ImageImage

#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

Moderators: JDR720, Diop, BigSlam, yosemiteben, fatlever

User avatar
HornetJail
RealGM
Posts: 46,678
And1: 14,341
Joined: Feb 05, 2012
     

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#401 » by HornetJail » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:32 am

ball teacher wrote:
mrknowitall215 wrote:
No more Mr. Nice Guy: Steve Clifford will decide Bobcats rotation on merit

Charlotte Bobcats coach Steve Clifford believes he has a playoff team, and he plans to function like a playoff coach. That means no more choices weighted toward “player development” or massaging egos.

That was apparent in his rotation decisions in the second half of Monday’s home victory over the Denver Nuggets. Backup point guard Luke Ridnour never played. Backup center Bismack Biyombo played just over a minute. Rookie Cody Zeller played 1 1/2 minutes, but Clifford said that was more about the Nuggets going small late than anything Zeller did wrong.

It appeared a telling moment early in the fourth quarter when Biyombo committed an offensive foul with the Bobcats leading by 11. Clifford immediately subbed in starter Al Jefferson, and Biyombo never returned to the game.

Clifford made it clear post-game that sort of coaching would be the norm the rest of the season.

“Eighteen games left – this isn’t about playing for development or egos. This is about the team,” Clifford said of his rotation choices. “Guys off the bench can’t make mistakes. Regardless of how many minutes you get, you’ve got to play well when you do.”

For the first time since the 2009-10 season the Bobcats are playing for tangible stakes in March. You can say that’s about the mediocrity in the Eastern Conference, but the Bobcats are protecting a spot in the postseason and Clifford wants to see how players react.

Clifford talked all the way back to training camp about how the term “player development” gets misconstrued: It’s not just about refining individual skills; it’s about testing how players contribute to team success.

Clifford seemed to make a statement Monday by playing five players 31 minutes or more and no one else more than 19. He knows he can’t do that every night, particularly during sets of back-to-back games. But mistakes will be a bigger factor in playing time.

Shooting guard Gary Neal, who played in the NBA Finals with the San Antonio Spurs, understands.

“Maybe in Game 52 of the regular season (a mistake) is not that big,” Neal said. “In Game 7 of the playoffs, it’s so big.”

Jefferson, who signed as a free agent over the summer intending to play for a winner, pinpointed when the tone changed. It was the last game before the All-Star break, after the Brooklyn Nets drilled the Bobcats by 16.

In his post-game remarks to the team, Clifford laid out his intentions.

“He made that very clear,” Jefferson said. “He wasn’t coaching no more to keep guys in rhythm. He was going to play the guys who deserve it.

“Guys who don’t get it are going to sit down. One thing that’s been very clear about coach: He means what he says and he says what he means.”

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/11/ ... fford.html


Expect shorter rotations moving forward? Doesn't bode well for Biyombo (and maybe Zeller)


Doesn't bode well for MKG, Zeller, or Biz. Anyone who can shoot around Jefferson (like the Orlando Magic perimeter shooting team shot around Howard) will play, anyone who cant wont play.

Definitely doesn't sound good for Biz or MKG. Though the first people I immediately thought of were Gerald and Luke. Gerald may very see his minutes dwindle to about 24mpg and splitting minutes with Neal, MKG, and CDR, Luke's minutes may happen about as often as Pargo's. MKG will definitely continue starting, but we may see even less of him late in games, as he seems to stick with Neal and Tolliver for threes. Zeller might take all of Biz's minutes in the postseason, and I do not like that one bit.
investigate Adam Silver
User avatar
Liver_Pooty
RealGM
Posts: 41,150
And1: 17,209
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
   

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#402 » by Liver_Pooty » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:35 am

I love it. MKG has some of the most idiotic fouls ever at the beginning of games. Hell, if we didn't bench him I honestly believe he would lead the league in fouling out easily. He has to learn, and its a shame that he hasn't by now.

Biyombo will continue to keep his minutes, not really worried about that.
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 59,576
And1: 16,140
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#403 » by fatlever » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:26 am

here comes that 9-man rotation i've been talking about. which two players are the odd men out? biz? zeller? neal? hendo? CDR? ridnour? tolliver?
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 59,576
And1: 16,140
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#404 » by fatlever » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:34 am

also agree that the days of MKG getting 20+ minutes are over. he'll start and get 12 guaranteed from playing the first 6 mins of each half. anything after that, he'll have to earn.

one of CDR, neal or hendo will not play much at all - most likely CDR.

ridnour will get about 3 minutes a half as we ride kemba for 40+ a night. if there was any way we could get away with neal at pg, im sure we would do it. however, i dont think thats feasible.

biz will only play if we cant get away with using zeller at center. but even then, dont expect biz to get anywhere near double figure minutes.
User avatar
JDR720
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 44,368
And1: 46,042
Joined: Jul 09, 2013
     

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#405 » by JDR720 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:39 am

fatlever wrote:here comes that 9-man rotation i've been talking about. which two players are the odd men out? biz? zeller? neal? hendo? CDR? ridnour? tolliver?

CDR and Biz why? CDR has lots of players at his positions and Cliff only views Biz as a center and Al is gonna be playing a LOT
ball teacher
Starter
Posts: 2,409
And1: 259
Joined: Feb 06, 2010

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#406 » by ball teacher » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:43 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:I love it. MKG has some of the most idiotic fouls ever at the beginning of games. Hell, if we didn't bench him I honestly believe he would lead the league in fouling out easily. He has to learn, and its a shame that he hasn't by now.

Biyombo will continue to keep his minutes, not really worried about that.


I don't believe this coach really has much interest in MKG staying on the floor regardless. With quick fouls or not MKG gets benched so the one dimensional shooters who can space the floor can come in. MKG has played very good in his limited minutes this whole season having a lot more good games than bad ones, problem is hell never get heavy minutes with Cliff or a real role offensively cause Cliff needs pure shooters around the big man to fit the system. I wouldn't care about this at all if we didn't pick this guy 2nd OVERALL.
"Thou shalt not test basketball Mcjesus at the rim or ye shall receive the forearm of righteousness" Flip Murray
Image
User avatar
mrknowitall215
RealGM
Posts: 11,149
And1: 2,384
Joined: Dec 20, 2009

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#407 » by mrknowitall215 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:01 pm

I wouldn't say 'never', but Clifford has said that he's trying to build a winning culture first & foremost, while letting individual player development take a backseat in-game and all the more important during practice & the offseason. If MKG want to be a bigger part of the team in-game he'll need to develop a dependable offensive repertoire this offseason
Image
BeesWax
General Manager
Posts: 7,855
And1: 1,660
Joined: Jul 04, 2001
       

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#408 » by BeesWax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:06 pm

Clifford could not say this early in the year because he would look stupid playing Zeller for any reason. It is not a coincidence that Zeller string together a few half decent outings and Clifford says this. Zeller should have been benched early in the year if we were trying to win games. He is full of hot air with all this nonsense. If he wanted to win Adrien would have had all of Zeller's minutes at the start of the season and Z would have been in the D-league.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 22,532
And1: 15,734
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#409 » by yosemiteben » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:13 pm

jdm3, not following at all. So you think he said this because...why exactly?

So he wanted to play Zeller earlier in the season, Zeller starts playing well and now he wants to avoid playing him? Or he's just flat out lying about trying to position the team for playoff success, and he's actually going to keep playing Zeller and this is his excuse to not play other guys?

Don't understand your take.
BeesWax
General Manager
Posts: 7,855
And1: 1,660
Joined: Jul 04, 2001
       

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#410 » by BeesWax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:34 pm

yosemiteben wrote:jdm3, not following at all. So you think he said this because...why exactly?

So he wanted to play Zeller earlier in the season, Zeller starts playing well and now he wants to avoid playing him? Or he's just flat out lying about trying to position the team for playoff success, and he's actually going to keep playing Zeller and this is his excuse to not play other guys?

Don't understand your take.

I am saying he was waiting on Zeller to have some good games before he could say this. They have tried to claim in the background all year that they were playing for the playoffs but having Zeller in the game flew in the face of that. He could never have justified Zeller's playing time and Biz's lack of playing time after saying this.

I think they are trying to make the playoffs and sort of always were but he knew he had to play Zeller whether or not Zeller could actually play when out there. That meant he could not make such a statement earlier or he would have had to bench Z to not be a flat out liar.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
User avatar
mrknowitall215
RealGM
Posts: 11,149
And1: 2,384
Joined: Dec 20, 2009

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#411 » by mrknowitall215 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:09 pm

What 'jdm3' is stating has legs, but I'm not going to read to far into it. I just happen to think Clifford will begin to bend his strict rotations much more than he has earlier in the season. I was shocked to see Clifford pull Biyombo & Zeller as quick as he did when the game narrowed, something he didn't do often enough earlier in the season. However, I believe that Clifford devalues what Biyombo contributes to some degree
Image
User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 22,532
And1: 15,734
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#412 » by yosemiteben » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:14 pm

I took his comments as an admission that we really didn't even know if we were going to make the playoffs earlier in the season, especially with the way the season started, so development was definitely a consideration in our rotations. Now that we almost certainly are, it's time to change our mindset.

I don't know why you're making it all about Zeller. Biyombo and MKG are AT LEAST as impacted, if not more so.
User avatar
mrknowitall215
RealGM
Posts: 11,149
And1: 2,384
Joined: Dec 20, 2009

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#413 » by mrknowitall215 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:19 pm

yosemiteben wrote:I don't know why you're making it all about Zeller. Biyombo and MKG are AT LEAST as impacted, if not more so.


I want to say that the reason he's making his direct angst towards Zeller is because Zeller's woes was exponentially more visible than both MKG & Biyombo, yet Zeller never fell out of the rotation while both of MKG, and moreso Biyombo saw their roles decrease. I agree with 'jdm3' though that Adrien should've had a shot at Zeller's playing time earlier in the season if winning was the objective
Image
User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 22,532
And1: 15,734
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#414 » by yosemiteben » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:59 pm

MKG saw his role reduced? When? His MPG look pretty steady up until the all star break, other than for his injury.

Like I said before, I think it's pretty clear that at the beginning of this season Clifford was balancing development with winning. He was brought in to change the culture and to put in place a fundamentally sound team. Fast forward to now, and we are solely focused on one thing - preparing for the playoffs. Hence the statement.
BeesWax
General Manager
Posts: 7,855
And1: 1,660
Joined: Jul 04, 2001
       

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#415 » by BeesWax » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:41 pm

The problem with your thought is that if he was developing the young guys more Biz should have played more earlier and if he wasn't because we wanted to win then Zeller should have played less. There is no way to justify his rotation other than he just wanted to play Zeller and does not want to play a superior player in Biz.

He has contradicted himself to much to say he was doing one or the other. The only thing I think is clear is he was going to play Zeller no matter what was happening. Either Cho told him he had to play Zeller no matter how bad he was to justify the pick or he just hates Biz for no reason.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
User avatar
MasterIchiro
RealGM
Posts: 21,388
And1: 6,845
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
Location: The Dirty Water
       

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#416 » by MasterIchiro » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:59 am

I agree with yosemite ben. Development was a big factor along with winning early but now that we are a playoff team development has to take a back seat.

Furthermore, as for Zeller...McBob has never been a starter. Getting him up to speed with conditioning was important, thus why Zeller ganked a disproportionate number of minutes early when he didn't deserve it. McBob was sucking wind. Now look at him.

As far as Biz and MKG goes, they contribute no offense and Clifford has confidence in his system when it comes to defense.

Zeller will not play if he sucks off the bench at this point.

And since I think Zeller is for real, I think Biz, MKG and Hendo are going to have to scrape for minutes if they get into old habits. Neal just got a DNP. It's all serious business right now and no coach is going to favor anybody regardless of the moves he made early in the year to create that perception.
It has been written...
User avatar
Liver_Pooty
RealGM
Posts: 41,150
And1: 17,209
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
   

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#417 » by Liver_Pooty » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:16 am

Clifford has done an amazing job.
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
User avatar
HornetJail
RealGM
Posts: 46,678
And1: 14,341
Joined: Feb 05, 2012
     

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#418 » by HornetJail » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:20 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:Clifford has done an amazing job.

He will be the coach for the length of our Spurs-esque dynasty.
investigate Adam Silver
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 59,576
And1: 16,140
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#419 » by fatlever » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:12 am

User avatar
JDR720
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 44,368
And1: 46,042
Joined: Jul 09, 2013
     

Re: Steve Clifford Thread 

Post#420 » by JDR720 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:12 am

I would give Steve an extension after the season he has done excellent

Return to Charlotte Hornets