Offseason 2025 Thread

[MasterIchiro]

The point that more playmaking is needed is accurate. I really like Edgecombe, but if he never develops a reliable handle he's a role player with limited playmaking ability. That's not ideal, we need someone that can run the offense when LaMelo is out. I don't know how we acquire that player, but Peterson should try whatever angle he can to trade up for Harper.

Agreed, and since I've ruled out a trade up for Harper absent Miller, I have my sights on Fears. He's the next high upside lead guard after Harper.

[MasterIchiro]

I look at the Spurs and I'm watching how they're building. They're relevant because they're very carefully, methodically building around a special, very unique piece. Every choice is critical because you don't want to miss an opportunity to build around a generational player.

Mavs have a long road ahead with Flagg, but we could monitor them as well.

The Spurs build stands out for their high priority placed on playmaking.

They drafted and developed Sochan as a point forward.

They gave on-ball reps as they developed Vassell.

They took Wemby.

Then signed Chris Paul.

Then drafted Stephon Castle.

Then traded for D. Fox.

Now that Chris Paul is leaving, they could draft Harper.

Harper - Fox - Castle

Last year was Paul - Fox - Castle.

Their roster is deep with playmakers.

Ours is barren.

I would feel great about a trio of LaMelo - Mann - Fears/Harper.

Playmaking is a currency.

I'd even feel great about Melo - Jrue - Mann - Fears.

It's a team sport and the Spurs have always exemplified good team basketball since Tony Parker and Manu.

Their players know how to move with or without the ball and how to create shots for themselves and others.

No standing around the 3 point line. It's too predictable.

The Spurs are relevant because they won a lucky lottery and also got lucky again and won Harper, and that's it. Nothing methodical or skilled about what they are doing. They would have a worse future than us if they didn't win that lottery.

You've missed my main point. Regardless of overnight luck and 3 consecutive lotto wins, the Spurs have placed a high value on playmaking for position.

I do not see Hornets fans placing the same value on playmaking.

Or else why draft Salaün? He is useless as a playmaker.

The board is mostly for VJ, and that's an issue with him. I don't think the Spurs would ever pick a player like him. Even if we swapped places in the draft. They'd probably favor someone like Kon.

[Braggins]

Spoiler:

I look at the Spurs and I'm watching how they're building. They're relevant because they're very carefully, methodically building around a special, very unique piece. Every choice is critical because you don't want to miss an opportunity to build around a generational player.

Mavs have a long road ahead with Flagg, but we could monitor them as well.

The Spurs build stands out for their high priority placed on playmaking.

They drafted and developed Sochan as a point forward.

They gave on-ball reps as they developed Vassell.

They took Wemby.

Then signed Chris Paul.

Then drafted Stephon Castle.

Then traded for D. Fox.

Now that Chris Paul is leaving, they could draft Harper.

Harper - Fox - Castle

Last year was Paul - Fox - Castle.

Their roster is deep with playmakers.

Ours is barren.

I would feel great about a trio of LaMelo - Mann - Fears/Harper.

Playmaking is a currency.

I'd even feel great about Melo - Jrue - Mann - Fears.

It's a team sport and the Spurs have always exemplified good team basketball since Tony Parker and Manu.

Their players know how to move with or without the ball and how to create shots for themselves and others.

No standing around the 3 point line. It's too predictable.

The Spurs are relevant because they won a lucky lottery and also got lucky again and won Harper, and that's it. Nothing methodical or skilled about what they are doing. They would have a worse future than us if they didn't win that lottery.

You've missed my main point. Regardless of overnight luck and 3 consecutive lotto wins, the Spurs have placed a high value on playmaking for position.

I do not see Hornets fans placing the same value on playmaking.

Or else why draft Salaün? He is useless as a playmaker.

The board is mostly for VJ, and that's an issue with him. I don't think the Spurs would ever pick a player like him. Even if we swapped places in the draft. They'd probably favor someone like Kon.

Its a bigger issue for the other two guys getting most of the buzz for their pick (Ace/Tre). The playmakers are Demin, Jaku, and to a lesser extent Fears.

[MasterIchiro]

Spoiler:

The Spurs are relevant because they won a lucky lottery and also got lucky again and won Harper, and that's it. Nothing methodical or skilled about what they are doing. They would have a worse future than us if they didn't win that lottery.

You've missed my main point. Regardless of overnight luck and 3 consecutive lotto wins, the Spurs have placed a high value on playmaking for position.

I do not see Hornets fans placing the same value on playmaking.

Or else why draft Salaün? He is useless as a playmaker.

The board is mostly for VJ, and that's an issue with him. I don't think the Spurs would ever pick a player like him. Even if we swapped places in the draft. They'd probably favor someone like Kon.

Its a bigger issue for the other two guys getting most of the buzz for their pick (Ace/Tre). The playmakers are Demin, Jaku, and to a lesser extent Fears.

Ace, Tre, VJ - they all profile more as finishers than initiators.

One route could be to select one of the above if there is a plan in place to get back into the lottery for Jaku or Demin.

But that pathway seems roundabout given Hornets could just stay put and select Fears.

[fatlever]

reminder

offseason thread = place to discuss big picture team building, free agency
general draft thread = place to discuss general draft info, general draft strategy
fake trade thread = place to discuss make believe trades or trade rumors
general nba thread = place to discuss general nba info, other teams
player specific thread = deep dive, player info, rumors on that player

[luciano-davidwesley]

I look at the Spurs and I'm watching how they're building. They're relevant because they're very carefully, methodically building around a special, very unique piece. Every choice is critical because you don't want to miss an opportunity to build around a generational player.

Mavs have a long road ahead with Flagg, but we could monitor them as well.

The Spurs build stands out for their high priority placed on playmaking.

They drafted and developed Sochan as a point forward.

They gave on-ball reps as they developed Vassell.

They took Wemby.

Then signed Chris Paul.

Then drafted Stephon Castle.

Then traded for D. Fox.

Now that Chris Paul is leaving, they could draft Harper.

Harper - Fox - Castle

Last year was Paul - Fox - Castle.

Their roster is deep with playmakers.

Ours is barren.

I would feel great about a trio of LaMelo - Mann - Fears/Harper.

Playmaking is a currency.

I'd even feel great about Melo - Jrue - Mann - Fears.

It's a team sport and the Spurs have always exemplified good team basketball since Tony Parker and Manu.

Their players know how to move with or without the ball and how to create shots for themselves and others.

No standing around the 3 point line. It's too predictable.

Lol the Spurs have had everything fall into their lap.

Pick 1, pick 4, pick 2 gifted to them in consecutive drafts. Fox throwing a temper tantrum at Sacramento.

They've truly been kissed on the d*ck and they've done nothing remotely impressive at all other than get lucky multiple, multiple times.

[luciano-davidwesley]

You're right that they're still building, but IMO their recent efforts to add playmaking were engineered to help address a playmaking deficit that they themselves created (kind of the opposite of your point that they have historically been about playmaking). They went without a true starting caliber playmaking PG for multiple seasons, and Sochan is just not a playmaker and in hindsight was very ill suited for the role they were trying to shoehorn him into.

Sochan is probably not a longterm core piece for them. I can see them cycling out some of these guys, but they're going to run with Harper, Fox, and Castle with Wemby. Hard for teams to match that level of playmaking. We are far far behind, and currently distracted by prospects who couldn't run offense in a PG situation.

On the plus side, they acquired pretty much all of the players you are talking about in a 12 month period (other than Wemby). Not like this was some long time scheduled master strategy.

And all they needed was to get the top pick with a generational player, then moving up to #4 the next draft, then moving up again to #2 the next draft.

Guess we'll just need to do that.

Note for self. Just try harder on draft lottery night.

Edit: Sorry Fats only saw your post after I'd already quoted earlier posts.

[fatlever]

Sochan is probably not a longterm core piece for them. I can see them cycling out some of these guys, but they're going to run with Harper, Fox, and Castle with Wemby. Hard for teams to match that level of playmaking. We are far far behind, and currently distracted by prospects who couldn't run offense in a PG situation.

On the plus side, they acquired pretty much all of the players you are talking about in a 12 month period (other than Wemby). Not like this was some long time scheduled master strategy.

And all they needed was to get the top pick with a generational player, then moving up to #4 the next draft, then moving up again to #2 the next draft.

Guess we'll just need to do that.

Note for self. Just try harder on draft lottery night.

Edit: Sorry Fats only saw your post after I'd already quoted earlier posts.

No worries. Just didn't need this thread to derail into a Spurs thread or a draft thread. Not the purpose.

[Bassman]

I will say that MasterIchiro has an excellent point about playmaking. The NBA is always a trending league, and the hottest trend today is having teams built like our two finals contenders. Five guys playing fast, quickness, quick ball movement and making plays for each other, smothering defense using same speedy players, quality depth at reasonable prices.

[KembaWalker]

I don’t think these teams indicate a new meta the same way Boston/Dallas wasn’t a new meta.

The only thing resembling an meta that I see is getting a bunch of talent and surviving with that talent to the postseason without catastrophic injury and further not suffering any catastrophic injury during any of the series. And hope the other teams do. If you do all that you have as good a chance as anyone.

That’s the main reason I’m so down on this iteration, it’s bad enough that the talent level isn’t anywhere close to where it needs to be but the health is just as important. We’re down half a roster fewer games into the regular season than these teams are playing in condensed scheduled playoffs after completing a full season. It’s not gonna work out

[fatlever]

I will say that MasterIchiro has an excellent point about playmaking. The NBA is always a trending league, and the hottest trend today is having teams built like our two finals contenders. Five guys playing fast, quickness, quick ball movement and making plays for each other, smothering defense using same speedy players, quality depth at reasonable prices.

I think we all agree or should at least all agree that this team desperately needs more playmakers on the team. Whether we do it through the draft free agency through a trade, we cannot go into the season with melo As the only legitimate playmaker. We have no idea what the health of mann really is or whether or not he'll even be back. We're not entirely sure if the front office prioritizes playmaking or not. The acquisitions made last summer don't necessarily reflect that. It was all about hustle and Hornets DNA. but I want to start adding highly skilled smart basketball players to this roster. Something we desperately lack.

[MasterIchiro]

I will say that MasterIchiro has an excellent point about playmaking. The NBA is always a trending league, and the hottest trend today is having teams built like our two finals contenders. Five guys playing fast, quickness, quick ball movement and making plays for each other, smothering defense using same speedy players, quality depth at reasonable prices.

I think we all agree or should at least all agree that this team desperately needs more playmakers on the team. Whether we do it through the draft free agency through a trade, we cannot go into the season with melo As the only legitimate playmaker. We have no idea what the health of mann really is or whether or not he'll even be back. We're not entirely sure if the front office prioritizes playmaking or not. The acquisitions made last summer don't necessarily reflect that. It was all about hustle and Hornets DNA. but I want to start adding highly skilled smart basketball players to this roster. Something we desperately lack.

Why couldn't we assign high priority to playmaking through this draft? You left that out.

*edit: I see draft now as part of a run-on sentence.

To clarify, I'm not saying get lucky like the Spurs. I'm encouraging the fanbase to weigh playmaking heavier. I don't care how they got there or how long it took. We have been historically devaluing playmaking as an organization.

[LofJ]

You don't even have to be an elite playmaker honestly. The criteria should be are you a willing passer that makes smart plays? If yes you pass the test, if not best to stay away.

Edit: This basically removes Ace (and Tre to a lesser extent) as a possibility and elevates Jaku, Edgecombe, and Fear.

[MasterIchiro]

You don't even have to be an elite playmaker honestly. The criteria should be are you a willing passer that makes smart plays? If yes you pass the test, if not best to stay away.

Edit: This basically removes Ace (and Tre to a lesser extent) as a possibility and elevates Jaku, Edgecombe, and Fear.

I think as teams leveraged 3 point accuracy over position standards, and teams profiled stretch 4 and 5, some organizations lost sight of playmaking over position.

Playmaking above position can be leveraged just like stretch bigs. The Pacers have 2 PG in their starting lineup, and Siakam is a strong playmaker. Nesmith and Turner are more like you described. They play hard both ends, they can space, and they're willing passers and capable ballhandlers. We've already drafted a player who's incapable as a ballhandler and who can't get anywhere with the ball in his hands. It weakens the team concept.

[fatlever]

I will say that MasterIchiro has an excellent point about playmaking. The NBA is always a trending league, and the hottest trend today is having teams built like our two finals contenders. Five guys playing fast, quickness, quick ball movement and making plays for each other, smothering defense using same speedy players, quality depth at reasonable prices.

I think we all agree or should at least all agree that this team desperately needs more playmakers on the team. Whether we do it through the draft free agency through a trade, we cannot go into the season with melo As the only legitimate playmaker. We have no idea what the health of mann really is or whether or not he'll even be back. We're not entirely sure if the front office prioritizes playmaking or not. The acquisitions made last summer don't necessarily reflect that. It was all about hustle and Hornets DNA. but I want to start adding highly skilled smart basketball players to this roster. Something we desperately lack.

Why couldn't we assign high priority to playmaking through this draft? You left that out.

*edit: I see draft now as part of a run-on sentence.

To clarify, I'm not saying get lucky like the Spurs. I'm encouraging the fanbase to weigh playmaking heavier. I don't care how they got there or how long it took. We have been historically devaluing playmaking as an organization.

Sorry I'm dictating everything so sometimes stuff get left out and run on a little bit. Yes absolutely playmaking through the draft is a possibility. But I also agree with LOFJ that play making can simply be achieved by mindset of the players making that extra pass playing unselfishly. We did see that under JB, the mantra of drive pass or shoot but do it immediately. Unfortunately over the last four years we've added quite a few ball stoppers and low IQ offensive players to the roster some of which are gone some of which still remain. We have so many holes to fill and only a few ways to address that through the draft. We need shooters. Guys that can make the extra pass and play unselfishly. We need rim pressure. And on the other side of the ball we need someone who can defend the point of attack.

[Braggins]

Well put by Fats. This team has a lot of holes to fill. Flagg was the only prospect that checked literally every box. With everyone else you are picking and choosing which boxes to check.

I actually think VJ might be the best playmaker of the guys in the convo who aren't primary playmakers. Hes actually a good/smart passer, but primary playmaker won't be his role likely mostly because of lack of ball handling ability at this stage.

[MasterIchiro]

Well put by Fats. This team has a lot of holes to fill. Flagg was the only prospect that checked literally every box. With everyone else you are picking and choosing which boxes to check.

I actually think VJ might be the best playmaker of the guys in the convo who aren't primary playmakers. Hes actually a good/smart passer, but primary playmaker won't be his role likely mostly because of lack of ball handling ability at this stage.

I don't see a secondary playmaker there.

[LofJ]

Shams has said he expects this to be the most active off-season ever. I hope Jeff Peterson has some tricks up his sleeves.

[JDR720]

"Secondary playmakers" doesn't mean you need another player on the team that is a high assist guy, or even that your main guy is a high assist guy like Hali. It's more of a team mentality. The results that happen when you have multiple high IQ non-selfish players. They're, collectively, the secondary playmaker.

OKC doesn't have a high assist guy. SGA only averages 6.5 assists per game. Boston doesn't have a high assist guy. Tatum only averages 6 per game.

Melo is a Hali level passer. This team, however, has very few players like Siakam, or McConnell, or Nembard.

Besides Miller and Grant, we may actually have none of those types of players. Keep the ball moving, shoot, pass, don't be selfish.

Our roster is full of 1-way players (all-offense guards like Mann, all-defense guards like Okogie) players that as of now may as well be no-way players (Salaun) and maybe two/three others who may be useful on a team like Indy, even if they don't fit the exact mold (Miles/Mann/Mark).

We need to replace 5+ players on this team this offseason. Hopefully Peterson and Lee know what they're doing. Whether it's a rebuild/retool or an attempt to make the playoffs.

[JDR720]

Hopefully "Hornets DNA" means smart, high IQ, knows how to play etc. and not just "They try really hard."