of Okafor at this time and again, a number of them are not nearly as good as Emeka had been before this season at defense (which you claim wins championships).
Amare, KG, Dwight, Bosh, Nowitzki, Ming, Jefferson, Bynum, Marion, Jamison, West, Haywood, Biedrins, Aldridge, Gasol, Kaman, S. O'Neal, Camby, Chandler, David Lee, Maxiell, Ilgauskas, Noah, Rasheed Wallace, Glen Davis, Al Harrington, Chris Wilcox, Sean Williams.
Between Emeka and Mohammed lie: Randolph, Curry, Dalembert, Craig Smith, Brad Miller, Kris Humphries, Zo, and Dampier.
I see the majority of those players as untradeable or a lateral move on our part, but list the players you think we could realistically target and I'll work with you to see what types of packages we could put together and then we'll put them on the trade board to see what other Realgmers think.
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spectre_
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I'm very leary of letting Mek get to the qualifying offer stage. From that point on he can nix any trade and more than likely won't retain any "happy thoughts" with the organization. I'm also worried about the offseason when the Bobcats whack about 3 million per year off their previous offer...can't see Mek or his agent being happy about that.
Nazr isn't "better", he's more experienced and knows how to position himself. We have 2 bigs where one is a damn fine defensive player and another who has the knowledge to be very effective offensively. I'm with Fats that we really need to work to get the two playing together where we can combine their strengths.
I blame John Blair.
Nazr isn't "better", he's more experienced and knows how to position himself. We have 2 bigs where one is a damn fine defensive player and another who has the knowledge to be very effective offensively. I'm with Fats that we really need to work to get the two playing together where we can combine their strengths.
I blame John Blair.
RaptorJ wrote:they (Bobcats' fans) seem to be some of the least intelligent posters on RealGM from some of the trash they say.
Irony
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Walt Cronkite
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W_HAMILTON
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I don't see why we have to get the two "working together." Like I said before, they should just use them in a "combo-guard" type rotation, with Okafor/Wallace starting, Nazr coming off the bench to replace Okafor, then Okafor coming off the bench to replace Wallace at PF for a few minutes, playing alongside Nazr, before bringing Wallace back in for Nazr, reverting back to the starting lineup. You basically play three players at two positions, an average of 32 minutes/game per player, which is enough for the three of them. Maybe slightly fewer minutes for Mohammed, and slightly more for Okafor/Wallace, or slightly fewer minutes for Okafor and slightly more for Mohammed/Wallace, depending on which is playing better that night.
It's probably not a surprise that our offense started to look better once we switched from Mohammed/Okafor starting, and let Okafor play center and Wallace play PF. Wallace has begun to create more for other players, and he can probably get away with it because he's going against more PF-types instead of SF types. Sure, he turns the ball over a lot, but that's because that's not normally one part of his game; even with all the turnovers, we've been more successful lately, and our offense has improved, so I'd rather take it than scoring 79 points with fewer turnovers, which still would equal a loss.
It's probably not a surprise that our offense started to look better once we switched from Mohammed/Okafor starting, and let Okafor play center and Wallace play PF. Wallace has begun to create more for other players, and he can probably get away with it because he's going against more PF-types instead of SF types. Sure, he turns the ball over a lot, but that's because that's not normally one part of his game; even with all the turnovers, we've been more successful lately, and our offense has improved, so I'd rather take it than scoring 79 points with fewer turnovers, which still would equal a loss.
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DaBassSource
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Actually from what my eyes tell me ...Nazr is 'Better". Mek is more athletic which allows him to get rebounds and blockshots...well not just athletic but he has those skills, but over all skill has to go to Nazr he does most things better or equal to Mek...plus being more experienced can make you "better". Now if you said Mek had more potential then maybe...but that is a real "Maybe"...with that being said I have always said Mek should be here but he has his place....spectre_ wrote:I'm very leary of letting Mek get to the qualifying offer stage. From that point on he can nix any trade and more than likely won't retain any "happy thoughts" with the organization. I'm also worried about the offseason when the Bobcats whack about 3 million per year off their previous offer...can't see Mek or his agent being happy about that.
Nazr isn't "better", he's more experienced and knows how to position himself. We have 2 bigs where one is a damn fine defensive player and another who has the knowledge to be very effective offensively. I'm with Fats that we really need to work to get the two playing together where we can combine their strengths.
I blame John Blair.