Moderators: BigSlam, yosemiteben, fatlever, JDR720, Diop
JMAC3 wrote:Charlotte choosing to keep Lee who is probably the 28th best coach in the league at best out of 30 coaches and trading LaMelo who is the 40th best player in the NBA out of 450 players.
Make it make sense lol.
fatlever wrote:id be shocked if we ditched lee this summer. fair or not, sends a bad message to future coaches. unless players turn on him, he'll be here next year.
JMAC3 wrote:fatlever wrote:id be shocked if we ditched lee this summer. fair or not, sends a bad message to future coaches. unless players turn on him, he'll be here next year.
Does it? He is probably 30th if you power ranked all the head coaches in the league.
Ignore the Win/Loss record, he hasn't done anything in my mind to prove he deserves the job. Hornets gave him exciting young pieces in Miller, Mark, Tidjane and you can make the argument he hasn't developed them into more valuable players. Which should have been his #1 goal.
Finding and developing Moussa has been the only good thing to come off this season on the floor, that just isn't enough to keep him. Especially when the Wizards sweep us.
yosemiteben wrote:If we want to message to the world that we have no plan, we should simultaneously knee cap our coach with a roster and forced rotation of guys with zero experience in their current roles and no continuity with our team this season, then fire the coach because that group can't win.
JMAC3 wrote:yosemiteben wrote:If we want to message to the world that we have no plan, we should simultaneously knee cap our coach with a roster and forced rotation of guys with zero experience in their current roles and no continuity with our team this season, then fire the coach because that group can't win.
I disagree because teams like Utah, Brooklyn, OKC have given their coaches terrible rosters in years past and the coaches overperformed and developed young talent. Lee hasn't done either.
yosemiteben wrote:JMAC3 wrote:yosemiteben wrote:If we want to message to the world that we have no plan, we should simultaneously knee cap our coach with a roster and forced rotation of guys with zero experience in their current roles and no continuity with our team this season, then fire the coach because that group can't win.
I disagree because teams like Utah, Brooklyn, OKC have given their coaches terrible rosters in years past and the coaches overperformed and developed young talent. Lee hasn't done either.
I would challenge the assertion that they won despite having half of their expected rotation out on injury and being forced to plug in multiple guys on 10 day deals just to cover the rotation.
I do not believe that is an apples to apples comparison.
JMAC3 wrote:yosemiteben wrote:JMAC3 wrote:
I disagree because teams like Utah, Brooklyn, OKC have given their coaches terrible rosters in years past and the coaches overperformed and developed young talent. Lee hasn't done either.
I would challenge the assertion that they won despite having half of their expected rotation out on injury and being forced to plug in multiple guys on 10 day deals just to cover the rotation.
I do not believe that is an apples to apples comparison.
I don't understand people wanting to keep this loser around. Literally any coach we hired could have won 14 games thus far with this roster. We set the NBA record for worst losing margin over a 3 game span. We are 29th in net rating.
JMAC3 wrote:The best reason to keep him around is, the team was bad and it will look bad to fire him?
JMAC3 wrote:As I said, it looks worse to keep him around when we were literally the worst team in the league. Keeping him is a cheap move if we don't believe he is the coach of the future. I don't understand how any Hornet fan can watch this team and Lee and hope he is the coach still in 3 yrs based on what he has shown.
yosemiteben wrote:JMAC3 wrote:yosemiteben wrote:I would challenge the assertion that they won despite having half of their expected rotation out on injury and being forced to plug in multiple guys on 10 day deals just to cover the rotation.
I do not believe that is an apples to apples comparison.
I don't understand people wanting to keep this loser around. Literally any coach we hired could have won 14 games thus far with this roster. We set the NBA record for worst losing margin over a 3 game span. We are 29th in net rating.
It's because our offense is ****, and I showed the stats on that - we lost 6 of our top 8 most impactful offensive players, and 1 of them is Melo who also missed a huge portion of the season and who is routinely held out of games with literally no one on the roster capable of approaching even a fraction of his impact or role offensively. We have literally zero plus primary ballhandlers or facilitators without Melo. I cannot blame Lee for not creating something out of nothing given the tools he has to work with on this roster.
I showed the stats in the other thread - when we have had our projected starting lineup healthy (admittedly a small sample size), they have scored offensively like a top 5 offense and played league average defense.JMAC3 wrote:The best reason to keep him around is, the team was bad and it will look bad to fire him?
No, the reason is because he was never given a legitimate chance to succeed. Over half of our rotation and our entire bench right now are guys that were never supposed to be in our rotation when this season began. Guys are constantly bouncing in and out of availability such that there is no way to manage expectations for roles or create anything resembling consistent rotations.
Given that reality, yeah I think it's unfair to blame Lee for our lack of success and fire him for it. Candidly, I find it miraculous that this season we have the best defense we've had in the last 7 seasons, and that is without being forced into gimmicky junk defenses just to try to hold things together.JMAC3 wrote:As I said, it looks worse to keep him around when we were literally the worst team in the league. Keeping him is a cheap move if we don't believe he is the coach of the future. I don't understand how any Hornet fan can watch this team and Lee and hope he is the coach still in 3 yrs based on what he has shown.
I legitimately think any coach would struggle as we have, given the challenges this team has faced this year.
fatlever wrote:?t=MjleatiKZCz-TVh8E08BGA&s=19
Lee long response on our slow pace
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yosemiteben wrote:JMAC3 wrote:yosemiteben wrote:I would challenge the assertion that they won despite having half of their expected rotation out on injury and being forced to plug in multiple guys on 10 day deals just to cover the rotation.
I do not believe that is an apples to apples comparison.
I don't understand people wanting to keep this loser around. Literally any coach we hired could have won 14 games thus far with this roster. We set the NBA record for worst losing margin over a 3 game span. We are 29th in net rating.
It's because our offense is ****, and I showed the stats on that - we lost 6 of our top 8 most impactful offensive players, and 1 of them is Melo who also missed a huge portion of the season and who is routinely held out of games with literally no one on the roster capable of approaching even a fraction of his impact or role offensively. We have literally zero plus primary ballhandlers or facilitators without Melo. I cannot blame Lee for not creating something out of nothing given the tools he has to work with on this roster.
I showed the stats in the other thread - when we have had our projected starting lineup healthy (admittedly a small sample size), they have scored offensively like a top 5 offense and played league average defense.JMAC3 wrote:The best reason to keep him around is, the team was bad and it will look bad to fire him?
No, the reason is because he was never given a legitimate chance to succeed. Over half of our rotation and our entire bench right now are guys that were never supposed to be in our rotation when this season began. Guys are constantly bouncing in and out of availability such that there is no way to manage expectations for roles or create anything resembling consistent rotations.
Given that reality, yeah I think it's unfair to blame Lee for our lack of success and fire him for it. Candidly, I find it miraculous that this season we have the best defense we've had in the last 7 seasons, and that is without being forced into gimmicky junk defenses just to try to hold things together.JMAC3 wrote:As I said, it looks worse to keep him around when we were literally the worst team in the league. Keeping him is a cheap move if we don't believe he is the coach of the future. I don't understand how any Hornet fan can watch this team and Lee and hope he is the coach still in 3 yrs based on what he has shown.
I legitimately think any coach would struggle as we have, given the challenges this team has faced this year.
Walt Cronkite wrote:Will Hardy has a 36.9 win percentage in nearly three seasons and is currently marginally better than our own rookie coach. Is that really the standard for figuring it out with a depleted roster?
I didn't see a roster stacked with talent and ready to compete before the season began, so when they went 6-14 through Nov (6-10 pre Grant's injury) I was pretty impressed. From my observations in the many games I've watched, when the team is (more) full strength, they compete more. Less healthy available players have been tankier games.
The team is not good so it's easy to dismiss this as a stretch and it's not perfect, but here is an attempted example of what I think I've seen:
Seth Curry has played in 19/60 games where he's gotten 16+ mins. The team is 7-12 in those games. Seth should not be relied on to impact wins and losses, but he is a veteran role player with 11 seasons of experience, which is valuable, especially on a young team.
7 of those 12 losses are without LaMelo, so for those games, Curry isn't playing bc the team is "trying to win" but out of necessity to stop the bleeding. The team should be awful with Seth playing that many guard minutes without LaMelo, but only 2 of those Ls are by more than 10 pts. I think Seth has been pretty much healthy, so his general lack of minutes looks to me as an indicator that not a ton of games have tipped off with the goal being to win.
I was traveling during the recent embarrassing road blowouts, so I can't attempt to explain why they were so bad. I do think the team is currently in a weird spot trying to figure out what to do with Mark after moving on from him. The team was much more cohesive in that Spurs game before the Lakers backed out of the trade and Moussa's minutes are limited in favor of showcasing Williams and Nurkic. He's not in Lee's doghouse, he was subbed in to guard the inbounder and forced a turnover before the half which to me indicates that Lee is a believer, but he's currently the odd man out to rehab Mark's value.
It's a wordy enough post and I have more thoughts (some of them conflicting), but ultimately I think it's really hard to evaluate Lee this year. I haven't observed from Lee a guy that is worried about his job and desperate for wins, which to me speaks to a leash to implement a vision. I can see it when I squint and don't blame anyone if they dont see it, because my own bias is I want him and the team to succeed. I will say that a lot of the most negative takes appear to be from accounts I don't notice in the live game threads and/or seem to be evaluating things from a box score and I do question how much insight that shines on coaching ability.
SWedd523 wrote:I have always held the belief that coaching is less important than people give it credit for.
It's easy to be a "good" coach with a good team and it's easy to be a "bad" coach with a bad team.
However, the way I judge coaches is in their ability to manage difficult times, difficult situations, personalities, injuries, etc.
Lee has not shown much ability to make adjustments in game or throughout the season. I haven't seen him maximize the offense around the players, hunt mismatches, get the team out in transition, or really anything.
That's not a good sign
SWedd523 wrote:Walt Cronkite wrote:Will Hardy has a 36.9 win percentage in nearly three seasons and is currently marginally better than our own rookie coach. Is that really the standard for figuring it out with a depleted roster?
I didn't see a roster stacked with talent and ready to compete before the season began, so when they went 6-14 through Nov (6-10 pre Grant's injury) I was pretty impressed. From my observations in the many games I've watched, when the team is (more) full strength, they compete more. Less healthy available players have been tankier games.
The team is not good so it's easy to dismiss this as a stretch and it's not perfect, but here is an attempted example of what I think I've seen:
Seth Curry has played in 19/60 games where he's gotten 16+ mins. The team is 7-12 in those games. Seth should not be relied on to impact wins and losses, but he is a veteran role player with 11 seasons of experience, which is valuable, especially on a young team.
7 of those 12 losses are without LaMelo, so for those games, Curry isn't playing bc the team is "trying to win" but out of necessity to stop the bleeding. The team should be awful with Seth playing that many guard minutes without LaMelo, but only 2 of those Ls are by more than 10 pts. I think Seth has been pretty much healthy, so his general lack of minutes looks to me as an indicator that not a ton of games have tipped off with the goal being to win.
I was traveling during the recent embarrassing road blowouts, so I can't attempt to explain why they were so bad. I do think the team is currently in a weird spot trying to figure out what to do with Mark after moving on from him. The team was much more cohesive in that Spurs game before the Lakers backed out of the trade and Moussa's minutes are limited in favor of showcasing Williams and Nurkic. He's not in Lee's doghouse, he was subbed in to guard the inbounder and forced a turnover before the half which to me indicates that Lee is a believer, but he's currently the odd man out to rehab Mark's value.
It's a wordy enough post and I have more thoughts (some of them conflicting), but ultimately I think it's really hard to evaluate Lee this year. I haven't observed from Lee a guy that is worried about his job and desperate for wins, which to me speaks to a leash to implement a vision. I can see it when I squint and don't blame anyone if they dont see it, because my own bias is I want him and the team to succeed. I will say that a lot of the most negative takes appear to be from accounts I don't notice in the live game threads and/or seem to be evaluating things from a box score and I do question how much insight that shines on coaching ability.
I have always held the belief that coaching is less important than people give it credit for.
It's easy to be a "good" coach with a good team and it's easy to be a "bad" coach with a bad team.
However, the way I judge coaches is in their ability to manage difficult times, difficult situations, personalities, injuries, etc.
Lee has not shown much ability to make adjustments in game or throughout the season. I haven't seen him maximize the offense around the players, hunt mismatches, get the team out in transition, or really anything.
That's not a good sign