2025 General Draft Discussion 2

[yosemiteben]

Can we at least agree that if we draft him and he gets randomly hot during a game that we call it Konvection Oven time

Pretty sure you gotta go with "Kon Artist" in that scenario.

[JustBuzzin]

#4 for Cam Whitmore/#10

I like Cam more than any prospect outside of Flagg/Harper

[yosemiteben]

And I disagree because I've heard people point to the 39 point game that ace had when Harper was out every bit as many times as I've heard people point about Kon's ACC tournament run. My point being, people can see what they want to see when they already have their mind made up.

I'd personally lean towards both of those three game samples being pretty impressive for both of them.

You just said you thought Harper was out a month, so no I don't think it is the same thing because you clearly didn't know the situation fully.

If it isn't obvious I don't really care about what they did in either of those stretches because they are small sample sizes. Hence why I have never used this before to tell everyone how good Ace is when he doesn't play with Harper... I just think it is funny it is being used over and over again to tell us why Kon has this elite upside.

FWIW, in case that's directed at me, I think that's the first time I referenced it. I very much agree that it's a small sample size and not probative or even particularly useful for projection, but it's also the only available sample size and seems relevant in response to the take of "teams just focused on Flagg and Kon had it easy."

But yeah I don't think it's on the mark to extrapolate that performance out and imply that he'd perform at that level all the time.

[KembaWalker]

Can we at least agree that if we draft him and he gets randomly hot during a game that we call it Konvection Oven time

Pretty sure you gotta go with "Kon Artist" in that scenario.

konflagration

[fatlever]

And I disagree because I've heard people point to the 39 point game that ace had when Harper was out every bit as many times as I've heard people point about Kon's ACC tournament run. My point being, people can see what they want to see when they already have their mind made up.

I'd personally lean towards both of those three game samples being pretty impressive for both of them.

You just said you thought Harper was out a month, so no I don't think it is the same thing because you clearly didn't know the situation fully.

If it isn't obvious I don't really care about what they did in either of those stretches because they are small sample sizes. Hence why I have never used this before to tell everyone how good Ace is when he doesn't play with Harper... I just think it is funny it is being used over and over again to tell us why Kon has this elite upside.

yep. I've said 1000 times over the past ten years I don't watch college basketball. I find it pretty tough to watch. And I don't have a team I care for. About him being out a month came directly from the interview I watched from his coach that was posted last night in the ace thread. His coach specifically said when Harper was "out for a month" Ace took on more of a scoring load and scored 39 points against Indiana et cetera. My bad for not fact checking that with basketball reference. fair enough.

I only pay attention to draft prospects once the season's over and look at guys that are in our range. even then it's really hard to fully form an opinion until I see these guys play in summer league and then training camp and first season.

Contrary to what you probably think I don't really have that strong of opinions about the four guys in our draft range. I'm pretty happy with all 4 of them although I have my preferences based on just what I enjoy watching as a fan - vj and kon/tre. I love watching guys play aggressive defense. I love shooters and I love smart basketball players that can pass. For me to like a player they need to have at least one of those traits. The more the better. I pretty genuinely hate watching selfish low iq basketball players. It's why I always hated Kelly Oubre for example. He just wasn't fun for me to watch, Except for the four times a year that he got hot. I don't particularly enjoy watching Nick Smith junior play basketball for example. I find his style of play to be pretty insufferable. I love watching guys like moose, okogie and curry Our team last year, Even if they were borderline fringe rotation guys. Of the four guys in our range ace seems like the guy I will probably least enjoy watching play. Maybe I'm wrong. At the end of the day me watching Hornets is about entertainment more than anything.

[GiggitySmalls]

#4 for Cam Whitmore/#10

I like Cam more than any prospect outside of Flagg/Harper

I can get behind this

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[Bassman]

Latest updated mock draft from ESPN. Good details, juicy workout drama, and the seeming framework of how things could be going for the Hornets.

First, appears Ace Bailey is acting the diva. Apparently hasn’t accepted any workout invitations yet, other than planning to finally go to Philly late this week. His camp says (paraphrasing) “he’s a top 3 player and needs a team who will give him the room to become a star.” I guarantee you that is a Hornets turn off.

They say VJ is now the favorite in Sixers land. Some teams still really interested in Ace include the Pelicans and Wizards.

They have Charlotte taking K-Nipple. Say CLT and Utah really like him.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45515479/2025-nba-mock-draft-59-picks-trade-talks-heat-30-teams

[KingCat]

If Bailey is being a diva but Intel has it that he is the best player, then you still gotta take him imo. I'm sure this franchise still regrets allowing Kobe to pout his way to LA.

[fatlever]

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choices were made in this one

[KingCat]

A few days ago I was thinking this is one of the more quiet and boring draft cycles in the last couple of years. Thank God for the Kon to charlotte and diva Ace rumors to add the yearly spice and fire to this boards draft discussion

[fatlever]

A few days ago I was thinking this is one of the more quiet and boring draft cycles in the last couple of years. Thank God for the Kon to charlotte and diva Ace rumors to add the yearly spice and fire to this boards draft discussion

Last year was pretty boring because of where we were picking. I think almost all of us saw the draft as a 4 or 5 player draft with the cut off being right before our pick. And we almost all universally liked castle as a prospect with some division coming on between Reed, clingan, holland... But also we all expected reed to be gone by our pick anyway so it wasn't that heated.

There was obviously pretty big debate but only between two players Miller and Scoot

But this year definitely ranks up there with some of the better draft discussion years I can remember on the board. 2006 was still the wildest in my memory. And probably the next best was 2013 mkg draft

[MasterIchiro]

The suggestion that Sixers and Hornets are taking calls on 3 & 4 certainly adds intrigue because there is lack of consensus on picks 3-7.

Pelicans added a 1st (23) rumored to be looking to trade up from 7. Teams outside 3-4 seem to be targeting very specific prospects they worry will fall off the board before their selection.

Jazz, Nets, Wizards, Pelicans all need a franchise PG but the Spurs are rumored to be holding 2 with a Kung Fu death grip.

Their need for a PG1 conflicts with rumors Ace is the trade up target for the Pels. Meanwhile rumors swirl around the Nets looking hard at trading up for Fears. They have 4 first round picks - our GM's old team.

Something unexpected is bound to happen, right?

Suns are "drumming up interest" in KD in advance of the draft. Seems that could be just Suns front office managing expectations for fans for the inevitable KD to Miami for spare parts.

[JustBuzzin]

This Ace talk is him trying to get to a specific team who made a promise and he wants to play there.

I don't care what he wants if he's the best prospect on the board you take him. We can't afford to miss on the best prospect because of where he wants to play.

[Bassman]

Another very interesting article on ESPN, speaking of how college basketball programs changed their methodology to emulate NBA teams regarding training, preparation, etc. This has helped foreign players decide to attend universities instead of just play in overseas leagues. College helps them also prepare to acclimate to living in the U.S.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45533065/college-basketball-nba-draft-development-pipeline

Scouts, coaches all network and talk. I wonder if this Hornets regime has any contact with a particular strength coach?

And potential top-seven pick Jeremiah Fears benefited from weight-room sessions with Ty Terrell, Oklahoma's director of strength and conditioning, a role similar to the ones he had with the Washington Wizards and Atlanta Hawks.

[fatlever]

This was the no ceilings hornets debate

2025 NBA Draft Lottery Preview: Charlotte HornetsThe Charlotte Hornets have a chance to solidify their young core and truly accelerate their rebuild. Tyler Metcalf and Jam Hines look at some of their favorite 2025 NBA Draft options for the Hornets.

Tyler Metcalf and Jamaill Hines

Jun 17

 

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No Ceilings

No Ceilings NBA Draft

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Metcalf: This team is so frustrating. I get that injuries and turnover in the front office and coaching staff are a factor, but this team has no identity, and I’m not sure what they are aiming to achieve. The defense was bad, the offense was horrible, and the shooting was even worse. There are some foundational pieces that I like and theoretically fit together, but that gelling hasn’t happened yet. We saw last year that they prioritized upside and long-term potential over immediate impact and/or fit. Do you think they should take that same approach or steer a little more towards filling the gaps? There’ll be a lot of talent with the fourth pick; do you think there’s anyone that can allow them to kill two birds with one stone in terms of fit plus upside?

Jam: You eloquently summed up Charlotte’s season and asked the question that their front office should be asking themselves. Led by a potential superstar in LaMelo Ball, this roster has legitimate young talent that’s capable of making that next leap and helping end their playoff drought. Someone who fits their style, playoff push timeline, and still has legit upside would be ideal. V.J. Edgecombe and Khaman Maluach could be matches here. Both are two-way players who can immediately help defensively while impacting the game offensively without needing a ton of usage. They also both have scoring upside, although I trust Edgecombe’s more. Do those names align with what Charlotte is looking for? Is there a better prospect that fits the mold?

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Metcalf: Honestly, I have no clue what Charlotte is looking for. Based on their last few selections, I think they’d lean more towards size with upside. Maluach makes some sense to me, but the fourth pick would be REALLY high for me. I get the Edgecombe pitch, and while I think he’ll be a good player, it feels like settling to me. Based on their history, I’d be shocked if they passed on Ace Bailey if he were on the board. I’m not entirely sure that’s the best landing spot for him, but that could be an insanely fun trio to build with if they all hit their upside in Miller, Ball, and Bailey. The other name that I think deserves more consideration is Tre Johnson. I’m extremely high on Johnson, but I also get the concerns. They’d continue to struggle defensively, but I think a lot of the shot selection and decision-making concerns would go away quickly in a setting where he isn’t the obvious number one option. Any interest in those guys, or are you pretty set on Edgecombe? I think a sneaky option could be Kon Knueppel as well; any interest there?

Jam: I’m with you on all of those options and the rationale. Maluach at four is too high for me as well. Considering the Mark Williams-Lakers trade debacle and the likely interest teams will still have in him this summer, I just wonder if the potential need there pushes Maluach up on their board. I would rather just roll with Williams.

You can never have enough wings, especially wings with upside, so Bailey and Johnson make a ton of sense. Hmmm…Kon in Charlotte, that’s interesting! With his laser shooting, feel, and size, he arguably has the highest floor in the class outside of his former teammate, Cooper Flagg. If Charlotte believes there is more to unlock with Knueppel as a scorer and/or playmaker, the case becomes even more intriguing. Where are you with Kon in Charlotte and his upside?

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Metcalf: I really like Kon. If Ace and/or Tre are on the board, I think you have to go with one of them; if it’s between Kon and VJ, though, I think it’s a legitimate debate. The biggest sales pitch with Kon is the shooting. The Hornets were such a bad shooting team last year, and he’d immediately help that. He’s so much more than JUST a shooter, though. I think he has some intriguing second-side creation stuff with his ability to run a pick-and-roll and attack closeouts. The shooting threat will always draw long closeouts, but he can attack those and get downhill pretty effortlessly. He’s also really strong on the ball and rarely loses his composure in traffic. I am curious where you stand on the defense. All year, people have clowned his defense, but I don’t agree. He isn’t an elite athlete, so there is a real ceiling on it. However, he’s really strong, almost always where he needs to be, and moves his feet well. Am I being too generous?

Jam: I don't think you’re being too generous at all. Will he ever be a plus defender? Most likely not, but there is a path to at least becoming a net-neutral defender like you were laying out. He’s strong, fluid laterally (despite not being laterally quick), processes well, and he’ll compete on and off the ball. That’s just about all that you can ask for from an offensively tilted prospect with some defensive limitations like Kon. I think this conversation has really sold me on Kon in Charlotte. From the shooting and playmaking upside to his feel and connectivity, it’s a terrific match.

Metcalf: Look at that, salesman of the year. I know this is lottery-focused, but the Hornets also have the 33rd and 34th picks. Whether they stay there or use those to trade back up into the late first, are there any names there that get you excited or make a lot of sense for them?

Jam: There should be some fun names with their second rounders that address both fit and need. If Charlotte doesn't go with a big at #4, Yanic Konan Niederhauser makes a lot of sense. Mark Williams is likely still available, and Jusuf Nurkic isn't the long-term solution. Niederhauser brings positional size in a translatable play finishing-shot blocking role, and he could feast as the roll man for Ball. Shooting is always a need, especially on this squad, to allow Ball, Miller, and Bridges room to operate. Even if Knueppel is their first pick, how about going back to the shooting well with one or both picks? Koby Brea, Chaz Lanier, and Brice Williams are all dynamic shooters and shotmakers who can contribute immediately. Adding perimeter defense should be a priority as well. RJ Luis, Jamir Watkins, and Micah Peavy could be excellent options despite varying degrees of shooting reliability.

I know I kind of went all over the place, but are any of those names clicking here for you? Is there a need or position Charlotte should be targeting with either one or both of their second rounders?

Metcalf: I think that’s the most obvious spot for them to take a big with guys like Ryan Kalkbrenner, Maxime Raynaud, Niederhauser, and Bogoljub Markovic typically mentioned in that range. They may need to move up a few spots for some of those guys, but that’s the approach I would take. With their first pick, though, the Hornets are in a much better spot this year to take a safer swing on a perimeter player. It seems like all the buzz (pun intended) is that they’re in love with V.J. Edgecombe. It’ll be fascinating to see if he falls to them or if they end up having to move up for him. Tre Johnson and Kon Knueppel would be incredibly fun fits too, but if Edgecombe ends up in Charlotte, Hornets fans should be thrilled about his fit, upside, and work ethic.



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[JMAC3]

I feel like the term net neutral on defense is really misleading and can be used for any prospect.

Kyle Filipowski had good weight and was a smart player, are we selling him as a guy that can be net neutral? 3% def epm last year.
Dalton Knecht was sold last year as better because of his length and athleticism. 1% def epm.
Kispert, 37.5 inch vertical. Was a smart player right? 3% def epm
Grady Dick, good size, smart player. 9% def epm.
Jared McCain, sold as strong guard, played at duke high iq. 12% def epm.
Max Strus, physically probably similar 20% def epm.
Sam Hauser 19% def epm.
Grayson Allen 16% def epm.
Luke Kennard 18% def epm.

So you are telling me not only will he be better than all these guys defensively but he will be significantly better than them assuming 50% is net neutral.

[Rays Pompadour]

I tend to stay out of Kon debates because I'm a Blue Devil fan and therefore biased. But I watched Knueppel closely this past season and am convinced he is underrated as a defender. Foot speed, lateral quickness, overall athleticism are lacking compared to other prospects, but there is simply no replacing a player with above-average processing skills (which Kon has) who knows where to be and when. He has a thick body, so he won't get pushed around as easily as some of these spindly grasshoppers we drool over. And he can shoot. My gracious he can shoot. The Hornets won't need him to guard a player shooting from 30 feet. But Knueppel knows how to play team defense and that's where I think he'll succeed.

I still prefer Edgecomb, Johnson and Bailey over Knueppel. But those who didn't watch every single second of Duke basketball this past season like I did are missing the visible evidence of an ELITE shooting guard with size who is a well-rounded, heady basketball player who will only get better as his skill and man strength improve.

[JMAC3]

I tend to stay out of Kon debates because I'm a Blue Devil fan and therefore biased. But I watched Knueppel closely this past season and am convinced he is underrated as a defender. Foot speed, lateral quickness, overall athleticism are lacking compared to other prospects, but there is simply no replacing a player with above-average processing skills (which Kon has) who knows where to be and when. He has a thick body, so he won't get pushed around as easily as some of these spindly grasshoppers we drool over. And he can shoot. My gracious he can shoot. The Hornets won't need him to guard a player shooting from 30 feet. But Knueppel knows how to play team defense and that's where I think he'll succeed.

I still prefer Edgecomb, Johnson and Bailey over Knueppel. But those who didn't watch every single second of Duke basketball this past season like I did are missing the visible evidence of an ELITE shooting guard with size who is a well-rounded, heady basketball player who will only get better as his skill and man strength improve.

College defense is soooo very different than NBA though. College you can hide a player, teams can't shoot as well so having elite rim protection is even more valuable. In the NBA teams are going to be to hunt switches vs Kon or just attack him 1 on 1 with whoever is guarding him. Much harder to do that in college when most teams have maybe 1 guy on the roster they trust to be able to expose a bad defender, NBA bench players can drop 15 pts on you in a quarter.

Again, Knecht played at Tennessee and they were 3rd best defense in the country with him. He graded out as 8th worst defender in the entire NBA. It is just different.

[Rays Pompadour]

I tend to stay out of Kon debates because I'm a Blue Devil fan and therefore biased. But I watched Knueppel closely this past season and am convinced he is underrated as a defender. Foot speed, lateral quickness, overall athleticism are lacking compared to other prospects, but there is simply no replacing a player with above-average processing skills (which Kon has) who knows where to be and when. He has a thick body, so he won't get pushed around as easily as some of these spindly grasshoppers we drool over. And he can shoot. My gracious he can shoot. The Hornets won't need him to guard a player shooting from 30 feet. But Knueppel knows how to play team defense and that's where I think he'll succeed.

I still prefer Edgecomb, Johnson and Bailey over Knueppel. But those who didn't watch every single second of Duke basketball this past season like I did are missing the visible evidence of an ELITE shooting guard with size who is a well-rounded, heady basketball player who will only get better as his skill and man strength improve.

College defense is soooo very different than NBA though. College you can hide a player, teams can't shoot as well so having elite rim protection is even more valuable. In the NBA teams are going to be to hunt switches vs Kon or just attack him 1 on 1 with whoever is guarding him. Much harder to do that in college when most teams have maybe 1 guy on the roster they trust to be able to expose a bad defender, NBA bench players can drop 15 pts on you in a quarter.

Again, Knecht played at Tennessee and they were 3rd best defense in the country with him. He graded out as 8th worst defender in the entire NBA. It is just different.

Totally agree that college and pro defenses are different. The NBA is just hopelessly in love with the three point line. Hard to guard a dude who shoots it from Matthews. I also agree that Kon will get hunted, but I don't think he'll be the matador LaMelo Ball is. Kon will learn to switch effectively and play team defense. A say that because I believe Knuepple wants to play defense - I perceive that he loves the physicality of it. I don't think I can say the same about Bailey or Johnson. And, again, elite shooting.

[yosemiteben]

Again, Knecht played at Tennessee and they were 3rd best defense in the country with him. He graded out as 8th worst defender in the entire NBA. It is just different.

Knecht was never scouted to be even an average defender, all the scouting reports on him I've read said he was a bad defender at the college level. He's a slow processor and in many ways is like the opposite of Kon (poor production for most of his college career, much older, relied on his athleticism to get by, wasn't engaged on defense).