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The Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#41 » by amcoolio » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:00 am

JDR720 wrote:
amcoolio wrote:I think we have a better coaching staff than Indiana, and certainly a better one than Utah. Lance does ball hog but its something that can be fixed. As for Hayward, Utah had the worst non-Dunlap coaching ever last season so its hard to tell. But it would be really scary spending 13MM+ on a guy who could easily end up as Dunleavy Jr. after he gets that contract

So Gordon goes from 16/5/5 on a team with a horrible coaching staff to Dunleavy Jr. with a great coaching staff i cant see that happening ever


Hey, Dunleavy Jr. once averaged 19/5/3.5. It comes down to, at 12-13MM a year, whether you think Lance or Hayward will improve further to be an all-star. I'm betting it on Lance. He has a more complete game and drastically improved every year and is elite in a few areas.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#42 » by BeesWax » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:01 am

stinger14 wrote:
JDR720 wrote:Gordon got more assists than Lance did even tho Lance basically played PG for Indy and had star player(s) around him so Gordon is the better passer and Gordon is a career 36% 3pt shooter(including 2 seasons of 40%+) and Lance is a career 32% shooter, Gordon is also way better at the FT line

On a side note, Gordon also had an above average PER on a crappy Utah team, Lance's was below average

Shooting and passing

Gordon > Lance



Lance has gotten better with his shot, trending good
Hayward has shot worse every year he plays, trending bad

And if you want to compare career shooting.

Hayward career. 437% shooter (trending down)
Henderson career. 444% shooter

Hendo has played on worse teams than Utah was last year. Hendo also plays much better defense.

We bash Hendo at 6 million per , but want to pay Hayward 15 million a year. That is 2.5 Times what Hendo makes. What little Hayward gives on offense, Hendo makes up a lot of it on defense

Hayward's percentages are going to hurt some because he shoot more from the outside, which is what we need. Hayward has trended down percentage wise as his attempts from three have gone up. Hayward does all this as the focus of the defense being the best player on the team. Lance is the third or fourth focus which may make a difference.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#43 » by BeesWax » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:02 am

stinger14 wrote:
jdm3 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
Something like that yeah

Yeah me too. I hate it because I think Zellers value goes up with Hayward to run the pick and roll with him but got to give some to get some.


Which is why you don't give him up. Keep Zeller and sign Lance. Lance is better than Hayward, and we keep our young talent

I don't know that Lance is better. He is a nut job that could sink the whole team. Only time will tell with that head case.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#44 » by BeesWax » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:04 am

amcoolio wrote:Lance is an elite defensive SG, and is also top 5 at his position in rebounding, passing, and efficency. Its a no brainer, really. Kemba/Lance/MKG/Vonleh is ridiculously strong defensively.

Lance can periodically play solid defense. Elite defensive SG is way more than a stretch at this point. All the numbers show him as just middle of the road on defense.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#45 » by W_HAMILTON » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:28 am

Don't want him.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#46 » by doc.end » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:37 am

W_HAMILTON wrote:Don't want him.

What if he would be black? :lol:
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#47 » by W_HAMILTON » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:52 am

doc.end wrote:What if he would be black? :lol:


I am open to signing Lance Stephenson...... :lol:
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#48 » by MasterIchiro » Sat Jul 5, 2014 1:34 am

I like Lance + Hayward and want them both on the team. I'd trade MKG for Hayward. I would look at Lance as an upgrade over MKG and Hayward as an upgrade over Henderson. Lance has a complete game on offense. MKG does not. Hayward has a complete game on offense Henderson does not. The defense is all a wash. Lance can shut down Lebron (shut him down to 7), so can MKG. Henderson is slow footed and nothing special on the perimeter. He can't dribble. He can't pass. He can't create for others. He can't hit wide open 3's.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#49 » by 2Mas » Sat Jul 5, 2014 1:40 am

This dude's value is a Jeff Green contract. 36m/4yr.

Jeff's value is like 7-8 & is getting paid 9. Gordon's value is like 9-10 & will be paid 12ish.

As an outside, I say don't do it, continue to build on what you have & develop the youngins. Don't rush.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#50 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:15 am

I’m tired of the “Gordon is trending down” narrative. It’s simply not true.

Here are Gordon’s 2 point, 3 point, and overall FG percentages
10-11 .489, .473, .485
11-12 .496, .346, .456
12-13 .444, .415, .435
13-14 .453, .304, .413

The first year Gordon only played 16 min a game. So he was earning those percentages in limited minutes against other bench players. After that the only sold trend down has been his overall FG%. Three point % has fluctuated up and down. 2 point FG% was actually up for him last year. The bottom line is that there isn’t a simple story of “trending down” to be told here. Something more complicated is going on.

For me last year was almost as much of an outlier as year one. He was “the man” on a really bad team. It was an especially bad situation since this clearly isn’t the role he should be playing. With his passing ability and range he’s the perfect guy to put as a second or third option. His passing enables him to complement a scoring PG (Kemba) and inside scorer (Al) really well. In fact he’s already proven that he can play with Al.

Next let’s think about Al’s situation. He came here from the same Utah team. What happened to him here? Suddenly in a system that suits him he’s a much “better” player. Is there any reason to think that the same thing wouldn’t happen to Hayward?

Which is all a long winded way of saying that he’s potentially a really good fit here. The only question in my mind is how much is he “worth?” So to reverse engineer this this I’m going to assume that Hayward is A) a long term starter & B) improves on the Hornets vs what he’s done so far with the Jazz. If both of those hold true he becomes either one of the better shooting guards in the league or in the top half of small forwards. He can easily be a top 20 player. The other player on the team likely to be paid big while Hayward deal would be in place is Kemba … and the cap situation looks like it can accommodate Al, Haywood, and Kemba … and maybe even Lance as well … on really big deals as long as the team is able to keep rookie contracts flowing. A max deal isn’t going to cripple the team if my two assumptions are true. Is it a risk? Sure. He needs to live up to the contract.

I also think that folks are stuck in the “old CBA” or even “old school” mentality where a max deal could only really go to the team’s one alpha dog player. It’s a different world now. With the new CBA limiting max salaries more than ever, a higher cap, and Gordon’s youth, giving him a max deal isn’t automatically a bad idea.

In an ideal world I would like to see Haywood PAIRED with MKG instead of traded for him. I think that the team needs some really strong defensive players at some of the positions for this thing to work. If MKG goes then the Hornets really are going to need Lance to partner with him.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#51 » by Liver_Pooty » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:29 am

This guys an idiot. I hope he does realize that once you take on the salary of said player, especially if it is a max or close to a max that his value goes down significantly.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell/status/485233240672727042[/tweet]

Hell, while were at it lets give them MKG and Walker
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#52 » by BeesWax » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:32 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:This guys an idiot. I hope he does realize that once you take on the salary of said player, especially if it is a max or close to a max that his value goes down significantly.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell/status/485233240672727042[/tweet]

Hell, while were at it lets give them MKG and Walker

If I were the Jazz I would ask for the moon too. What they get is going to be way different from what the ask for. HE is hedging his bet using his wording.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#53 » by JDR720 » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:32 am

Im telling you guys, a bonnell hate thread!
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#54 » by Liver_Pooty » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:34 am

jdm3 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:This guys an idiot. I hope he does realize that once you take on the salary of said player, especially if it is a max or close to a max that his value goes down significantly.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell/status/485233240672727042[/tweet]

Hell, while were at it lets give them MKG and Walker

If I were the Jazz I would ask for the moon too. What they get is going to be way different from what the ask for. HE is hedging his bet using his wording.


Well of course they're going to ask for the moon, but if we even give them anything close to that id be irate. Im not even sure Id include Zeller in a sign and trade, and including Vonleh would just be downright stupid
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#55 » by MasterIchiro » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:47 am

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:I’m tired of the “Gordon is trending down” narrative. It’s simply not true.

Here are Gordon’s 2 point, 3 point, and overall FG percentages
10-11 .489, .473, .485
11-12 .496, .346, .456
12-13 .444, .415, .435
13-14 .453, .304, .413

The first year Gordon only played 16 min a game. So he was earning those percentages in limited minutes against other bench players. After that the only sold trend down has been his overall FG%. Three point % has fluctuated up and down. 2 point FG% was actually up for him last year. The bottom line is that there isn’t a simple story of “trending down” to be told here. Something more complicated is going on.



This YouTube identifies a problem/habit he developed on his set 3's but it can be easily fixed by Price. I would think the Hornets' NBA scouts have watched enough film to identify the glitch and chalk it up as fixable, which makes Hayward a very under-the-radar steal, even near max contract levels. We could be getting a better version of the 2012-2013 Hayward with Al.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMZ9pEbl1Qs#t=54[/youtube]

And I agree Lance should be brought in and paired with him. A sign & trade that sends out Henderson + MKG helps us fit Lance + Hayward + Kemba long-term. And like you said, we just have to preserve draft picks and keep support players on rookie contracts.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#56 » by MasterIchiro » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:55 am

The Jazz have also taken on 7.2 million for Steve Novak. They've added Dante Exum, Rodney Hood and Steve Novak in advance of Gordon Hayward's looming free agency. It's something to ponder.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#57 » by BeesWax » Sat Jul 5, 2014 2:57 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:
jdm3 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:This guys an idiot. I hope he does realize that once you take on the salary of said player, especially if it is a max or close to a max that his value goes down significantly.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell/status/485233240672727042[/tweet]

Hell, while were at it lets give them MKG and Walker

If I were the Jazz I would ask for the moon too. What they get is going to be way different from what the ask for. HE is hedging his bet using his wording.


Well of course they're going to ask for the moon, but if we even give them anything close to that id be irate. Im not even sure Id include Zeller in a sign and trade, and including Vonleh would just be downright stupid

Oh I would be there with you. At least he isn't trying to move MKG to do it. That would be insane. I hope. Henderson goes out too so we can still have cap room to bring back McRoberts. Kemba/Hayward/MKG/McRoberts/big Al is a very good looking lineup in the east and we don't have the head case to try to deal with.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#58 » by fatlever » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:00 am

i'm trying to catch up on all the news of the past day. i love hayward for this team, especially next to MKG, but the cost at which we would have to pay to get him is outrageous - a max salary, plus assets. i just don't think chasing him is worth the price. about the best i would offer the jazz would be an unprotected 1st round pick. i'd only give up a package like zeller+three 1st round picks+max salary for a legit superstar, someone who can come is as a true #1 scoring wing.

go get vasquez, morrow and mcroberts and call it a summer.
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#59 » by JDR720 » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:01 am

fatlever wrote:i'm trying to catch up on all the news of the past day. i love hayward for this team, especially next to MKG, but the cost at which we would have to pay to get him is outrageous - a max salary, plus assets. i just don't think chasing him is worth the price. about the best i would offer the jazz would be an unprotected 1st round pick. i'd only give up a package like zeller+three 1st round picks+max salary for a legit superstar, someone who can come is as a true #1 scoring wing.

go get vasquez, morrow and mcroberts and call it a summer.

Vasquez is close to resigning with the Raps and Miami is going after Morrow
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Re: The Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#60 » by Liver_Pooty » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:14 am

jdm3 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
jdm3 wrote:If I were the Jazz I would ask for the moon too. What they get is going to be way different from what the ask for. HE is hedging his bet using his wording.


Well of course they're going to ask for the moon, but if we even give them anything close to that id be irate. Im not even sure Id include Zeller in a sign and trade, and including Vonleh would just be downright stupid

Oh I would be there with you. At least he isn't trying to move MKG to do it. That would be insane. I hope. Henderson goes out too so we can still have cap room to bring back McRoberts. Kemba/Hayward/MKG/McRoberts/big Al is a very good looking lineup in the east and we don't have the head case to try to deal with.


Now that I think about it I don't want Zeller going anywhere. Give them a first rounder and a solid expiring like Neal and be done with it.

What is the going rate for sign and trades on restricted free agents? Im kind of hoping that after our meeting with Hayward he will tell Utah that he doesn't even wish to play for them anymore and just to let him go, but hes too classy to do that, and they would probably tell him to F off
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