McJesus - The Josh McRoberts Thread

[EwingSweatsALot]

For any of the X's and O's guys I have a question on McRoberts.

Have y'all noticed him going to the opposite side on double teams, screens, and pick and rolls? When one of these happens he goes to the opposite side of his man leaving him wide open.

I have seen it through out the year, but one instance sticks out in my mind. It was the Utah game a couple games back and he leaves Williams at the top of the key to go and help Henderson on Jefferson. When he helps he helps on the baseline side not on the side closest to Williams. Jefferson realizing this kicks it back to Williams, Henderson now has to fight between Jefferson and Henderson to get back and he trips leaving Williams with an easy drive to the lane.

If his man screens the ball handler, he does the same thing, when the screen is used his man just pops out for a wide open 15 footer or so because McRoberts cannot get back to him.

On screen and rolls when he does it, instead of flashing over between the ball handler and the roll man, he already goes to the ball handler leaving no one shuffling down to the roll man, leaving an open lay up because you know Jefferson isn't rotating there.

Is anybody else seeing this? Is this something the coaches want from him? Is this how they want it played? It seems odd since nobody else does it, but maybe Clifford has is reasoning on it.

I'm sorry, man, I can't imagine the situation inside my head. Perhaps, look for it during the next game and tell me which exact plays (at what point in the game) you were talking about. I'm not sure whether I'm fluent enough in English to quite understand what you were talking about.

I have noticed what you talked about in the second to the last paragraph. Those McBob hedges on PnRs do go terribly on some occasions.

I completely misremembered the play that he fell on, but the premise is still the same with him leaving his man. He helps on the baseline side. Hayward kicks back to Williams, which cause McBob to fall and a massive amount of rotations having to happen which leads to an easy lay in.

It is at the 8:37 mark in the 1st quarter on the link below. Jefferson Driving layup.

The second play is at the 6:21 mark. Williams Running Bank shot. He once again goes to help on the opposite side of his man, leaving an easy lay in for Williams because McRoberts can't get back over in time.

Hopefully this helps in what I am talking about.

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300458#playbyplay

[mrknowitall215]

It look like something new Clifford might be trying to implement where the defenders shade the ball handler away from the screen since the Bobcats' bigs aren't good at hedging (sans Biyombo & Zeller), but it's not effective unless McRoberts and/or Jefferson are fast enough to get back onto their man when the ball is reversed

[LamarMatic7]

For any of the X's and O's guys I have a question on McRoberts.

Have y'all noticed him going to the opposite side on double teams, screens, and pick and rolls? When one of these happens he goes to the opposite side of his man leaving him wide open.

I have seen it through out the year, but one instance sticks out in my mind. It was the Utah game a couple games back and he leaves Williams at the top of the key to go and help Henderson on Jefferson. When he helps he helps on the baseline side not on the side closest to Williams. Jefferson realizing this kicks it back to Williams, Henderson now has to fight between Jefferson and Henderson to get back and he trips leaving Williams with an easy drive to the lane.

If his man screens the ball handler, he does the same thing, when the screen is used his man just pops out for a wide open 15 footer or so because McRoberts cannot get back to him.

On screen and rolls when he does it, instead of flashing over between the ball handler and the roll man, he already goes to the ball handler leaving no one shuffling down to the roll man, leaving an open lay up because you know Jefferson isn't rotating there.

Is anybody else seeing this? Is this something the coaches want from him? Is this how they want it played? It seems odd since nobody else does it, but maybe Clifford has is reasoning on it.

I'm sorry, man, I can't imagine the situation inside my head. Perhaps, look for it during the next game and tell me which exact plays (at what point in the game) you were talking about. I'm not sure whether I'm fluent enough in English to quite understand what you were talking about.

I have noticed what you talked about in the second to the last paragraph. Those McBob hedges on PnRs do go terribly on some occasions.

I completely misremembered the play that he fell on, but the premise is still the same with him leaving his man. He helps on the baseline side. Hayward kicks back to Williams, which cause McBob to fall and a massive amount of rotations having to happen which leads to an easy lay in.

It is at the 8:37 mark in the 1st quarter on the link below. Jefferson Driving layup.

The second play is at the 6:21 mark. Williams Running Bank shot. He once again goes to help on the opposite side of his man, leaving an easy lay in for Williams because McRoberts can't get back over in time.

Hopefully this helps in what I am talking about.

http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300458#playbyplay

Oh that's what you're talking about...

That's easy. It's called "icing" the pick-n-roll. The player who's guarding the ball handler forces him away from the screen by stepping in front of it. That, of course, leaves a somewhat of a clear path to the basket along the sideline so the big has to drop back and be ready to wait for the ball handler.

The reason for doing so is simple - you just have to force action towards the sideline in basketball. When guards start to penetrate through the middle, good things happen for the offensive team.

[LamarMatic7]

It makes me wonder did you guys actually understand what I'm talking about whenever I mention "Ice". I thought it was more well-known. It's a principal all of the good teams use.

I'm probably looking like some dumb **** throwing around fancy words while nobody exactly gets what the hell am I talking about and who do I think I am talking about stuff that's probably above my head.

[LamarMatic7]

"Ice" definitely can turn into defenders scrambling all over the court, if the guy who sets the screen is a good shooter since you basically leave him half-open and the next man is sort of responsible for contesting the shot (like Tolliver in the first clip).

But, yeah, the first play would have been alright, if McBob hadn't slipped. Everybody would have rotated and they've simply spent valuable time off their 24 seconds and the point guard had the middle denied.

The second play fails just because Al is so lazy to contest Marvin's shot. But that's something that we just have to deal with. No matter what we do on defense, Al will be targeted and exposed.

[LamarMatic7]

But the thing is we're decent at Ice. It's good that we do this type of stuff.

Of course that's not the case during the last stretch of the games when our defense crumbled. A lot of guards got in between the ball handler's defender and the guy who set the screen. If you use the first clip as an example, it's like the point guard took the path Kemba gave him, yet crossed over McBob and got to the middle in between our two guys. If that happens, then we're toast.

But, hey, let's hope this was just a breakdown of our guys playing too much games without MKG and our defense will be back to normal.

It just so happens that I have some clips from this year's columns I've been writing that I can use as examples in this discussion.

Take a look at the Pels, per example. They're a bad defensive team so naturally it's a mess whenever they try stuff like this. Notice how the players are clearly shouting "Ice! Ice!" and Davis is fading towards the sideline, ready to wait for the ball handler. Yet the guard never gets himself in position to deny the screen and lets the ball handler drive through the middle.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbqswpiufNM[/youtube]

And watch how Phoenix does it. Guys instantly know to yell out "Ice, Ice, Ice!", they shut down the middle, the help defenders know how to read and react, etc. It ends up in a broken play for the offense. Beautiful.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50uYLu-XpKA[/youtube]

[LamarMatic7]

I have catching up to do with our past games so I just watched the Jazz game on the night we unveiled the jerseys. I cut examples for you guys while I was at it so you could see what I'm talking about with footage of our own team.

Here's a split of "Ice" that I talked about. It has been happening a lot as of late. The big who's backing down has to maintain a distance between him and the ball handler that allows him to deny the middle. It's not easy to do this, especially for bigger guys, but it's something that makes a big very valuable - the skill of being able to back down and control both the guy who's going to cut to the basket and not letting the ball handler past him.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEynlgCCN6k[/youtube]

And here's successful icing of the pick-n-roll. The initial play (although not fully explored by the ball handler) forces the offence to swing the ball over to the weak side. Our defense recovers. The Jazz try another pick-n-roll which we Ice. The guard has a path to the basket along the sideline but Biz knows his task well and keeps him in check while the rest of the team has rotated properly. Take a look at Zeller giving that bump that the weak-side defender needs to do in order to stop the cutter and Kemba already fighting for position with Kanter and denying a pass to him. Great stuff.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqH8ro6uoaA[/youtube]

[catch20two]

If we want to be a consistent top defensive team then we need to start Biz and Zeller. They are better than McBob and Jefferson. But our offense would be pitiful.

[catch20two]

...because McRoberts no longer play off the ball like he did in Dunlap's system where the guards got to be guards. McRoberts won't be catching any alley oops unless it's in transition

disappointing he seems to be less effective in the system change

Pretty much. The role that Clifford has McRoberts playing has him in a bit over his head & his pay grade. He's averaging less points, shooting lower percentages, and his rebounding has regressed...

...BUT HIS ASSIST IS UP!!!



I was never a fan of McRoberts facilitating the offense. It doesn't help the spacing issues, unless it's on one of those rare nights where McRoberts is able to make a fair share of 3-pointers, and the opposing defense is forced to respect it after the fact

Exactly. Let McBob be the role player that he is and not a focal point of our offense just because he can pass a little bit. We need more rebounding and physicality. I remember when McBob used to be a bit of a junkyard dog but now he's getting soft playing out on the perimeter.

[EwingSweatsALot]

Thanks Lamar. Was just able to go over your break down. Really informative stuff. I might just start sending you questions constantly now so I can get more breakdowns haha.

[fatlever]

the next time i am playing pick up ball, i am going to start screaming "ICE" and see what happens.

[LamarMatic7]

Thanks Lamar. Was just able to go over your break down. Really informative stuff. I might just start sending you questions constantly now so I can get more breakdowns haha.

haha, feel free to do so. I enjoyed writing those posts up.

[mrknowitall215]

Is it just me or has the offense been running through McRoberts a little bit less lately? Keep it up

[catch20two]

McBob done fell off the cliff-ord. His PER is at 12 now. He was at about 16 all season. He keep playing like this and he'll be worst than Zeller by February.

[HornetJail]

McBob and Zeller have both sucked as of late. I'd like to see Biz/Al starting and Zeller/McBob coming off the bench.

[mrknowitall215]

Charlotte has been receiving very little production from the PF position this season. Neither McRoberts nor Zeller have lived up to their billing or expectations. McRoberts was serviceable for about the first month or so of the season, but he's been below average through December & January

[mrknowitall215]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/426042684818472961[/tweet]

[HornetJail]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/HPbasketball/status/426042684818472961[/tweet]

McBob's number will only go up without Kemba on the floor.

[gehenherzog]

Charlotte has been receiving very little production from the PF position this season. Neither McRoberts nor Zeller have lived up to their billing or expectations. McRoberts was serviceable for about the first month or so of the season, but he's been below average through December & January

He's played well the last 4 games.

His numbers have actually been relatively consistent from month to month.

[HornetJail]

Charlotte has been receiving very little production from the PF position this season. Neither McRoberts nor Zeller have lived up to their billing or expectations. McRoberts was serviceable for about the first month or so of the season, but he's been below average through December & January

He's played well the last 4 games.

His numbers have actually been relatively consistent from month to month.

Yeah, he's been alright as of late. Just started out January pretty slowly.