Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3

[TinmanZBoy]

some people just have to target the coach and the star player of any team that lin played or plays for... it is the norm... don't be surprised

[13th Man]

some people just have to target the coach and the star player of any team that lin played or plays for... it is the norm... don't be surprised

This wasn't really about Lin. The talk was about Clifford playing MKG too many minutes, then it turned into having an opinion of Kemba being overplayed as well. It was pointed out the Kemba's minutes were fine. I simply provided some stats to show Kemba's minutes and production relative to other point guards in the league.

I am a Kemba fan and love his impact to this team but have been saying from day one that he's being overplayed. Nothing wrong with this observation if it can be backed up with some numbers.

[hood30]

Kemba should not be top 5 in the league in minutes...

He's not. He's not even in the top 10. He's averaging 35.8 MPG, 14th in the league, which is at or within 1 minute of what he has averaged the last three seasons before this season.

Sorry..I meant to say, top 5 amongs point-guards or guards...I heard it somewhere....The point I'm making is Clifford is over-loading these guys with unnecessary huge minutes..I could understand it when the game is very close and those guys are having great game, but even in games that doesn't warrant it, we see these guys get laced with huge minutes.

We all agree that Clifford had MKG playing too much minute way too soon...He was already coming back earlier than expected but to quickly throw him in like that with big minute load, considering how MKG plays, was totally foolishness by Clifford.

As I've stated in other thread, I would be shocked if this teams doesn't suffer more injuries if Clifford continues to play some of these guys big minutes...specially Kemba and Batum...I'm pretty sure one of them will eventually go down and lose significant games.

Batum and Kemba should had not been playing anywhere close to 40 minutes last night..this was one of the few games where the bench finally came alive and was playing well...Yet, Clifford still didn't trust these guys to give Batum/Kemba some rest.

[TinmanZBoy]

some people just have to target the coach and the star player of any team that lin played or plays for... it is the norm... don't be surprised

This wasn't really about Lin. The talk was about Clifford playing MKG too many minutes, then it turned into having an opinion of Kemba being overplayed as well. It was pointed out the Kemba's minutes were fine. I simply provided some stats to show Kemba's minutes and production relative to other point guards in the league.

I am a Kemba fan and love his impact to this team but have been saying from day one that he's being overplayed. Nothing wrong with this observation if it can be backed up with some numbers.

not you, not you

[TinmanZBoy]

Kemba is known to have a non-stop motor since the day he was drafted... coach knows his players' capabilities and limits

[13th Man]

Out of curiosity since this is a Lin thread, I ran the same stats for Lin per game against other PGs. Note that Lin is listed as a PG, so his stats will be compared against other PGs in the league.

Minutes - 29th
Scoring – 23rd
Assists – 35th
FG% - 25th
3 PT % - Did not qualify for espn.go stats site
FT % - 20th
Rebounds – 20th
Steals – 44th
Blocks – 3rd
TO – 24th
Asst/TO Ratio – 40th

So Lin was ranked better in 6 categories compared to minutes played, and worse off in 3 categories being: Assists, Steals and Asst/TO Ratio. The low assists # could be attributed to him playing SG half the time, this would obviously affect the Asst/TO # as well.

[TinmanZBoy]

Out of curiosity since this is a Lin thread, I ran the same stats for Lin per game against other PGs. Note that Lin is listed as a PG, so his stats will be compared against other PGs in the league.

Minutes - 29th
Scoring – 23rd
Assists – 35th
FG% - 25th
3 PT % - Did not qualify for espn.go stats site
FT % - 20th
Rebounds – 20th
Steals – 44th
Blocks – 3rd
TO – 24th
Asst/TO Ratio – 40th

So Lin was ranked better in 6 categories compared to minutes played, and worse off in 3 categories being: Assists, Steals and Asst/TO Ratio. The low assists # could be attributed to him playing SG half the time, this would obviously affect the Asst/TO # as well.

we all know lin's ability in steals... he is a more disciplined defender now in a disciplined defensive team, that's why we see the number drop....if you put lin back to the Rockets, the ball hunting team, lin's steal number will look a lot better...

[13th Man]

Good point. I was wondering why his steals numbers is so low this year, probably focusing more on staying with his man than taking gambles and possibly getting burnt.

[bws94]

Lin plays better when he makes 4-5 TOs. Not that making TOs is good, but Lin usually has higher assists, plays freer and shoots better when he's not too contained or thinking he has to take care of the ball and just goes for it.

[gafun]

Out of curiosity since this is a Lin thread, I ran the same stats for Lin per game against other PGs. Note that Lin is listed as a PG, so his stats will be compared against other PGs in the league.

Minutes - 29th
Scoring – 23rd
Assists – 35th
FG% - 25th
3 PT % - Did not qualify for espn.go stats site
FT % - 20th
Rebounds – 20th
Steals – 44th
Blocks – 3rd
TO – 24th
Asst/TO Ratio – 40th

So Lin was ranked better in 6 categories compared to minutes played, and worse off in 3 categories being: Assists, Steals and Asst/TO Ratio. The low assists # could be attributed to him playing SG half the time, this would obviously affect the Asst/TO # as well.

It would be more proper to compare Lin's starts as starter with other starter players' stats because their playtime and the level of competition are more similar. Then you would find Lin's stats as starter (even he played SG most of time) are much better than his overall stats - including pg% and 3p%. It does not mean he is better starter. It just means when he has more play time , he plays better. More important than the stats is the way he plays as pg, there are more teammates getting scoring chances because he is past first and shoot second type of player. Sometimes it does not work as well as iso , it depends on the teammate performances and the opponent defense rotations.

[Vae Victus]

MKG hurt ;(

Good for Lin in that he'll get his 30 mins a game back, bad in that we're back to Lin standing around at SG most of the time and 1 less running mate on the break. I loved watching these 2 guys run, its obvious that MKG wants to be unleashed but Kemba and Batum are more than content to plod it up.

[bws94]

Lin with MKG could have been very interesting. MKG, I think, should just write the season off and try to be as healthy and strong as possible next season. He may not get to play with Batum and/or Lin again because both may be gone next season. But, then maybe some others that are really good players will replace them.

As for Lin, unlike most fans of Lin I don't need to see him be a starting PG. He can start and play well at PG in a pinch if the starting PG or SG is injured and for as many games as you need him. And he'll get those opportunities. But, he is also a very effective player coming off the bench in a Ginobili type of role. I just really want Lin to be consistently in the closing lineup, no playing around with that. Here Lin is in it with MKG out definitely, but maybe spotty with him in. I think it is hard to juggle putting him in here, but he has produced so much that you don't want to have him out of it. And MKG and Lin together, both hustle guys that get down on the floor and sacrifice their bodies, but somehow Lin mostly remains on the court and not out for injuries, would be a joy to watch. It's just Lin's size, who do you take out for him? So that's the dilemma of Lin on Charlotte. Nothing else. Otherwise, I like him on Charlotte and wish he'd stay at least one more season. All this moving from one team to the other journeyman stuff isn't great and I think he's better than that.

[Snidely FC]

I enjoy Jeremy's style of play, driving, passing, pnr. I like watching him and enjoy his disposition as one of the public faces of this team. I think people continue to overlook Lin's overall value to a Michael Jordan owned franchise, both in terms of team personality (the hair deal with Hawes haha!) and as an ambassador of the game to 1/3 of the planet. Lin is a value-added member of the Hornets, worth multiples more than what the team might pay another PG. There is a reason MJ called Jeremy Lin the team's biggest acquisition of the off-season. If MJ is the shrewd brand manager his track record shows him to be, he should lock up Lin in CHA long term.

[13th Man]

I've come to grips that Lin will never be a good SG, his shot is just not good enough, it never has been. His style of play is more suited for PG, he plays his best when he gets to handle the ball. Coaches have transformed him into a combo guard and like him for his versatility but at some point I think Lin will have to man up and ask to be able to play the position where he's best at.

I think for his next choice of team, one of his priorities should be to play mainly PG, whether starting or coming off the bench, this is where his strength lies. If he's not able to handle the ball much, then he's just another mediocre filler with subpar shooting.

I'm not sure if this is because he's not asserting himself enough when on the court with guys like Batum or if the coach prefers Nic to handle the ball more. Btw, they are both similar players in that they both make things happen when having the ball but also with high TO rates, Batum actually turns the ball over even more than Lin per 48 mins. So Batum is more of a TO machine but people think that he's pulling a Lin whenever he does lol.

In any case, Lin needs to be in control more when he's the designated PG. He's already lost that role when on the court with Kemba or Roberts, if he can't be PG with Batum either then he's almost usless imo.

[bws94]

I've come to grips that Lin will never be a very good SG, his shot is just not good enough, it never has been. His style of play is more suited for PG, he plays his best when he gets to handle the ball. Coaches have transformed him into a combo guard and like him for his versatility but at some point I think Lin will have to man up and ask to be able to play the position where he's best at.

I think for his next choice of team, one of his priorities should be to play mainly PG, whether starting or coming off the bench, this is where his strength lies. If he's not able to handle the ball much, then he's just another mediocre filler with subpar shooting.

I'm not sure if this is because he's not asserting himself enough when on the court with guys like Batum or if the coach prefers Nic to handle the ball more. Btw, they are both similar players in that they both make things happen when having the ball but also with high TO rates, Batum actually turns the ball over even more than Lin per 48 mins. So Batum is more of a TO machine but people think that he's pulling a Lin whenever he does lol.

In any case, Lin needs to be in control more when he's the designated PG. He's already lost that role when on the court with Kemba or Roberts, if he can't be PG with Batum either then he's almost usless imo.

SG is something to fill in. He's not playing SG or PG when on with Kemba. And he has a concern at PG I'll mention in the next paragraph. Lin is playing a position the NBA doesn't define that I'll call off-ball facilitator guard (which is what Batum does mostly, but he's taller). He is called upon to be that facilitator when defenses load up on Batum or Kemba. When he is in the 2nd unit he is leader. And sometimes that means when he doesn't have the ball, but he still barks out orders, and you'll often see him pointing to guys where to look or throw the ball. Especially Lamb and Frank when they get into sticky situations. He doesn't have to do much of that with Batum or Marv.

As a PG honestly how does Lin do with a ball-hawking, Beverley, Westbrook when he buckles down on D, Bradley, Davidova, those types of guards? Traps? Slow playoff type defenses that sometimes trap or play full-court D? Does he have the ability to beat these enough to get to a spot to advance the ball? I think one of the things that has to be looked at honestly is Lin's play when space is taken away. In the Cavs game, not much space was taken away. Neither one of their guards ball-hawked Lin like Davidova (sp?) does who didn't play that game. Lin's game can be a thing of beauty when he has space and particularly in transition ball and with great PnR players. But he still struggles, I've observed, when the pressure is on much, much more than guys like Kemba, Irving, and others who can advance into their offense better due to their strong handles.

[13th Man]

^^ Some good points. I may be looking at this too one-dimensionally as others have mentioned that the game has changed more than having just your traditional pgs handle the ball. I think some of the frustration may be due to him not actually leading the 2nd unit when Batum is there and often times he becomes a bystander. This is supposed to the year for him to be able to "play his game", I just don't feel that it's happening I see him playing pg less than he does sg.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Lin with MKG could have been very interesting. MKG, I think, should just write the season off and try to be as healthy and strong as possible next season. He may not get to play with Batum and/or Lin again because both may be gone next season. But, then maybe some others that are really good players will replace them.

As for Lin, unlike most fans of Lin I don't need to see him be a starting PG. He can start and play well at PG in a pinch if the starting PG or SG is injured and for as many games as you need him. And he'll get those opportunities. But, he is also a very effective player coming off the bench in a Ginobili type of role. I just really want Lin to be consistently in the closing lineup, no playing around with that. Here Lin is in it with MKG out definitely, but maybe spotty with him in. I think it is hard to juggle putting him in here, but he has produced so much that you don't want to have him out of it. And MKG and Lin together, both hustle guys that get down on the floor and sacrifice their bodies, but somehow Lin mostly remains on the court and not out for injuries, would be a joy to watch. It's just Lin's size, who do you take out for him? So that's the dilemma of Lin on Charlotte. Nothing else. Otherwise, I like him on Charlotte and wish he'd stay at least one more season. All this moving from one team to the other journeyman stuff isn't great and I think he's better than that.

I think most Fans i've seen just want Lin to be PG and not a SG...I want him to be more involved wether it be SG or PG dont matter to me.

[lin is ok]

the unfortunate situation with MKG, i am actually sicken by the thought of it. That Hornets victory over Lebron's Cavs, was very much a Lin/MKGsainty show. Too bad we are not going anymore of that this season.

[kinein]

If Lin ever starts playing with that killer instinct he shows from time to time ... on a consistent every-game basis, then all bets are off. When he 2nd guesses himself, or willfully steps back from big shots or the spotlight thats when he starts to falter. Guy has talent and potential, its just whether he steps up to the plate every single game.

I do believe that inconsistent minutes, random benchings, dnps, injuries, all are factors that have affected his stat line but outside of those factors in all other cases - my original paragraph is my personal viewpoint.

[TinmanZBoy]

If Lin ever starts playing with that killer instinct he shows from time to time ... on a consistent every-game basis, then all bets are off. When he 2nd guesses himself, or willfully steps back from big shots or the spotlight thats when he starts to falter. Guy has talent and potential, its just whether he steps up to the plate every single game.

I do believe that inconsistent minutes, random benchings, dnps, injuries, all are factors that have affected his stat line but outside of those factors in all other cases - my original paragraph is my personal viewpoint.

have to agree with you... lin needs a killer instinct