Return to Sender: The Mark Williams Thread

[NCHeels2008]

Mark to Duren comp so far. Duren averages are not much better than Mark considering he is playing 2x the minutes.

Mark is crushing him on per36 numbers
https://stathead.com/tiny/4qqRC

The comparisons are highly misleading as Duren plays a lot of minutes vs starting centers recently while Mark gets to destroy backups that are often times not even real centers.

But I'm nothing short of thrilled what Mark has shown so far. It's what you expect from a 7'2 guy with good hands, good mobility and coordination. I can't believe how lucky we are that either one of them fell to #13/#15, let alone had our choice of both.Thought for sure some combo of SAS/WAS/OKC were going to snatch those two up.

Duren has played a lot vs backups as well. He has started 16/41 games.

What was the final tally in what we traded that pick away for? like a late late 1st (DEN/MIL?) and 3 crappy 2s?

[luciano-davidwesley]

The comparisons are highly misleading as Duren plays a lot of minutes vs starting centers recently while Mark gets to destroy backups that are often times not even real centers.

But I'm nothing short of thrilled what Mark has shown so far. It's what you expect from a 7'2 guy with good hands, good mobility and coordination. I can't believe how lucky we are that either one of them fell to #13/#15, let alone had our choice of both.Thought for sure some combo of SAS/WAS/OKC were going to snatch those two up.

Duren has played a lot vs backups as well. He has started 16/41 games.

What was the final tally in what we traded that pick away for? like a late late 1st (DEN/MIL?) and 3 crappy 2s?

Yes. Because Kupchak

[Braggins]

Denver pick is currently 29th lol.

I like Mark Williams game a lot and have no issue with taking him over Duren. That trade was still horrible. They should have Mark + Eason/Griffin/Ogbaji.

[Hornet Mania]

Denver pick is currently 29th lol.

I like Mark Williams game a lot and have no issue with taking him over Duren. That trade was still horrible. They should have Mark + Eason/Griffin/Ogbaji.

Yeah, the front office screwed the pooch on this one. Once they knew both Duren and Williams were available at 13 they had two clear options for how to proceed:

1. If you intend to keep both picks, select a wing at 13 and whoever remains between Duren/Williams at 15.
2. If you do not intend to keep both picks (what Mitch claims) then you must be prepared to kick the can down the road by trading 13 for a future pick(s) that have a realistic shot to land in the teens in a future draft.

Mitch got caught flat-footed. Trading has always been his weakest aspect, at least during his Hornets tenure, and it bit us in the butt on draft night. Mitch is not a man who is comfortable wheeling and dealing as the clock is ticking, he works at a methodical (some would say lethargic) pace and can't be sped up at all.

[yosemiteben]

Denver pick is currently 29th lol.

I like Mark Williams game a lot and have no issue with taking him over Duren. That trade was still horrible. They should have Mark + Eason/Griffin/Ogbaji.

Not saying I love the trade, but the fact that we also used pieces of it to move up and take McGowens has me less grumpy about it lately.

[JMAC3]

Could this trade have worked out any worse for the Hornets?

There are so many layers to the deal that are already forgotten.

1. Doing the deal, squashed cap space for Detroit and made signing Miles Bridges pretty much impossible. 13.3 million between Duren and Kemba.

2. It made signing Miles Bridges easier for Hornets because they saved 4.1 million by not having to pay Duren or 13th pick giving us more room under Lux Tax.

3. It let us kick the can down the road into the following season where we may not have had a pick (Kai trade). If Miles was back and we stayed healthy, not sure the protection of top 16 was guaranteed to stand.

4. We got Denver first, Utah 23second, Knicks seconds in 23 and 24 and Dallas 23 2nd. Mitch probably assumed Utah 2nd would be a top 5 pick in the 2nd after dealing Rudy and Donovan. If the Denver pick was 20-24 I think deal would have been fine.

5. Assuming Miles was on the team, even if we were play in level we would still have Denver pick we could trade at deadline for an upgrade over Oubre, Plumlee or Gordon.

I think Mitch was trying to keep flexibility, but in the end so much went wrong with team that it got lost in the shuffle. If Hornets didn't have Denver pick and we wanted to make a move the soonest pick we could offer would be our 2025 first, seems gross to think about. I still prefer to trade Denver pick rather than select a player with it.

[yosemiteben]

Meh, not feeling most of that.

(1) You don't trade down and give a superior prospect to another team in hopes that you tie up their cap space and thus they can't sign your guy in FA. Bad business. If motivated, they can find a way to clear salary, you can't predict how that will go down and I think that's a pretty bad reason to do a move like this.

(2) I guess, but trading out and down to free up cap space really just shows you **** up your contracts. Not that hard to create space, particularly last year where we had options, particularly with Oubre.

(3) Bird in hand - saying let's pass on a first now so we have one next year, particularly where you are firing your coach because you are all in on the playoffs the next year, seems like a questionable strategy to me. I also think, if that was the motivation, it wouldn't have been hard to do a 1st for top 10 protected 1st for a team less obviously positioned to be a competitor.

(4) I do think the 2nds have value, particularly in light of McGowens, and I do think that gets lost in hindsight reflections on the deal, but that doesn't change it to a good deal IMO.

(5) Same with a lotto prospect. This argument does nothing for me.

[JMAC3]

Meh, not feeling most of that.

(1) You don't trade down and give a superior prospect to another team in hopes that you tie up their cap space and thus they can't sign your guy in FA. Bad business. If motivated, they can find a way to clear salary, you can't predict how that will go down and I think that's a pretty bad reason to do a move like this.

(2) I guess, but trading out and down to free up cap space really just shows you **** up your contracts. Not that hard to create space, particularly last year where we had options, particularly with Oubre.

(3) Bird in hand - saying let's pass on a first now so we have one next year, particularly where you are firing your coach because you are all in on the playoffs the next year, seems like a questionable strategy to me. I also think, if that was the motivation, it wouldn't have been hard to do a 1st for top 10 protected 1st for a team less obviously positioned to be a competitor.

(4) I do think the 2nds have value, particularly in light of McGowens, and I do think that gets lost in hindsight reflections on the deal, but that doesn't change it to a good deal IMO.

(5) Same with a lotto prospect. This argument does nothing for me.

If we had picked Aj Griffin and Miles was back he would of been barely playing. The front office didn't expect the whole team to be hurt and Bridges to be out of the league when they made the trade.

[JMAC3]

If we had picked Aj Griffin and Miles was back he would of been barely playing. The front office didn't expect the whole team to be hurt and Bridges to be out of the league when they made the trade.

They were probably assuming Bouk and Kai would be better and earn minutes. Assuming they were actually improving and playing and Griffin would have even less opportunity.

but yes, Miles is gone. Bouk sucks. Kai sucks. Martin hurt. Gordon hurt. LaMelo hurt. Oubre hurt.

Cleary the front office should have seen that all coming and selected AJ Griffin knowing he would get 20 mpg this year.

[Braggins]

Hayward is aging out and unlikely to be resigned and they may not have wanted to keep McDaniels if they were tying up money on Miles + PJ (Hayward being injured also isn't a surprise). Oubre also shouldn't be here after this season. There were going to be plenty of wing minutes opening up over the next couple seasons and having another cost controlled wing capable of contributing would be very valuable in just about any scenario you can imagine.

This trade signals to me that other front offices have very little respect for the Hornets front office. It seems wild that this trade would have even been proposed by the Detroit side because its such an obviously absurd lowball. I would expect to get hung up on with that offer. Maybe I'm underestimating how much teams mess with each with other with dumb offers, though.

[NCHeels2008]

If we had picked Aj Griffin and Miles was back he would of been barely playing. The front office didn't expect the whole team to be hurt and Bridges to be out of the league when they made the trade.

They were probably assuming Bouk and Kai would be better and earn minutes. Assuming they were actually improving and playing and Griffin would have even less opportunity.

but yes, Miles is gone. Bouk sucks. Kai sucks. Martin hurt. Gordon hurt. LaMelo hurt. Oubre hurt.

Cleary the front office should have seen that all coming and selected AJ Griffin knowing he would get 20 mpg this year.

better to bury a lotto pick on the bench as insurance than dump it for a late 20s pick the next year and a raft of middling 2nds

[yosemiteben]

Meh, not feeling most of that.

(1) You don't trade down and give a superior prospect to another team in hopes that you tie up their cap space and thus they can't sign your guy in FA. Bad business. If motivated, they can find a way to clear salary, you can't predict how that will go down and I think that's a pretty bad reason to do a move like this.

(2) I guess, but trading out and down to free up cap space really just shows you **** up your contracts. Not that hard to create space, particularly last year where we had options, particularly with Oubre.

(3) Bird in hand - saying let's pass on a first now so we have one next year, particularly where you are firing your coach because you are all in on the playoffs the next year, seems like a questionable strategy to me. I also think, if that was the motivation, it wouldn't have been hard to do a 1st for top 10 protected 1st for a team less obviously positioned to be a competitor.

(4) I do think the 2nds have value, particularly in light of McGowens, and I do think that gets lost in hindsight reflections on the deal, but that doesn't change it to a good deal IMO.

(5) Same with a lotto prospect. This argument does nothing for me.

If we had picked Aj Griffin and Miles was back he would of been barely playing. The front office didn't expect the whole team to be hurt and Bridges to be out of the league when they made the trade.

Ok? Which of your defenses is this supposed to apply to and why are you only picking one guy to focus on?

[JMAC3]

Hayward is aging out and unlikely to be resigned and they may not have wanted to keep McDaniels if they were tying up money on Miles + PJ (Hayward being injured also isn't a surprise). Oubre also shouldn't be here after this season. There were going to be plenty of wing minutes opening up over the next couple seasons and having another cost controlled wing capable of contributing would be very valuable in just about any scenario you can imagine.

This trade signals to me that other front offices have very little respect for the Hornets front office. It seems wild that this trade would have even been proposed by the Detroit side because its such an obviously absurd lowball. I would expect to get hung up on with that offer. Maybe I'm underestimating how much teams mess with each with other with dumb offers, though.

They probably thought it would be fine to select a wing to replace Oubre/Hayward/McDaniels whoever with the Nuggets pick in this years draft and have an extra year of control and more immediate minutes as a rookie.

vs drafting one in last years draft when minutes were going to be tough to find. Plus as a I mentioned they probably were thinking they might not have a pick in this upcoming draft as it is owed to Spurs.

The thought process isn't the worst thing ever, just unfortunate things went sideways and because of that it makes it look awful in hindsight.

[JMAC3]

Meh, not feeling most of that.

(1) You don't trade down and give a superior prospect to another team in hopes that you tie up their cap space and thus they can't sign your guy in FA. Bad business. If motivated, they can find a way to clear salary, you can't predict how that will go down and I think that's a pretty bad reason to do a move like this.

(2) I guess, but trading out and down to free up cap space really just shows you **** up your contracts. Not that hard to create space, particularly last year where we had options, particularly with Oubre.

(3) Bird in hand - saying let's pass on a first now so we have one next year, particularly where you are firing your coach because you are all in on the playoffs the next year, seems like a questionable strategy to me. I also think, if that was the motivation, it wouldn't have been hard to do a 1st for top 10 protected 1st for a team less obviously positioned to be a competitor.

(4) I do think the 2nds have value, particularly in light of McGowens, and I do think that gets lost in hindsight reflections on the deal, but that doesn't change it to a good deal IMO.

(5) Same with a lotto prospect. This argument does nothing for me.

If we had picked Aj Griffin and Miles was back he would of been barely playing. The front office didn't expect the whole team to be hurt and Bridges to be out of the league when they made the trade.

Ok? Which of your defenses is this supposed to apply to and why are you only picking one guy to focus on?

I could focus on Tari Eason too..

We thought Miles, PJ, McDaniels, Thor, Kai were all going to get minutes at the 4 this upcoming season.

[yosemiteben]

If we had picked Aj Griffin and Miles was back he would of been barely playing. The front office didn't expect the whole team to be hurt and Bridges to be out of the league when they made the trade.

Ok? Which of your defenses is this supposed to apply to and why are you only picking one guy to focus on?

I could focus on Tari Eason too..

We thought Miles, PJ, McDaniels, Thor, Kai were all going to get minutes at the 4 this upcoming season.

Not being a dick, but did you answer my question?

This also seems super desperate. You can't convince me that we needed to pass because we had too much wing depth. There's no such thing, and you don't stop rolling the dice because you have Thor or Kai on the roster. I like those guys, but I'm not passing on a lotto pick for a guaranteed non lotto pick because I'm worried about having too much wing depth.

[fatlever]

no competent gm should have expected thor or kai to be rotational pieces on a team trying to win.

[yosemiteben]

FWIW, I would've drafted Duren and Williams and cut Richards before doing the deal we did.

[JMAC3]

Ok? Which of your defenses is this supposed to apply to and why are you only picking one guy to focus on?

I could focus on Tari Eason too..

We thought Miles, PJ, McDaniels, Thor, Kai were all going to get minutes at the 4 this upcoming season.

Not being a dick, but did you answer my question?

This also seems super desperate. You can't convince me that we needed to pass because we had too much wing depth. There's no such thing, and you don't stop rolling the dice because you have Thor or Kai on the roster. I like those guys, but I'm not passing on a lotto pick for a guaranteed non lotto pick because I'm worried about having too much wing depth.

I don't think the depth thing alone is the reason we passed, probably one of 5 of the reasons I listed.

As I mentioned I doubt Hornets expected Bouknight and Kai to basically play zero minutes. Probably expected Cody Martin to play 70 games and not 7 games.

I doubt they expected the Nuggets to be the 1 seed. Murray and MPJ were two of the biggest injury risks over the last few years. I doubt they expected the Jazz to be decent.

Its a clear loss of a trade at this point, just saying it could have looked fine if a few breaks would of went our way and not completely against us.

[yosemiteben]

I could focus on Tari Eason too..

We thought Miles, PJ, McDaniels, Thor, Kai were all going to get minutes at the 4 this upcoming season.

Not being a dick, but did you answer my question?

This also seems super desperate. You can't convince me that we needed to pass because we had too much wing depth. There's no such thing, and you don't stop rolling the dice because you have Thor or Kai on the roster. I like those guys, but I'm not passing on a lotto pick for a guaranteed non lotto pick because I'm worried about having too much wing depth.

I don't think the depth thing alone is the reason we passed, probably one of 5 of the reasons I listed.

As I mentioned I doubt Hornets expected Bouknight and Kai to basically play zero minutes. Probably expected Cody Martin to play 70 games and not 7 games.

I doubt they expected the Nuggets to be the 1 seed. Murray and MPJ were two of the biggest injury risks over the last few years. I doubt they expected the Jazz to be decent.

Its a clear loss of a trade at this point, just saying it could have looked fine if a few breaks would of went our way and not completely against us.

I very much disagree that trading lotto pick for lotto protected pick from contender would ever look fine. None of the arguments you made before change that, nor does an argument that a bunch of guys not in our rotation last season made our depth chart too cluttered.

[JMAC3]

That is fine, but we just saw how not playing tanked Bouk and Kai trade value after 1 year. They were valued less than a first round pick immediately, so they didn't hold their value. Mitch probably was concerned that could happen again.

If the Nuggets were 4 seed in west instead of 1 and the Jazz were bottom 5 like many expected I don't think we would all be so pissed, but maybe I am wrong.

Pick 22 and 35 and 3 more seconds wouldn't be the worst return ever.