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The Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#301 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:31 pm

Dancingpanda wrote:In my opinion Hayward only fits with our team if we don't give up allot of assets, especially MKG. If the Jazz dont want to play ball with a S&T i say call their bluff, give Hayward a SLIGHT over pay and see if they match. If they do, walk away find someone else. I feel this deal could make or break our team, depending on how this is handled.


I feel the demand for playmaking, dribbling, passing, shooting has become so exaggerated by now, logic suggets a higher price will follow. The demand has become really severe here and got even worse when McRoberts left.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#302 » by MPM » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:39 pm

I'm convinced that Hayward is strapped into a chair in Cho's lair 8 floors below Time Warner with his eyes pried open a la Clockwork Orange. Cho is forcing him to watch hours of the mormon tabernacle choir warming up and polygamist wedding videos while Clifford nervously looks on.

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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#303 » by yosemiteben » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:40 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
You're still paying 8 million for a bench player with upcoming contracts owed Kemba + Al Jefferson if he opts out. And you didn't move Hendo in a Hayward deal, so you can add that 6 million to your 18-19 total. If it's 20 you're looking at 26 million for your duo vs. Hayward at 16. Give me Hayward plus a 10 million starter (Afflalo). Now I'm at 26 million and I have Afflalo starting instead of MKG on the bench.

I view Hendo as an asset that can be moved - you are at $26M but you've already given away a $6M expiring that is a productive player.

That $8M pay out for MKG is two seasons away. I personally feel there is a high likelihood that he will outperform that contract, and certainly will out perform the $5M he is owed this upcoming season and $6M the next season.


We both have Afflalo for 10 million let's say. You have MKG on the bench, I have Hayward starting. The money might even be the same if Hayward is 14. 14 = 6 (Henderson) + 8 (MKG). It's basically you prefer MKG on the bench to Hayward starting. You can't make it seem like you're getting an extra player for the price of Hayward because you're not. Henderson is hardly an asset. In fact I'm dumping Henderson now, in advance of Kemba's extension and Al's potential opt out. And I'm securing Lance now. you're waiting on Afflalo.

Just to keep everything straight...

Your proposal:

Sign Lance now
S&T Hayward for Hendo, MKG
Sign 3rd FA next offseason (Afflalo to take your example)

My proposal:

Sign Lance now
Sign 2nd FA next offseason (Afflalo)
Move expiring Hendo for best value we can get that includes future picks (obviously it's debatable how great that value will be)

Under both proposals we are signing Lance and Afflalo. The difference is you go into the 2015-2016 season with a $10M Afflalo on your bench with Lance and a near max Hayward in your starting lineup, whereas I go with Lance and either a $6M MKG or a $10M Afflalo in the lineup and the other off the bench, for a net savings of at least $8M.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#304 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:41 pm

@yosemiteben,

Wait a minute.

We both have Lance Stephenson at SG.

I have Hayward (14) and you have MKG (8) + Henderson (6).

You don't have MKG + Afflalo/Matthews/Green in place of Hayward. You have MKG + Henderson in place of Hayward.

And you risk going into this upcoming season with Henderson + MKG + no McRoberts if we can't pull off a sign & trade for Hayward.

It's the same team, minus McRoberts potentially.

You really don't consider Hayward an upgrade to MKG.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#305 » by yosemiteben » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:48 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:@yosemiteben,

Wait a minute.

We both have Lance Stephenson at SG.

I have Hayward (14) and you have MKG (8) + Henderson (6).

You don't have MKG + Afflalo/Matthews/Green in place of Hayward. You have MKG + Henderson in place of Hayward.

And you risk going into this upcoming season with Henderson + MKG + no McRoberts if we can't pull off a sign & trade for Hayward.

It's the same team, minus McRoberts potentially.

You really don't consider Hayward an upgrade to MKG.

First, MKG is not $8M for two more seasons. I already pointed this out. He is due roughly $5M this season and $6M next season.

Second, I specifically said I would move Hendo for the best value picks I could get. Even if that's only a late first (or even worse), that's value you lost when you traded him via the S&T.

Third, it's the same team if you ignore Hairston, Lance and Vonleh and any organic improvement in MKG, Al, Zeller, Biz and Kemba that they get from their first full off season with a competent coach that has any experience. I think signing Lance is enough to cap off this offseason.

As I said before, I'll take MKG + a $10M free agent (+ whatever assets I can get for Hendo) over Hayward.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#306 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:48 pm

Also, do you have any idea what your price may be for Lance if you walk into negotiations without Hayward? We fixate on Hayward's 14-16 as if Lance is going to be a bargain. We don't know what Lance price may be. I have the luxury of passing on him if it gets to high because I have Hayward. Next year I'll spend on Afflalo and have him starting at 10 while you have Lance starting at 15, which you had to pay or else you stood pat for the rebrand and Grand Opening. I'm not saying your plan is bad but it doesn't seem the path the front office is taking with Hayward locked in the arena.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#307 » by Dancingpanda » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:51 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
Dancingpanda wrote:In my opinion Hayward only fits with our team if we don't give up allot of assets, especially MKG. If the Jazz dont want to play ball with a S&T i say call their bluff, give Hayward a SLIGHT over pay and see if they match. If they do, walk away find someone else. I feel this deal could make or break our team, depending on how this is handled.


I feel the demand for playmaking, dribbling, passing, shooting has become so exaggerated by now, logic suggets a higher price will follow. The demand has become really severe here and got even worse when McRoberts left.


I just feel we can still get that with out giving up our best defender. We did well last season because of our Defense, which rely heavily on good wing Defense. Adding Hayward means we sacrifice some wing defense for offence, in turn making MKG even more valuable as he would have to shoulder the load Defensively. Remember when MKG was injured this past season our defense was not nearly as good. If we trade MKG whos gonna play D? Kemba is undersized, Zeller is not strong enough and AL is kinda slow. To me MKG was the glue of our defence. Obviously the perfect out come would be that we get Hayward and keep MKG, while Hayward spaces the floor and creates plays for MKG to slash to the basket. but that's just my opinon
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#308 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:52 pm

yosemiteben wrote:As I said before, I'll take MKG + a $10M free agent (+ whatever assets I can get for Hendo) over Hayward.


You don't have 10 million. You have MKG at 6 + Henderson at 6 with no guarantee you can move him. We've been trying to move him constantly, even attaching a pick to him and we're going to receive a pick for him? That's 12.

I have Hayward at 14.

So you'll take MKG + 2 million. That doesn't get you ****.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#309 » by Hornet Mania » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:55 pm

If Hayward comes over it shouldn't be as an upgrade for MKG but a replacement for Hendo. What MKG brings to the defensive end is really undervalued, imo. If we straight-swapped those two I'm not sure it makes the team better. Hayward is a quality player but he fulfills a far different role, and there's a limit to how many average to below-average defenders Clifford's system can hide. A frontline of Hayward/Zeller/Jefferson will scare no one that end of the floor.

I'd love to roll with Hayward (at $9-10 million, ideally) and MKG as our wing duo of the present and future. I would be a lot less thrilled with Hayward/Hendo, and a bit concerned about Hayward/Lance if only because that's all our cap flexibility gone in one off-season.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#310 » by yosemiteben » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:56 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:Also, do you have any idea what your price may be for Lance if you walk into negotiations without Hayward? We fixate on Hayward's 14-16 as if Lance is going to be a bargain. We don't know what Lance price may be. I have the luxury of passing on him if it gets to high because I have Hayward. Next year I'll spend on Afflalo and have him on starting while you have Lance starting at 15, which you had to pay or else you stood pat for the rebrand and Grand Opening. I'm not saying your plan is bad but it doesn't seem the path the front office is taking with Hayward locked in the arena.

I HIGHLY doubt Lance would accept less if we go in without Hayward so I'm not sure I understand your point there. If anything I think he'd want whatever Hayward gets, so we'll be removing him from our options if we commit Hayward to that amount. There is no chance I take Lance at $15M so that's a non-starter. No team is committing that to him. And I like him as a prospect better than Hayward, so maybe that says something about how I feel about committing that to Hayward on top of sending Utah MKG.

I do agree though that we risk missing on Lance and going into next season without a major FA acquisition - if the alternative is sending away MKG for a max deal that is an overpay then I'm ok with that. It better be damn clear that the only other options were major overpays though.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#311 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Jul 8, 2014 8:59 pm

Hornet Mania wrote:a bit concerned about Hayward/Lance if only because that's all our cap flexibility gone in one off-season.


But the whole point of cap flexibility is the ability to upgrade and improve. Hayward is 24. Lance is 23. We'd be invested in their improvement internally. And we'd keep all of our incoming youth by not trading draft picks in the deal for Hayward, and those young players on cheap contracts help us manage upgrades and to consolidate when necessary.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#312 » by yosemiteben » Tue Jul 8, 2014 9:09 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:As I said before, I'll take MKG + a $10M free agent (+ whatever assets I can get for Hendo) over Hayward.


You don't have 10 million. You have MKG at 6 + Henderson at 6 with no guarantee you can move him. We've been trying to move him constantly, even attaching a pick to him and we're going to receive a pick for him? That's 12.

I have Hayward at 14.

So you'll take MKG + 2 million. That doesn't get you ****.

With regard to moving Henderson, we were trying to move a guy fresh off a signing with over two full seasons before an off season where teams were desperate for cap space. Next offseason there will be more certainty, at least with regard to top tier FAs that teams will need cap space for, and Hendo will be an expiring. I think we are much more likely to find someone who will throw us a pick to clear some 2016 cap space. If we have to do a salary dump and just take seconds, we can do that.

If Hayward gets a max, he's getting between $15M-$16M. In our scenario, I think that's a safe assumption.

Assuming Hayward is signed to just $15M even, then, after moving Hendo (even if only for seconds), we have MKG and $9M of contract space just to get to Hayward's contract, plus the picks we picked up.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#313 » by Hornet Mania » Tue Jul 8, 2014 9:14 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:But the whole point of cap flexibility is the ability to upgrade and improve. Hayward is 24. Lance is 23. We'd be invested in their improvement internally. And we'd keep all of our incoming youth by not trading draft picks in the deal for Hayward, and those young players on cheap contracts help us manage upgrades and to consolidate when necessary.


There's definitely a certain logic to taking your shot while the opportunity is there, no doubt about that. I've just always favored a more risk-averse approach at a more methodical pace for team building, and that's where the concern comes into my mind.

Lance and Hayward are both young, which is both part of their intrigue and their risk. They could both blow up, be all-stars or at least borderline, and we battle in the East as the new-age Pistons with a super deep starting 5 that contends despite having no top-10 player. That's the best-case scenario, obviously. The worst-case scenario is that Hayward turns out to be slightly above league average at a deep position and we pay him big money for that, while Lance's ego goes out of control sabotaging himself and the team in the process. If that happens we're done for the next four years as anything but first-round fodder.I also have some concern about the additional difficulty of integrating two major new pieces on offense, one of which is a loose cannon, while we also presumably grapple with tweaking our defense to account for the loss of MKG.

It's just a philosophical preference more than anything. I value flexibility a lot, and I think our young team has a lot of room to grow even without landing a big free agent right away much less two. I'm very skittish about compromising that flexibility unless I absolutely believe it's our one and only route to improvement.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#314 » by W_HAMILTON » Tue Jul 8, 2014 9:54 pm

I'm starting to worry that this will be the type of offseason that we end up regretting for several years afterwards.....
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#315 » by ARHornet » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:21 pm

W_HAMILTON wrote:I'm starting to worry that this will be the type of offseason that we end up regretting for several years afterwards.....

I have the same fear. Hopefully it's just me over thinking it.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#316 » by KembaWalker » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:27 pm

W_HAMILTON wrote:I'm starting to worry that this will be the type of offseason that we end up regretting for several years afterwards.....


I keep reading that the salary cap is going to take a huge jump in the next couple years with the looming lockout and new TV deal upcoming. this might be the year to overpay a young guy if you want to make a splash without killing your future cap flexibility too bad
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#317 » by HornetJail » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:29 pm

KembaWalker wrote:
W_HAMILTON wrote:I'm starting to worry that this will be the type of offseason that we end up regretting for several years afterwards.....


I keep reading that the salary cap is going to take a huge jump in the next couple years with the looming lockout and new TV deal upcoming. this might be the year to overpay a young guy if you want to make a splash without killing your future cap flexibility too bad

If it's going to be a great role player like Hayward, I'd rather let it pass and have more cap space for future years. If it's an actual stud like Stephenson, I'd do it if it came to that.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#318 » by LofJ » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:34 pm

I don't understand what our fascination with Hayward is. At best he's a third option on a contending team, that isn't someone you bet your future on by giving them a max contract, much less trade one of your best building blocks for.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#319 » by ARHornet » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:35 pm

Hornet Mania wrote:If Hayward comes over it shouldn't be as an upgrade for MKG but a replacement for Hendo. What MKG brings to the defensive end is really undervalued, imo. If we straight-swapped those two I'm not sure it makes the team better. Hayward is a quality player but he fulfills a far different role, and there's a limit to how many average to below-average defenders Clifford's system can hide. A frontline of Hayward/Zeller/Jefferson will scare no one that end of the floor.

I'd love to roll with Hayward (at $9-10 million, ideally) and MKG as our wing duo of the present and future. I would be a lot less thrilled with Hayward/Hendo, and a bit concerned about Hayward/Lance if only because that's all our cap flexibility gone in one off-season.

Great post. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the situation. MKG and Hayward would be a really good combo. Hayward and Henderson not as much.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#320 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:36 pm

KembaWalker wrote:
W_HAMILTON wrote:I'm starting to worry that this will be the type of offseason that we end up regretting for several years afterwards.....


I keep reading that the salary cap is going to take a huge jump in the next couple years with the looming lockout and new TV deal upcoming. this might be the year to overpay a young guy if you want to make a splash without killing your future cap flexibility too bad


Exactly. What might be overpaying right now may turn out to be a decent little contract in 2 years.
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