The Steve Clifford Thread 2.0 - Off the Cliff we go

[chellis]

At the end of the day the organization needs to be better at identifying and developing talent. Coaches typically don't want rookies who need time to develop because their job description is to win games. Going with unproven players who need time to develop and find their niche in the league isn't what a coach wants to do. You can see with the moves and picks we make that tends to be the case here. I think with this year us having a down year, we could swing for the fences with a pick and give him a few years to develop because overall the team showed early on they could be competitive.

[Eoghan]

Ask certain people who cover the Hornets and they will tell you that Steve Clifford is the single biggest asset for the franchise. Nationally, almost everyone speaks very highly of Clifford. If he was available for hire this summer he would no doubt get a head coaching job, if that was his desire.

Disinformation campaign by the rest of the league to keep franchises like Charlotte mired by sub par coaching. He's also from the Van Gundy coaching tree so of course people are going to crow about him, even though Van Gundy ball has never really accomplished anything.

NBA Finals?

This is symbolic of the Van Gundy system, just futilely holding on:

[yosemiteben]

I think with this year us having a down year, we could swing for the fences with a pick and give him a few years to develop because overall the team showed early on they could be competitive.

That's exactly where I'm at. Unique opportunity for what should be a playoff team to add what likely will end up as a solid lottery pick in hopefully a pretty good draft.

I like Cliff, I think he's an above average NBA coach and I think it would be foolish to fire him. What is bizarre about this team is it doesn't have his DNA, the defensive effort and intensity that has been the soul of this franchise since he arrived. Not being able to score in Q4 isn't all that new for us, but we typically have been able to grind out wins with defensive effort and we have been completely unable to do that this season.

We do not have the luxury of firing a coach one season removed from 48 wins and tied for 3rd in the conference. He gets more than one disappointing performance after that before he gets the ax.

[catch20two]

Clifford should be on the hot seat and should be strongly considered to be fired if we miss the playoffs this season in a weak Eastern Conference.

I just don't agree with firing him unless there's a surefire replacement available.

[Braggins]

I've never understood why Clifford gets so much praise around the league and from the national media. I don't care at all about what the media would say if we fired him or if some other team would hire him immediately. Having said that, I don't actually know if I think firing him at this point would be in our best interest. I do wish we would have went after Mike Malone when he was available, though. I sometimes wonder what kind of potential Silas has as a head coach, but idk.

[euphorbus]

Like any coach, Steve Clifford has strong points and weak points. I have been very vocal in pointing out the latter. The problem is that in order to bring stability and respectability to a franchise like the Charlotte Hornets, the team cannot afford to fire him. As disappointing as this season has been, the team does not want to go down the road of revolving coaches, where no one knows what to expect from year to year. That would be a self-inflicted disaster. Another year or two of no progress, of continued mediocrity or sub-mediocrity, then this discussion would be appropriate.

Among other things, he has little control over the kinds of injuries that have sidelined the Hornets this year and two seasons ago. He should not, as someone else opined, have so much control over the players brought in to fit his "system."

[TheKingofSting]

I'm sick of the firing Cliff would set us back narrative. The guy has been here almost four full seasons and we will have not made the playoffs 50% of the time and got swept in the first round and choked in the first round the other half. It's not like the guy has only been here a season. He has elevated the job for sure and kudos to him for that but if we want to actually progress to the next level then it is time to make a change.


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[316Hornets]

We should probably wait until Ewing gets a head coaching job somewhere before letting Cliff go or things could go from bad to worse.

[yosemiteben]

Spring and summer of 2015 all we heard over and over and over and over and over was how terrible a coach Cliff was, how he didn't understand the game, couldn't have a modern offense, couldn't adapt, etc.

The **** on Cliff shtick got real tired, and I thought after last season it was done. We know he can do well with talent, we've seen him do it. It's not his fault we missed the playoffs in 2014-15, he had a dysfunctional roster and extended injuries to Kemba, Al, MKG, Cody, Marv, and Biz, a dumpster fire in Lance, a completely useless rookie in Vonleh, and not much else on the roster. Acting like missing the playoffs that season was on him is absurd IMO.

[Braggins]

Spring and summer of 2015 all we heard over and over and over and over and over was how terrible a coach Cliff was, how he didn't understand the game, couldn't have a modern offense, couldn't adapt, etc.

The **** on Cliff shtick got real tired, and I thought after last season it was done. We know he can do well with talent, we've seen him do it. It's not his fault we missed the playoffs in 2014-15, he had a dysfunctional roster and extended injuries to Kemba, Al, MKG, Cody, Marv, and Biz, a dumpster fire in Lance, a completely useless rookie in Vonleh, and not much else on the roster. Acting like missing the playoffs that season was on him is absurd IMO.

So, do you not think its problematic that Clifford, A) Thinks size is what wins in the NBA and that small ball isnt viable and should only be used in emergency situations, B) Still almost always uses pre set rotations, usually wont adjust to other teams lineups, and generally doesnt show any creativity with lineups, C) At least for most of the season had us using a defensive strategy that left us vulnerable to 3 pointers at a time when most of the league is trying to shoot as many 3s as possible?

Im guessing you wanna blame our failure this season on Codys injury, but do you really think our record without Cody would have been so bad if Clifford would have been willing to use Frank at center from the beginning and was also willing to play small more? Clifford has done a very poor job utilizing this roster and the injuries and weak bench arent excuses for him when he had plenty of options that would have been better than doing things like running Hawes/Hibbert lineups. He did a pretty good job last season, but there have been tons of examples of bad coaching and games lost due to Cliffords poor decisions this season. Cliffords stubborness and ideological tendencies have contributed to our troubles.

[yosemiteben]

I haven't blamed this season on Cody, so maybe don't straw man me next time.

I think the lineup criticisms this season are generally by people that have not actually studied our lineups and how they've changed over the season. I'll leave it at that.

[Braggins]

I haven't blamed this season on Cody, so maybe don't straw man me next time.

Ok, but do you think Clifford managed the situation well? I think its pretty clear that he didnt and that it directly contributed to tons of losses, at least some of which could have been avoided. Cliffords fans like to just completely ignore how his decisions sometimes directly affect our ability to win in a negative way.

What is the bigger picture that Im missing that justifies playing Hibbert/Hawes lineups and almost never going small?

[Braggins]

I think the lineup criticisms this season are generally by people that have not actually studied our lineups and how they've changed over the season. I'll leave it at that.

Oh, really? Id love to hear an explanation for this. Im sure i just need to do more research and then ill understand how playing guys like Roy Hibbert and Hawes is a good thing or that there werent any other options

Sorry for breaking this up into multiple posts, but uts hard to edit on my phone.

[yosemiteben]

Hibbert and Hawes played 79 total minutes together in 7 games. It was an experiment that didn't work out and was quickly discarded. Let's not act like it's evidence that Cliff is unwilling to experiment or refuses to adapt to on court performance.

Since Cody has been out, we've gone small a lot - Marv and Frank have more minutes on the floor this season than Lamb and Belinelli. I don't blame Cliff for not going small when Cody was healthy.

I think the lack of depth this season has proved fatal, and that lack of depth is the result of a few factors. Our offseason FAs have not been able to make meaningful contributions, Marv's shooting efficiency dropped significantly at a time when we really needed it, we as a team are not defending at the level that we have in the past...there have been a lot of problems. We are not consistent in our focus or intensity. We don't win close games or out effort other teams. If you think Cliff isn't good at teaching defense or motivating his teams, then sure pull for him to get fired.

Reality is that we are a better team than our record suggests. Our net rating this season is 12th overall. Our record is reflective that we have had a ton of issues and I don't think any one is primarily responsible for putting us where we are today.

[Braggins]

I think most of those points are fair. My main area of disagreement is that I do blame Clifford for not going small when Cody was healthy and I think we should have much more than we have when he hasnt been healthy.

[yosemiteben]

Ok, I'm fine with that I guess, not unreasonable but not close to worth firing over.

I know our record dropped when Cody went out, but I do wonder how much Belinelli getting hurt contributed. We have no outside threat off the bench at all right now.

[Bassman]

Ok, I'm fine with that I guess, not unreasonable but not close to worth firing over.

I know our record dropped when Cody went out, but I do wonder how much Belinelli getting hurt contributed. We have no outside threat off the bench at all right now.

Regardless of health, this team is tapped out at a ceiling that will only lower every season. Why? Key players who are getting older and less effective (Marv, Batum) while taking up large chunks of salary, plus a bench that is putrid and not getting better.

[Mystical Apples]

I haven't blamed this season on Cody, so maybe don't straw man me next time.

What is the bigger picture that Im missing that justifies playing Hibbert/Hawes lineups and almost never going small?

Founded concerns about length, size, and depth at positions 1-3. Cause "going small" is usually a misnomer for spreading length/size across every position or at least compensating on the offensive end. CHA has neither.

Thus my continued insistence at the beginning of the season for another sturdy wing or wing handler.....which BTW was routinely dismissed by some of the same people hammering Cliff right now.

[316Hornets]

Ok, I'm fine with that I guess, not unreasonable but not close to worth firing over.

I know our record dropped when Cody went out, but I do wonder how much Belinelli getting hurt contributed. We have no outside threat off the bench at all right now.

Regardless of health, this team is tapped out at a ceiling that will only lower every season. Why? Key players who are getting older and less effective (Marv, Batum) while taking up large chunks of salary, plus a bench that is putrid and not getting better.

You're just looking at 1 team though. With NBA contracts like they are now and with the money teams have to spend, it's going to be very difficult for most teams to field a squad that isn't highly overpaid. Charlotte is lucky to have already committed long term contracts to guys like Kemba, MKG, Zeller, and Batum. We will continue to get better as we add draft picks while other teams will fight over who wants to pay most. Our guys value in the open market increases every season and would be easy to trade if the team really wanted to start a rebuild(Batum maybe not so much, but I guarantee there are teams that would welcome him on their team at his current price).

[Mystical Apples]

Ok, I'm fine with that I guess, not unreasonable but not close to worth firing over.

I know our record dropped when Cody went out, but I do wonder how much Belinelli getting hurt contributed. We have no outside threat off the bench at all right now.

Regardless of health, this team is tapped out at a ceiling that will only lower every season. Why? Key players who are getting older and less effective (Marv, Batum) while taking up large chunks of salary, plus a bench that is putrid and not getting better.

CHA lacks an elite, generational talent required to win a 'ship but that's true for most franchises. Otherwise CHA's foundation 1-8 surrounded by > replacement level players 9-11 is good enough for 55 wins, health permitting.

Really, this season's bad luck is the best outcome if adding high end talent to a solid nucleus is the primary objective.