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The Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#321 » by LofJ » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:39 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:
W_HAMILTON wrote:I'm starting to worry that this will be the type of offseason that we end up regretting for several years afterwards.....


I keep reading that the salary cap is going to take a huge jump in the next couple years with the looming lockout and new TV deal upcoming. this might be the year to overpay a young guy if you want to make a splash without killing your future cap flexibility too bad


Exactly. What might be overpaying right now may turn out to be a decent little contract in 2 years.


If that's the case we should just max him out and not screw around with sign and trades, call their bluff and see if they're willing to back up what they've been saying.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#322 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:40 pm

LofJ wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:
I keep reading that the salary cap is going to take a huge jump in the next couple years with the looming lockout and new TV deal upcoming. this might be the year to overpay a young guy if you want to make a splash without killing your future cap flexibility too bad


Exactly. What might be overpaying right now may turn out to be a decent little contract in 2 years.


If that's the case we should just max him out and not screw around with sign and trades, call their bluff and see if they're willing to back up what they've been saying.


Sounds good to me. If we max him out I honestly think even if we did have to do a sign and trade that MKG or Zeller would not be involved, at all. Once you max a player out his value drops a pretty good bit.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#323 » by LofJ » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:44 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:
LofJ wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
Exactly. What might be overpaying right now may turn out to be a decent little contract in 2 years.


If that's the case we should just max him out and not screw around with sign and trades, call their bluff and see if they're willing to back up what they've been saying.


Sounds good to me. If we max him out I honestly think even if we did have to do a sign and trade that MKG or Zeller would not be involved, at all. Once you max a player out his value drops a pretty good bit.


That's what we should do then.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#324 » by ARHornet » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:45 pm

LofJ wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:
I keep reading that the salary cap is going to take a huge jump in the next couple years with the looming lockout and new TV deal upcoming. this might be the year to overpay a young guy if you want to make a splash without killing your future cap flexibility too bad


Exactly. What might be overpaying right now may turn out to be a decent little contract in 2 years.


If that's the case we should just max him out and not screw around with sign and trades, call their bluff and see if they're willing to back up what they've been saying.

If we max Hayward it will never turn into a decent contract regardless of how the cap rises. Hayward is a good player, but not close to a max guy.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#325 » by Walt Cronkite » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:46 pm

Please no max contract for Hayward.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#326 » by LofJ » Tue Jul 8, 2014 10:49 pm

ARHornet wrote:
LofJ wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
Exactly. What might be overpaying right now may turn out to be a decent little contract in 2 years.


If that's the case we should just max him out and not screw around with sign and trades, call their bluff and see if they're willing to back up what they've been saying.

If we max Hayward it will never turn into a decent contract regardless of how the cap rises. Hayward is a good player, but not close to a max guy.


I definitely agree, that said it would be better than losing MKG to pay him almost as much as the max anyway.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#327 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:17 pm

The argument for the Charlotte Hornets going all-in to sign restricted Utah Jazz free agent Gordon Hayward:

He’s a multi-skill small forward who averaged 16.2 points, 5.2 assists and 5.1 rebounds last season…At 6-foot-8, he has above-average height for his position, something Hornets coach Steve Clifford desires…He has already played three seasons in Utah with center Al Jefferson, the player through which the Hornets’ offense runs.

The argument against the Hornets going all-in to sign Hayward:

His field-goal percentage has fallen in each of his four NBA seasons, from 48.5 percent as a rookie to 41.3 percent last season…Signing Hayward to an offer sheet (Thursday at the earliest) could tie up most of the Hornets’ cap room for as much as three days with the Jazz holding the option to match…Utah has a reported $30 million in cap space and Jazz officials have indicated they’d match any offer for Hayward.

The Hornets spent Monday and Tuesday hosting Hayward, 24, in what amounted to an NBA-style recruiting visit. This franchise has traditionally been low-key in recruiting free agents. However, Hayward’s visit, organized by general manager Rich Cho, was trumpeted with "Welcome Gordon Hayward family" messages on the marquee outside Time Warner Cable Arena and on video screens throughout the building.

Hayward’s recruitment was important enough that coach Steve Clifford left summer-league practice early Monday afternoon to attend a dinner with Haywood. Clifford also wasn’t at morning practice Tuesday when media was ushered into the practice gym.

Wing shooting and scoring appeared to be the Hornets’ top need when the 43-29 regular season ended in April. That was partially addressed in the draft when the Hornets selected shooting guard P.J. Hairston. But adding a player like Hayward would upgrade a roster in which starters Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Gerald Henderson don’t stretch defenses with their 3-point shooting.

So far free-agency has not been kind to the Hornets; they lost veteran power forward Josh McRoberts to the Miami Heat Monday. Though no veteran can sign a contract before the NBA moratorium ends Thursday, sources confirmed McRoberts has agreed to terms on a deal that would pay him about $23 million over the next four seasons.

One of the things the Hornets will lose in McRoberts – ball-handling and passing from the frontcourt – are Hayward strengths. His 5.2 assists per game ranked 26th among NBA players. Only three non-guards – LeBron James (6.4), Kevin Durant (5.5) and Joakim Noah (5.4) – averaged more assists last season.

Hayward, a former star at Butler, is capable of the occasional spectacular game. Against the Oklahoma City Thunder in January he scored 37 points on 13-of-16 shooting from the field and added 11 rebounds and seven assists. But he has clunkers, too: He scored seven points on 2-of-8 shooting in March against the Los Angeles Clippers (though he totaled 10 assists in that game).

The fit

Hornets owner Michael Jordan said at a charity event last month he hopes the team signs another "superstar" to complement the signing of Jefferson last season. Hayward is no superstar, but he would provide some things the Hornets lack.

As good a defender as small forward Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is, he’s no 3-point threat. He attempted 18 3s his first two NBA seasons, making three. The other alternative at small forward, former second-round pick Jeff Taylor, is rehabbing from a ruptured Achilles tendon suffered in January.

Hayward would need to be a starter, or at least play starter’s minutes, to justify the price it would inevitably cost to sign him away from Utah. But Kidd-Gilchrist averaged only 24 minutes as a starter last season. Keeping his minutes at roughly that next season would let him defend more aggressively, without concern about foul trouble.

Clifford and Cho have said the Hornets’ offense will run "inside-out," meaning the ball should always touch Jefferson’s hands in the lane on any non-fast break possession. Last season Jefferson averaged 22.5 points and 11.2 rebounds and was chosen third-team All-NBA.

The best way for the Hornets to help Jefferson score efficiently is surround him with shooters. Clifford often says your shooting is your spacing, as far as discouraging teams from double-teaming Jefferson.

Hayward mostly thrived in the three seasons he played with Jefferson in Salt Lake City before Jefferson left for Charlotte. Though his field-goal percentage slipped from 48.5 percent in that span to 43.5 percent, his scoring average rose each of those seasons from 5.4 ppg., to 11.8 to 14.1.

Jefferson and Hayward, by all accounts, collaborated well for the Jazz. Jefferson was expected to be part of the recruiting pitch the Hornets made to Hayward.

The cost

Hayward reportedly turned down a four-year, $48 million offer from the Jazz, so the Hornets acquiring him would be neither cheap nor fool-proof.

Jazz officials have indicated they’d match any team’s offer sheet. However, Hayward’s visits to Cleveland last week and Charlotte this week suggest the Jazz would have to be forced to hike Hayward’s salary beyond some undisclosed point.

The Hornets have a lot of cap space, at least about $15 million once the agreed-to trade with the Cavaliers eliminates $2 million for center Brendan Haywood from Charlotte’s books.

They will get additional cap relief once McRoberts signs with the Heat. However, they’ll likely need to sign another veteran big man in McRoberts’ absence and that’s not their only need; a veteran point guard to back up Kemba Walker is a must.

If the Hornets were to pay Hayward in excess of $12 million a season, as it seems they’d have to, they would be locked on him as their second-best player. It’s unlikely, assuming the Hornets retain Jefferson (who makes $13.5 million per season), they’d have much flexibility in the summer of 2015, when they’d also need to address Walker’s restricted free-agency.

Under NBA rules, the maximum contract the Jazz could provide Hayward is $85 million over five years. Another NBA team could sign him for, at most, four years and $63 million.

The Hornets would have the cap flexibility to offer the max. But the Jazz, with about $30 million in cap space, has abundant flexibility to retain a young star.

Assuming Hayward wants to be here, the Hornets would have two options:

1. Approach the Jazz about a sign-and-trade, which would send assets like players or future draft picks to Salt Lake City to acquire Hayward.

2. Attack the Jazz with an offer sheet as soon as the NBA moratorium ends Thursday to test Utah’s willingness to match.

Either strategy gets expensive. The Jazz would logically get tough in a sign-and-trade negotiation, asking for multiple draft picks, young prospects and perhaps that the Hornets accept a bad veteran contract.

An offer sheet creates risk of overpaying for a non-superstar free agent and the strong possibility the Jazz match after tying up Hornets resources for as many as three days.

The history of this franchise is not encouraging regarding offer sheets. Since the Bobcats’ inception in 2004, they tried it twice with Cleveland’s Anderson Varejao and (then) Houston’s Carl Landry.

Both the Cavs and Rockets matched, making for moot exercises.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/07/08/ ... rylink=cpy
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#328 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:24 pm

He knows nothing. After 2 days of Hayward. He comes up zeros.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#329 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:32 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:The argument for the Charlotte Hornets going all-in to sign restricted Utah Jazz free agent Gordon Hayward:

He’s a multi-skill small forward who averaged 16.2 points, 5.2 assists and 5.1 rebounds last season…At 6-foot-8, he has above-average height for his position, something Hornets coach Steve Clifford desires…He has already played three seasons in Utah with center Al Jefferson, the player through which the Hornets’ offense runs.

The argument against the Hornets going all-in to sign Hayward:

His field-goal percentage has fallen in each of his four NBA seasons, from 48.5 percent as a rookie to 41.3 percent last season…Signing Hayward to an offer sheet (Thursday at the earliest) could tie up most of the Hornets’ cap room for as much as three days with the Jazz holding the option to match…Utah has a reported $30 million in cap space and Jazz officials have indicated they’d match any offer for Hayward.

The Hornets spent Monday and Tuesday hosting Hayward, 24, in what amounted to an NBA-style recruiting visit. This franchise has traditionally been low-key in recruiting free agents. However, Hayward’s visit, organized by general manager Rich Cho, was trumpeted with "Welcome Gordon Hayward family" messages on the marquee outside Time Warner Cable Arena and on video screens throughout the building.

Hayward’s recruitment was important enough that coach Steve Clifford left summer-league practice early Monday afternoon to attend a dinner with Haywood. Clifford also wasn’t at morning practice Tuesday when media was ushered into the practice gym.

Wing shooting and scoring appeared to be the Hornets’ top need when the 43-29 regular season ended in April. That was partially addressed in the draft when the Hornets selected shooting guard P.J. Hairston. But adding a player like Hayward would upgrade a roster in which starters Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Gerald Henderson don’t stretch defenses with their 3-point shooting.

So far free-agency has not been kind to the Hornets; they lost veteran power forward Josh McRoberts to the Miami Heat Monday. Though no veteran can sign a contract before the NBA moratorium ends Thursday, sources confirmed McRoberts has agreed to terms on a deal that would pay him about $23 million over the next four seasons.

One of the things the Hornets will lose in McRoberts – ball-handling and passing from the frontcourt – are Hayward strengths. His 5.2 assists per game ranked 26th among NBA players. Only three non-guards – LeBron James (6.4), Kevin Durant (5.5) and Joakim Noah (5.4) – averaged more assists last season.

Hayward, a former star at Butler, is capable of the occasional spectacular game. Against the Oklahoma City Thunder in January he scored 37 points on 13-of-16 shooting from the field and added 11 rebounds and seven assists. But he has clunkers, too: He scored seven points on 2-of-8 shooting in March against the Los Angeles Clippers (though he totaled 10 assists in that game).

The fit

Hornets owner Michael Jordan said at a charity event last month he hopes the team signs another "superstar" to complement the signing of Jefferson last season. Hayward is no superstar, but he would provide some things the Hornets lack.

As good a defender as small forward Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is, he’s no 3-point threat. He attempted 18 3s his first two NBA seasons, making three. The other alternative at small forward, former second-round pick Jeff Taylor, is rehabbing from a ruptured Achilles tendon suffered in January.

Hayward would need to be a starter, or at least play starter’s minutes, to justify the price it would inevitably cost to sign him away from Utah. But Kidd-Gilchrist averaged only 24 minutes as a starter last season. Keeping his minutes at roughly that next season would let him defend more aggressively, without concern about foul trouble.

Clifford and Cho have said the Hornets’ offense will run "inside-out," meaning the ball should always touch Jefferson’s hands in the lane on any non-fast break possession. Last season Jefferson averaged 22.5 points and 11.2 rebounds and was chosen third-team All-NBA.

The best way for the Hornets to help Jefferson score efficiently is surround him with shooters. Clifford often says your shooting is your spacing, as far as discouraging teams from double-teaming Jefferson.

Hayward mostly thrived in the three seasons he played with Jefferson in Salt Lake City before Jefferson left for Charlotte. Though his field-goal percentage slipped from 48.5 percent in that span to 43.5 percent, his scoring average rose each of those seasons from 5.4 ppg., to 11.8 to 14.1.

Jefferson and Hayward, by all accounts, collaborated well for the Jazz. Jefferson was expected to be part of the recruiting pitch the Hornets made to Hayward.

The cost

Hayward reportedly turned down a four-year, $48 million offer from the Jazz, so the Hornets acquiring him would be neither cheap nor fool-proof.

Jazz officials have indicated they’d match any team’s offer sheet. However, Hayward’s visits to Cleveland last week and Charlotte this week suggest the Jazz would have to be forced to hike Hayward’s salary beyond some undisclosed point.

The Hornets have a lot of cap space, at least about $15 million once the agreed-to trade with the Cavaliers eliminates $2 million for center Brendan Haywood from Charlotte’s books.

They will get additional cap relief once McRoberts signs with the Heat. However, they’ll likely need to sign another veteran big man in McRoberts’ absence and that’s not their only need; a veteran point guard to back up Kemba Walker is a must.

If the Hornets were to pay Hayward in excess of $12 million a season, as it seems they’d have to, they would be locked on him as their second-best player. It’s unlikely, assuming the Hornets retain Jefferson (who makes $13.5 million per season), they’d have much flexibility in the summer of 2015, when they’d also need to address Walker’s restricted free-agency.

Under NBA rules, the maximum contract the Jazz could provide Hayward is $85 million over five years. Another NBA team could sign him for, at most, four years and $63 million.

The Hornets would have the cap flexibility to offer the max. But the Jazz, with about $30 million in cap space, has abundant flexibility to retain a young star.

Assuming Hayward wants to be here, the Hornets would have two options:

1. Approach the Jazz about a sign-and-trade, which would send assets like players or future draft picks to Salt Lake City to acquire Hayward.

2. Attack the Jazz with an offer sheet as soon as the NBA moratorium ends Thursday to test Utah’s willingness to match.

Either strategy gets expensive. The Jazz would logically get tough in a sign-and-trade negotiation, asking for multiple draft picks, young prospects and perhaps that the Hornets accept a bad veteran contract.

An offer sheet creates risk of overpaying for a non-superstar free agent and the strong possibility the Jazz match after tying up Hornets resources for as many as three days.

The history of this franchise is not encouraging regarding offer sheets. Since the Bobcats’ inception in 2004, they tried it twice with Cleveland’s Anderson Varejao and (then) Houston’s Carl Landry.

Both the Cavs and Rockets matched, making for moot exercises.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/07/08/ ... rylink=cpy



Either strategy gets expensive. The Jazz would logically get tough in a sign-and-trade negotiation, asking for multiple draft picks, young prospects and perhaps that the Hornets accept a bad veteran contract.


He is aware that we are pursuing Gordon Hayward and not Carmelo Anthony, right?
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#330 » by ARHornet » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:41 pm



Do we really view Hayward as a small forward? I always considered him a shooting guard.

I'm much less interested if we are signing him to play the SF spot and not as a SG.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#331 » by KembaWalker » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:43 pm

its painful to watch a beat writer without a source. what a load of fluff.

between this and

[tweet]https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell/status/486535330053357568[/tweet]
this

i just feel bad for the guy. I'm also jealous that he probably makes more money than me to do this.

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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#332 » by JDR720 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:43 pm

ARHornet wrote:


Do we really view Hayward as a small forward? I always considered him a shooting guard.

I'm much less interested if we are signing him to play the SF spot and not as a SG.

probably better suited to play SG, he has a very small wingspan for his height
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#333 » by JDR720 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:51 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/486658434528722944[/tweet]
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#334 » by JDR720 » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:53 pm

So we really want him, the Jazz really want him.......i cant see us getting him for a reasonable price
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#335 » by Dancingpanda » Tue Jul 8, 2014 11:56 pm

JDR720 wrote:
ARHornet wrote:


Do we really view Hayward as a small forward? I always considered him a shooting guard.

I'm much less interested if we are signing him to play the SF spot and not as a SG.

probably better suited to play SG, he has a very small wingspan for his height


He would better fit with our team as a SG
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#336 » by catch20two » Wed Jul 9, 2014 12:07 am

Cho need to leave this Hayward cat alone. We got bigger and better fish to fry at a cheaper price. Here goes his infatuation taking over again. That whole meeting was a waste of time and giving Hayward a offer sheet will be a waste of time.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#337 » by Fred Williamson » Wed Jul 9, 2014 12:08 am

the thoughts of having the incredibly average Gordon Hayward at SG on this team (or at SF for that matter and therefore taking over MKGs spot) and paying him 16 million per year, just frightens me.

I actually rather have Stephenson. At least Stephenson has the potential to be a hit (or miss) while Hayward and his huge contract are going to make us the everlasting 4th/5th seed team.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#338 » by MasterIchiro » Wed Jul 9, 2014 12:08 am

JDR720 wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/486658434528722944[/tweet]


In other words, there is some consensus on the contract terms but Cho has been unable to compel the Jazz to agree to a sign-and-trade.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#339 » by JDR720 » Wed Jul 9, 2014 12:10 am

Fred Williamson wrote:the thoughts of having the incredibly average Gordon Hayward at SG on this team (or at SF for that matter and therefore taking over MKGs spot) and paying him 16 million per year, just frightens me.

I actually rather have Stephenson.

Gordon is above average i'd say and he has a good amount of potential.....if you want an incredibly average SG go look at Gerald Henderson
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#340 » by MasterIchiro » Wed Jul 9, 2014 12:11 am

In essence, now that Hayward is leaving without an offer, Cho did not do legwork on a sign & trade prior to this visitation. So was he working on trades since July 1st like that one leak supposedly suggested or was the MOTHER **** not working on trades?
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