The "Dude": The Mitch Kupchak Thread

[Bassman]

Without readdressing all the weak stuff from Mitch and his presser, here are my chief concerns going forward along with a few nuggets of hope:

> CONCERNS: No matter what team the Hornets put on the floor next year, this coach and his staff are NOT, ABSOLUTELY NOT the right group to develop them into contention. MJ lit the fuse that fired JB, and somehow the new hire got spooked by something he saw and bailed. Hiring Cliff was the equivalent of plugging a leak with an old wine cork you had sitting in a drawer, and used before to do the same thing. Gotta get a much better coach.

MITCH is who I’ve said he is; a guy who is risk averse, under the thumb of an owner who only gives a set amount of latitude, pacing his latter days in the business trying not to “blow it”. The mistake they are making, which now takes on the appearance of a slow motion train wreck, is to invest too much money into some marginal players like Oubre, while missing the boat on moving Rozier for anything close to his value.

LUCK…and a lot of it…will be required to get beyond 35 wins, much less past a play in level record. Amazing luck in the draft, a revived and head on straight Miles, a mature and determined LaMelo, all wild cards at this point. Which brings me to nuggets of hope:

MARK WILLIAMS has a chance to get some significant minutes to finish this POS season. He has shown real talent, flashes of potential to impact defensively, and offensive prowess for a young big. Next season could be a big stepping stone, if coupled with a stronger cast (dream we trade for a quality SG that can defend). I understand where some of the hope comes from in this front office. But it is shoestring hope if they don’t aggressively define the identity of this team, get a coach that can make it come together while REALLY developing our youth, and make some aggressive trades prior to next season.

[fatlever]

The negativity in here is off the charts!
We traded 2 mediocre role players for draft capital, playing time and future $.

Wrapping it up for me - An incoming top pick that has a high potential of being a real star , plus several over chances at getting another good player and the possible return of the teams second best player from last year could leave the chicken littles ITT with egg on the face and what should be (but probably won’t) little to cry about next season, lol.

The thread has pretty much turned into beating a dead horse and is feeling like we are at a funeral with grumpy uncles so I’m probably done with it until the draft when there is something more interesting and forward looking to discuss.
Have a nice weekend!

i hear ya. i know its alot me driving this.

i'm not even mad at the trades. i wasnt expecting better. its just the messaging around our vision/future thats making me lose it.

[bravor]

Yeah, I think people are underestimating the power of a top 4 pick. It will be easily our 2nd most valuable asset behind LaMelo. If you want to trade the pick you could probably acquire an allstar for the pick straight up.

i think many of us are beaten down by our decades of drafting failures that counting on anything from a top 10 lotto pick is wishful thinking. i'll believe it when we see it.

#2 Okafor
#5 Felton
#3 Morrison
#8 traded for JRich
#9 Augustin
#7 Biyombo
#9 Kemba
#2 MKG
#4 Zeller
#9 Vonleh
#9 Kaminsky
#2 LaMelo

we have hit on 2 out of 12 top 10 picks. 84% failure in terms of finding a difference maker with our top 10 picks.
1 out of 6 top 5 picks. 84% failure for top 5.

forgive me if i refuse to get excited about anyone we draft (no matter how high they are selected) until they prove otherwise.

Sorry, but the ones i underlined kinda prove otherwise.
You 'only' need three consecutive (4?) years of tanking to assemble a core. It failed mostly because of injuries, not because of potential. And injuries for the three players.
It's not like gsw had a shining curry from day one.

The main problem is not with the mkg/Kemba/Zeller picks, it WAS with the Vonleh/Kaminsky picks.
Knowing it also depends of the quality/depth of the drafts.

It's gonna be tough to convince me that the biggest failure for this franchise has been not to fully embrace the tank following Ball's draft. Instead many thoughts the team was legit despite the concerns (defense..) and you end up missing a true game changer for the frontcourt (Mobley). As facepalming as they are, it's just impossible for anybody not to pick Mobley when you are Charlotte if you have the opportunity. But those dont happen at #7 8 9 10 etc/

[yosemiteben]

SWedd I agree with your point that results matter and honestly that's why I'm ultimately out on the FO and coaching staff. I can usually see the logic of the various approaches we've taken, but they didn't work and we are where we are and I think the chickens are coming home to roost.

My outlier opinion is I definitely don't want to hear from either the owner or the GM. The proof is in the pudding, I don't care to hear from them.

Curious - are you saying you're OK with the Hornets being as historically hush-mouthed as they are (Miles and Bouk incidents come to mind, but day-to-day, it's a quiet org) or that you just don't care to hear the GM and/or Owner's opinion of the product they're putting on the floor? Not sniping - genuinely curious.

I think honestly both but was more saying the latter. I care about the product on the floor, and when it's not good I don't really care what they have to say about it.

Trade rumors and Danny Ainge style media stuff is fun for message boards but I wouldn't feel any better about the team if Mitch was doing a PR campaign about how close he was to moving guys.

I don't want my owner speaking at all, feel the same way about Tepper honestly. Hire a good GM and stay out of things.

[fatlever]

"You don't think about the deadline until a few hours before" - mitch

i missed this little gem. lol.

[SWedd523]

The negativity in here is off the charts!
We traded 2 mediocre role players for draft capital, playing time and future $.

Wrapping it up for me - An incoming top pick that has a high potential of being a real star , plus several over chances at getting another good player and the possible return of the teams second best player from last year could leave the chicken littles ITT with egg on the face and what should be (but probably won’t) little to cry about next season, lol.

The thread has pretty much turned into beating a dead horse and is feeling like we are at a funeral with grumpy uncles so I’m probably done with it until the draft when there is something more interesting and forward looking to discuss.
Have a nice weekend!

Maybe MJ should've bought a new horse so we wouldn't have to keep beating this one.

An incoming top pick that has a high potential of being a real star , plus several over chances at getting another good player

Ah yes, the standard Hornets talking point. Doing the same thing is going to be different this year guys. I swear!

[MPM]

SWedd I agree with your point that results matter and honestly that's why I'm ultimately out on the FO and coaching staff. I can usually see the logic of the various approaches we've taken, but they didn't work and we are where we are and I think the chickens are coming home to roost.

My outlier opinion is I definitely don't want to hear from either the owner or the GM. The proof is in the pudding, I don't care to hear from them.

Curious - are you saying you're OK with the Hornets being as historically hush-mouthed as they are (Miles and Bouk incidents come to mind, but day-to-day, it's a quiet org) or that you just don't care to hear the GM and/or Owner's opinion of the product they're putting on the floor? Not sniping - genuinely curious.

I think honestly both but was more saying the latter. I care about the product on the floor, and when it's not good I don't really care what they have to say about it.

Trade rumors and Danny Ainge style media stuff is fun for message boards but I wouldn't feel any better about the team if Mitch was doing a PR campaign about how close he was to moving guys.

I don't want my owner speaking at all, feel the same way about Tepper honestly. Hire a good GM and stay out of things.

For me, the former is the most frustrating. I think the FO owes it to the fans to be transparent and forthcoming about things like our lottery pick Bouk - both his DUI and doghouse stint in the G. The latter, for me anyway, is really just about bad times. When I'm on a plane and there's turbulence, I want the Captain to let me know why it's happening and how long he/she expects it to last (and, at the simplest, that he's aware there's turbulence and is handling it). Same deal with Mitch. I could extend the metaphor to his handling of the press conference, but I'm too lazy. So... Marks starting!

[JMAC3]

This is all irrelevant deflection lol. I like how you can't actually ever defend any of these decisions so you always end basically saying "ya, they did a dumb thing but who cares, they could have done an even dumber thing and maybe they'll do a smart thing in the future, so stop complaining".

Its not ok to just pass up adding talent when it falls in your lap. The stupid draft trade shouldn't be excused because they didn't make an even dumber Gobert trade or because Eason is only a bench player right now (in his rookie season). Thybulle having limitations to his game and not being perfect or an all-star doesn't mean he wouldn't have helped the team and that its excusable to leave him on the table when hes being offered, nor does the possibility of them adding a player in draft. The possibility of them drafting Wiseman has literally nothing to do with anything. These arguments/deflections are nonsensical.

I said the trade was bad. Not deflecting. We traded the 13th pick for a late late first and 2nds. I think most people will say that it was probably Kupchak worst move to date.

Is it worth bringing up every day though? Anytime something happens that is a little bit bad it sparks a chain reaction where every bad thing from the past is dug up.

"Hornets missed signing a gleague player that played 13 games for the Heat. We suck! and Mitch also picked Bouknight and messed up that trade for the 13th pick"....

That is the equivalent of taking the 35th pick and 2nd over Thybulle. You can have your opinions on if you prefer one over the other but nobody is going to sit here with a straight face and say Thybulle is dramatically more valuable than that. Same thing with Plumlee, do I think we could of gotten 2 2nds for him? Yes. Am I going to say fire the GM because he only got 1? Probably not.

Would you have rather traded Plumlee for Devonte Graham who is under contract for 2.5 years and 4 seconds. If so, then be mad. For me I would have rather just washed my hands, take the 1 second and move on.

[Braggins]

No one is as mad as they are right now or thinks Mitch should be fired because of the deadline moves in isolation. No one thinks the McDaniels trade is the worst deal ever or a fireable offense by itself. Its cumulative frustration from them making tons of bad moves building up over time to a boiling point. People are getting tired of seeing the same stupid **** over and over again.

Whenever they make their latest bad move its not going to get judged in isolation. It gets added to the massive pile of incriminating evidence and the main point is the broader pattern of incompetence, not any one individual move. You can point at a bunch of individual moves and say they are bad but not that bad, but thats missing the point and it doesn't erase the cumulative effect of all these screw ups (which is what ppl are frustrated about).

[SWedd523]

No one is as mad as they are right now or thinks Mitch should be fired because of the deadline moves in isolation. No one thinks the McDaniels trade is the worst deal ever or a fireable offense by itself. Its cumulative frustration from them making tons of bad moves building up over time to a boiling point. People are getting tired of seeing the same stupid **** over and over again.

Whenever they make their latest bad move its not going to get judged in isolation. It gets added to the massive pile of incriminating evidence and the main point is the broader pattern of incompetence, not any one individual move. You can point at a bunch of individual moves and say they are bad but not that bad, but thats missing the point and it doesn't erase the cumulative effect of all these screw ups (which is what ppl are frustrated about).

Agreed all. It's the totality of their moves since the Batum stretch and Hayward signing. Every decision since then is added to the composite view

[luciano-davidwesley]

No one is as mad as they are right now or thinks Mitch should be fired because of the deadline moves in isolation. No one thinks the McDaniels trade is the worst deal ever or a fireable offense by itself. Its cumulative frustration from them making tons of bad moves building up over time to a boiling point. People are getting tired of seeing the same stupid **** over and over again.

Whenever they make their latest bad move its not going to get judged in isolation. It gets added to the massive pile of incriminating evidence and the main point is the broader pattern of incompetence, not any one individual move. You can point at a bunch of individual moves and say they are bad but not that bad, but thats missing the point and it doesn't erase the cumulative effect of all these screw ups (which is what ppl are frustrated about).

Agreed all. It's the totality of their moves since the Batum stretch and Hayward signing. Every decision since then is added to the composite view

Imagine if this team didn't sign Hayward? We could have had a Cade, Mobley or Barnes instead we have a millstone contract still!

Watch them continue the middle build strategy this offseason. Only the Hornets, Wizards and Blazers are dumb enough to attempt to middle build. You're either a contender and a buyer, or rebuilding and a seller.

We're pretenders doing neither. 1 year rebuild will be the catch cry!

[Benjamin Linus]

I agree and I think everything ultimately goes back to MJ’s lack of patience

When you look at the Cavs and their rebuild - they sucked got the 8th pick and drafted Sexton. Sucked again got the 5th pick and drafted Garland. They didn't just stop there, they continued to lose and got the 5th pick and drafted Okoro. Then they kept on losing and got the 3rd pick and drafted Mobley. It took them four straight high draft picks to get two stars to build around. We get LaMelo and then immediately pick 11th and 13th the following years

Then when Cleveland uses their capspace they spend their money on young players like Jarrett Allen. When we have capspace we go after old guys at the end of their career like Al Jefferson and Gordon Hayward. MJ's just so damn eager to build a 34 to 43 win team

[LurkCobain]

Just look at the flowers, Mitch. Just look at the flowers.

[JMAC3]

You know when tanking is fun? Never. We are basically tanking one year for arguably the best prospect in the last 20 years and we still have people complaining how bad the team is, coaching is, players are, front office is... yet I see comments about how we should of tanked 3 years in a row. Does that sound fun? You think you would be fine with being this bad for 3 or 4 years in a row?

If that is what you want then say that but you don't get to not experience the **** of being unwatchable for years and then reap the benefits of the tank. That is like becoming a thunder fan today, like congrats you skipped the hard part.

[JMAC3]

No one is as mad as they are right now or thinks Mitch should be fired because of the deadline moves in isolation. No one thinks the McDaniels trade is the worst deal ever or a fireable offense by itself. Its cumulative frustration from them making tons of bad moves building up over time to a boiling point. People are getting tired of seeing the same stupid **** over and over again.

Whenever they make their latest bad move its not going to get judged in isolation. It gets added to the massive pile of incriminating evidence and the main point is the broader pattern of incompetence, not any one individual move. You can point at a bunch of individual moves and say they are bad but not that bad, but thats missing the point and it doesn't erase the cumulative effect of all these screw ups (which is what ppl are frustrated about).

Okay so if you aren't mad at him why are you doing exactly what I just said... which is bringing up all his bad moves. You are saying one thing and doing the other.

I think we can probably all agree these moves haven't worked out.
Signing Hayward
Trading the 13th pick.
Drafting Bouk/Kai.

Pretty much every other signing, trade or draftpick has been probably average to good. I am not saying you can't be upset at the bad moves, but if you are going to claim we aren't mad about the trade deadline then what caused the trip down memory lane to these bad decisions?

[fatlever]

i dont have the energy today to document the 20+ bad to horrible decisions mitch has made since taking over. its definitely not 3 or anywhere close to that number. kudos to anyone who feels like documenting them all out.

[HornetJail]

i dont have the energy today to document the 20+ bad to horrible decisions mitch has made since taking over. its definitely not 3 or anywhere close to that number. kudos to anyone who feels like documenting them all out.

Only the glaring obvious ones.

- Trading Dwight Howard for Mozgov, taking on an extra year for $18M for two crap 2nds , and receiving basically no cap relief in the present since Dwight took a $5M buyout from BRK anyway. Those 2nds were throw-ins in other deals.

- Hayward signing in a year where we obviously weren't going to have the talent to compete. Single-handedly put the Hornets back on the treadmill. A few less wins and we're in mix for Franz Wagner in 2021, who is arguably already better than a healthy Hayward.

- Stretching Batum in order to do the previous mistake, effectively paying Hayward $39M this year and last.

- Drafting Bouknight while kicking Monk to the curb. Objective waste of an asset. Much better uses for that 11th pick.

- Extending Rozier too early. Mitch painted himself into a corner gutting all our guard depth in 2021, which was an awful move for leverage in those extension talks. Rozier probably makes $20M plus if he was a FA last summer and we for sure try to bring him back, so it doesn't change too much but it's an example of Mitch's brain-dead GMing skills on all fronts.

- Complete inaction at gaining a veteran center worth anything. (Finally seems to be fixed moving forward with Mark) but he effectively wasted 2 "win-now" seasons pretending Plumlee, Zeller, and Biz were good enough.

- Clifford. I don't need to elaborate.

- 13th pick last draft. Currently the return is #28, #43, #52 in the upcoming draft + Bryce McGowens. I'm not so worried about missing out on Duren, with Mark already here. I don't like that SF is our biggest hole moving forward once Hayward is gone, and that AJ Griffin and Tari Eason were right there.

- His inaction at every trade deadline. If we're rebuilding we need bigger deals than Plumlee for a 2nd. If we're trying to win, we need more than 2nd+Ish for Trez, or picking up Brad Wanamaker for nothing. Consistent failures on that front. An average or below team should never be content with its roster. Never.

...

I'm sure there's plenty more, but that's what I came up with in like 15 minutes. Most of them simply stem from awful asset management or just inability to pick a damn direction

[fatlever]

Read on Twitter

?t=rOE0WKys2JE1sIUasFZHLg&various.

Wow at this quote from Cliff, says team was "trying to lose" the past 2 years and that's why they can't win now.

They won 43 gms last year lol. He's off his rocker. Put him out to pasture.

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[CuseMayne]

Read on Twitter

?t=rOE0WKys2JE1sIUasFZHLg&various.

Wow at this quote from Cliff, says team was "trying to lose" the past 2 years and that's why they can't win now.

They won 43 gms last year lol. He's off his rocker. Put him out to pasture.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM Forums mobile app

I think he's just generally saying that tanking teams can't expect to know how to win after blatantly tanking. He's defending the idea that they should still care about winning for this last stretch so that the young players know what it takes to win in this league.

[yosemiteben]

Read on Twitter

?t=rOE0WKys2JE1sIUasFZHLg&various.

Wow at this quote from Cliff, says team was "trying to lose" the past 2 years and that's why they can't win now.

They won 43 gms last year lol. He's off his rocker. Put him out to pasture.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Yeah dude that wasn't what he said or implied