The "Dude": The Mitch Kupchak Thread

[Braggins]

I'm not ready to say his drafting is bad. Its certainly better than Cho, who basically whiffed on every pick except Kemba, but I don't think I can say its that good at this point.

In the LaMelo draft they were going to take whoever fell out of the consensus top 3, so its hard to give him a ton of credit for that pick even though it did end with the team having the first franchise cornerstone level talent in the Horncats era.

Miles was a good pickup, but they had the better player in SGA under their control and traded him for a lesser player. Not going to blame the recent events with Miles on Mitch, but it probably should count a tiny bit that his off-court situation has turned that pick into basically a zero value gain in the long term.

PJ was a good pick all-around. Nothing negative to say there.

Graham and Martin are his two second round successes, but Graham isn't actually good and just had a half season stretch that convinced people he was and Mitch was able to parlay that into the only good trade hes made since hes been here.

My issue with his drafting is that I just can't help but not dock him several points for the 2021 draft. It was one of the most stacked drafts in recent memory and they had 11 + 19 in the 1st round and two 2nds and basically completely whiffed and came out of the draft with basically no value. Passing on Sengun when the teams biggest need was a center for arguably the most overrated lottery rated prospect who was basically a lesser version of a player they already had and could have just resigned for cheap (Monk, yes I will die on the hill they should have kept him) was an absolute disaster. Then trading a future 1st for another top 20 pick and using it on a guy who should have went in the 2nd round when there were also obviously much better prospects on the board (Isaiah Jackson, for instance) was also really bad.

I also consider the horrible trade from this years draft as part of his drafting capability. If Duren ends up being the best center prospect and any of the decent wing prospects taken after 15 end up being good, most notably Eason, then this will be another draft that will be considered an absolute disaster and the trade was terrible value even if all the other factors mentioned don't end up playing out that badly.

Once you get past the drafting and look at the rest of his track record here, its basically abysmal.

I don't give him credit for avoiding paying Kemba. That only looked good in hindsight because Kembas body immediately completely betrayed him, which shouldn't have been something that was assumed to happen considering he had been an iron man the last few years and barely missed a game or even had a minor injury. It seemed clear at the time that they just never had a plan for how to deal with the situation and refused to trade him when they could have gotten value out of him. It worked out because Kemba's injuries made it seem liked they dodged a bullet, but I don't think health/injury concerns had anything to do with the way they handled his situation.

Then you have stuff like the Hayward signing*, bringing in guys like Oubre, Harrell, and IT, going into another season with Plumlee as the starting center, and rehiring Clifford...

* - Edit: I forgot the Batum stretch lol

[JDR720]

With any GM we have, it's hard to know what is their doing and what is influenced by MJ meddling.

Mitch's drafting has been acceptable I think, bordering on good.

Melo was obvious, but making the obvious pick is a good thing.
Miles is solid. Yes SGA is better, but Miles would've still been an all-star if he didn't go berserk.
PJ is solid. Herro was drafted right after him, who is better. Don't think that is any different than Miles/SGA.

And then it started going downhill.

Bouknight was probably a reach, and he basically was a Monk clone who we just let leave for nothing. If he doesn't average 12-15ppg this season on good %, I'd trade him.
Kai was a swing for the fences trade, but he is so raw. Even today. High likelihood of a bust. He's just dumb.

I think his record in the 2nd round is good.

Both Martin's are solid contributors. That's all you can ask for in a 2nd round pick. Should've kept Caleb.
Graham was solid and contributed.
Thor still has some potential, at least on defense.
Richards is maybe solid, so he could be a good 2nd rounder still.

So, overall good record in the 2nd round, 3/5 in the 1st round. Overall, I'd say it's a solid B.

Mixed record on trades. Getting stuff for Graham was great. The Kai trade might turn out dumb. This drafts trade might turn out even dumber. Sign&Trading Kemba for Rozier worked well. Getting Plumlee for nothing was solid.

But the free agency has been a disaster. We haven't signed a single free agent contributor that didn't drive us nuts. Cap management has been horrible too. Batum stretch for Gordon *bleh*. Rozier's extension, at the time at least, is an overpay. Especially when we just drafted Bouknight.

We're doing what we've always done. Try to rebuild and contend at the same time. So, I think a lot of it is MJ. Not whoever the GM is. Because the issues are largely the same. Cho was just better at signing cheap veterans (McBob, Marvin etc.) and Mitch is better at drafting.

[Braggins]

Bouknight was probably a reach, and he basically was a Monk clone who we just let leave for nothing. If he doesn't average 12-15ppg this season on good %, I'd trade him.

Monk's age 22 season he put up 12 ppg on 43/40/82 shooting splits, despite looking temporarily like a shell of himself athletically that season after his covid bout, and everyone insisted he was garbage and it was a good idea to let him walk instead of paying him like 5 million or whatever it would have cost to get him to not go to LA.

[Snidely FC]

anyone think Kupchak notices the team still needs a backup PG

[fatlever]

I'm with Braggins as you all are aware. I'm not impressed with mitch, and I think our entire front office needs a complete overhaul. I can't put all of it on Mitch because I know Jordan's hands are all over this, as usual.

I've made my feelings on this subject fairly well known, especially what I thought to be a disaster of a summer in 2021, other than the Devante Graham trade. The summer of 2021 can only be topped by the disastrous summer of 2022.

2021. Wasted 27 mil of cap on Ish, oubre and Mason. Failed to address our biggest needs - a starting center, a legit backup pg with size, point of attack defenders and wing defenders.. A black hole of leadership on the roster. Extended Terry too early. Extended JB too early.

2022, what else needs to be said...

In terms of his drafting, I pretty much agree with everything braggins said.

In 2018 and 2019 he had a pretty decent drafts, at least by Hornets standards. But let's not forget he had the opportunity for SGA and chose miles which in hindsight was the wrong decision. PJ is solid for his draft spot. He made up for that somewhat in the second round in both years where we snagged graham, mcdaniels, and Cody martin. That was good work. It's been all downhill from there.

If we had been picking number two in 2020, how many people here think there's at least a 50% chance we would have taken Wiseman over lamelo? I have a hard time giving him credit for that one since it landed in his lap. At least he didn't try to trade down. But don't forget what happened in the second round where we picked Vernon, Nick richards, and Riler.

2021 and 2022 drafts have been brutal... but some hope for Mark. The trade of the 13th pick was a bad decision. I won't rehash it all.



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[Braggins]

If we had been picking number two in 2020, how many people here think there's at least a 50% chance we would have taken Wiseman over lamelo? I have a hard time giving him credit for that one since it landed in his lap. At least he didn't try to trade down. But don't forget what happened in the second round where we picked Vernon, Nick richards, and Riler.

I was completely baffled by the top 3 of that draft despite doing a lot of research on it. Ant and LaMelo both seemed like nut jobs and were inefficient and played way out of control in their most recent organized play experience. Wiseman was a complete mystery box. I leaned towards Wiseman out of the top 3 because he seemed liked he had the best attitude and intelligence of the top 3 and also had good physical tools, but I was open about having very little confidence about what the right play was and I think I preferred trading back for Haliburton or Okongwu (I had a pretty good read after the top 3 imo).

LaMelo and Ant also both turned out to be a lot better out of the gate than anyone expected. Even all the draft guys who had LaMelo ranked first considered he (and all the top 3) to be big development projects. There was one dude on this board (I think 316Hornets) who kept insisting that LaMelo's rookie season impact/stats would be closer to Luka than they would be to how terribly everyone on here was projecting him and we all mocked him lol. I think the consensus was that hed average at most like 12/5/5 and would be lucky to be over 40% from the field and 30% from 3pt. Whoever it was never came back to make anyone eat crow lol.

[amcoolio]

I don't mind Miles over SGA because we had a point at the time and point guards are easier to find in this era than Miles Bridges types. Just rank all the point guards in the league, out of the 30 teams, probably 18-20 are satisfied with who they have, mental issues withstanding.

PJ and Herro will have similar careers, Herro is just in a more sexy location.

Bouknight was not my first choice but he does have good scoring ability, and is much bigger than Monk. I wouldn't write him off.

Kai at 19 isn't that bad, he's a swing for the fences pick. Ya'll know I wanted Jackson over him though, and Jackson has shown more promise so far.

Trading 13 for a likely 18-24 pick a year later is really dumb. Just take Duren, hold his rights and wait for Detroit to offer something desperate. We could have gotten Stewart or something out of the deal.

I have to wonder if we didn't get lucky and move up for LaMelo, if we would have had Cade/Mobley/Green/Barnes, and/or Paolo/Chet/Jabari/Ivey/Murray/Mathurin. Becuase I think we would have been bad without LaMelo the last two years. How many of you would trade our complete situation for Indy or Detroit? If Indy gets Ayton, I think they are definitely ahead of the Hornets, now and for the future. Mathurin is going to be a star. I'm pretty sure I would trade rosters immediately with Indiana.

It's definitely looking grim lately, but that's life being a Charlotte sports fan.

[fatlever]

Honestly, it's hard to think of a franchise right now that has a worse future outlook. We have 1 valuable asset.

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[HornetJail]

Honestly, it's hard to think of a franchise right now that has a worse future outlook. We have 1 valuable asset.

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Washington without hesitation.

they are about to find out what happens to Charlotte if we had given Kemba the 5/170 he wanted and not tanked and gotten LaMelo.

The Miles situation is so incredibly deflating but most teams do NOT have a 20-year-old All-Star PG to build around. That alone saves us from rock bottom.

[Braggins]

Yeah, I'd say Washington is worse off. I agree they shouldn't have paid Beal, but I think their situation has just as much to do with them taking a bunch of low upside picks in the lottery.

[amcoolio]

That's why I'm leaning on tanking and resetting the year (I know we won't). Scoot and LaMelo would be dynamic, Victor is an ultimate prize, Whitehead is a dynamic big guard with size and a sweet shooting stroke, and Mitchell would make us forget about Miles very quickly. Let LaMelo put up ridiculous stats with high usage and try to get assets for Hayward and/or Rozier, and claim the year was lost because of Miles' antics

[HornetJail]

Yeah, I'd say Washington is worse off. I agree they shouldn't have paid Beal, but I think their situation has just as much to do with them taking a bunch of low upside picks in the lottery.

so, the Kemba era Hornets

[Bassman]

Honestly, it's hard to think of a franchise right now that has a worse future outlook. We have 1 valuable asset.

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It is depressing to see how little progress we ACTUALLY have made verses what we anticipated from the potential. Granted, Miles self immolation took away our next most valuable player, but so many of our youth/picks are stuck in neutral….why? Also what happens to those who were here but move on? Their development here versus elsewhere. Monk is a wild card, maybe a head case, but he performed better while setting up for a good payday. Heck even Vern got highlights from his SL play yesterday with quality scoring and rebounding.

I know…it’s just Summer League.

But our team MUST get results from our investments. Bouknight really needs to be given some significant opportunities and minutes. If he flops…join the club, but I think his skill set can deliver us a strong player. Mark Williams is young but he will be fine with time and experience. Kai, Thor, Lewis, et all…work on your game; let’s HOPE this team can help you become a true NBA player.

[fatlever]

I'll give you Washington

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[yosemiteben]

We've drafted 5 guys in the last 2 seasons. Doesn't feel like the right time to be complaining about us having a lack of assets when we haven't really had an opportunity to gain a firm understanding of what value our guys have.

[JMAC3]

Realistically it does kinda suck to be where we are at because I think we were ready to be more aggressive and add a Veteran, but Miles situation really messed up and now we are stuck feeling like we are in the middle.

Pacers have done a great job of rebuilding quickly, but still not sure if they land Ayton. Need to see what happens there.

I would still take LaMelo, our young pieces over Wiz, Knicks, Utah, Spurs, Lakers, and honestly the most surprising one the Bulls.

Bulls are better than us, but I think I would rather have LaMelo alone over aging Derozan, overpaid Lavine, Injured Lonzo and underperforming PatWill.

I think it is important to remember just how young LaMelo is.... he is 20. He turns 21 the same time Mitchell turns 26, Young turns 24.

If the best option is tank and then have a top 5 pick running mate to go with 22 year old LaMelo that's not the worst thing.

[Braggins]

Also what happens to those who were here but move on? Their development here versus elsewhere. Monk is a wild card, maybe a head case, but he performed better while setting up for a good payday.

Monk was starting to make progress here under JB and after he started taking his career seriously. He was clearly not himself physically his last season here because of getting covid and he still put up nice numbers and was pretty useful. I think that if he had stayed here his stats last season would have been a decent amount better than they were in LA.

He got more minutes in LA than he ever got here, but he actually had lower usage there than he did his last season here and the LA offense was a mess most of the time because of Westbrook. The Hornets the last two seasons with LaMelo/Hayward has been basically the dream scenario for a player of his archetype to put up good stats and Monk continued progressing and looked more athletic than ever. If he had Oubres minutes/role last season I think he likely would have put up similar scoring numbers as him but with way better efficiency and twice as many assists.

I watched at least 40+ Lakers games last season and Monk made some decent all-around progress with his game, but the physical difference was glaring and really affected his game more than anything. Its glaringly obvious in the stats as well.

season: minutes - dunks - 2pt fg% - fg% (0-3 feet)

19/20: 1169 - 27 - 54.2% - 67.1%
20/21: 878 - 8 - 47.1% - 57.2%
21/22: 2139 - 54 - 56.8% - 72.5%

I literally saw a poster from this board claim on the GB that Monk lost all his athleticism because of rampant drug abuse and laziness lol.

[SWedd523]

Monk was a guy who clearly did not want to be in Charlotte. Did not have the maturity to compete against a clearly better player, and self-sabotaged himself with drug use.

I was a fan of the pick at the time, but I'm glad he's no longer around this team. He has a loser mentality. The decision to move on was the correct one.

[fatlever]

Read on Twitter

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mitch has been in hiding since the Kenny debacle

[fatlever]