Woj: Batum to Charlotte, Vonleh + Gerald to Portland

[InProblematique]

You guys are taking this whole position thing way too seriously. Batum is going to be Batum. He'll be listed as the starting SG, but it's not like he's going to have to exclusively play like one. Positions in this league are extremely ambiguous, ESPECIALLY the wing positions.

[EwingSweatsALot]

I think we could see some really interesting aggressive defensive lineups featuring Batum, MKG, Marvin and Zeller with all being able to switch as needed. Its not quite the same as Klay, Iggy, Barnes and Green, but similar idea.

interesting train of thought, fats. we probably, indeed, are reacting to the newest trends of the NBA with these trades.

I still also believe WCS is up for discussion with the 9th pick. If that is the case and we take him we could have lineups where we can switch 1-5.

[predators]

If we continue to suck at developing players we won't ever be better than 7th seed.

[Flip Murray]

the other young guys on the team should get better, but none of them has Vonleh potential. he is a near perfect mold for a modern PF. Batum doesn't get us anywhere, just another "ok" player on a team full of "ok" players.

This. It replies to the snark better than I could.

We'll see how our team looks this time next year, but I'm pretty damn sure we're taking shortcuts that have very little potential for serious improvement. If I'm wrong bash me for it to eternity, I'll be **** thrilled. Just miserable right now, we're going all-in on a team that wasn't even close to justifying that sort of commitment. I don't give a crap about the All-Star Game, as if being the fringe 7th-10th place team committed to paying Al/Batum big bucks into their 30s is going to make us not a laughingstock when that rolls around. What a joke.

I think you should wait until the dust settles to freak out over this one. We really have no idea what this roster is going to look like in a week. A lot depends on what we do tonight. Now if we just draft Kaminsky i'll be right there on the ledge with you.

[mrknowitall215]

According to 82games, Batum has most seldom played the shooting guard position throughout his career out of the 3 positions that his versatility has allowed him to play

SG is Batum's least effective position, as through 7 NBA seasons he's incurred a average of a -14.3 net rating on the floor playing the SG position

What's the sample size on that?

Also it might have something to do with Wes Matthews playing SG, whereas their backup SF has been Claver and Wright.

2014-15



2013-14



2012-13



2011-12



2010-11



2009-10



2008-09

[Hornet Mania]

the other young guys on the team should get better, but none of them has Vonleh potential. he is a near perfect mold for a modern PF. Batum doesn't get us anywhere, just another "ok" player on a team full of "ok" players.

This. It replies to the snark better than I could.

We'll see how our team looks this time next year, but I'm pretty damn sure we're taking shortcuts that have very little potential for serious improvement. If I'm wrong bash me for it to eternity, I'll be **** thrilled. Just miserable right now, we're going all-in on a team that wasn't even close to justifying that sort of commitment. I don't give a crap about the All-Star Game, as if being the fringe 7th-10th place team committed to paying Al/Batum big bucks into their 30s is going to make us not a laughingstock when that rolls around. What a joke.

I think you should wait until the dust settles to freak out over this one. We really have no idea what this roster is going to look like in a week. A lot depends on what we do tonight. Now if we just draft Kaminsky i'll be right there on the ledge with you.

I'm seriously trying not to, I just about decided to check out on this team until Cliff/Cho get canned but I care about the laundry too much. I'd watch a team named the Charlotte Hornets play like the Sixers from the last two years for eternity before I'd give up on them. Really tough to be optimistic though, mainly because the first move portends more win-now trades. I don't see why they do the Batum trade unless you're all-in with vets, and that seems like something Cliff would be 100% on board with anyway. If we make more moves it will likely be to bring in more vets at the cost of Zeller/9.

[yosemiteben]

So I see in 4 of those years we're dealing with a 0% sample size and one year according to that he didn't play SG at all. Unclear to me why the numbers don't add up to 100%, but whatever.

Add that to the fact that I don't think there's a non-arbitrary way to attribute his time to SG vs. SF, and that leads me to not find those stats to be particularly compelling.

[Hornet Mania]

I'm less concerned about Batum being bad at SG (probably won't be ideal, but upgrade over Hendo) than I am Cliff benching MKG late in the 4th to slide Batum to SF and play another guy at SG for spacing. If that becomes a thing it will be really grating.

[Flip Murray]

This. It replies to the snark better than I could.

We'll see how our team looks this time next year, but I'm pretty damn sure we're taking shortcuts that have very little potential for serious improvement. If I'm wrong bash me for it to eternity, I'll be **** thrilled. Just miserable right now, we're going all-in on a team that wasn't even close to justifying that sort of commitment. I don't give a crap about the All-Star Game, as if being the fringe 7th-10th place team committed to paying Al/Batum big bucks into their 30s is going to make us not a laughingstock when that rolls around. What a joke.

I think you should wait until the dust settles to freak out over this one. We really have no idea what this roster is going to look like in a week. A lot depends on what we do tonight. Now if we just draft Kaminsky i'll be right there on the ledge with you.

I'm seriously trying not to, I just about decided to check out on this team until Cliff/Cho get canned but I care about the laundry too much. I'd watch a team named the Charlotte Hornets play like the Sixers from the last two years for eternity before I'd give up on them. Really tough to be optimistic though, mainly because the first move portends more win-now trades. I don't see why they do the Batum trade unless you're all-in with vets, and that seems like something Cliff would be 100% on board with anyway. If we make more moves it will likely be to bring in more vets at the cost of Zeller/9.

True, if you're not about ready to see a shrink by this point then you probably haven't been a Charlotte fan very long. We've all taken such a beating. Pretty hard to trust a front office with this one's history.

[LofJ]

I'm less concerned about Batum being bad at SG (probably won't be ideal, but upgrade over Hendo) than I am Cliff benching MKG late in the 4th to slide Batum to SF and play another guy at SG for spacing. If that becomes a thing it will be really grating.

MKG is better than any other wing on our roster so he should get plenty of minutes, but let's not pretend that in certain situations it won't be advantageous to have more shooters on the floor. Batum's flexibility to play on the wing next to MKG, Hairston, Lamb, etc. will come in handy in those situations.

[Hornet Mania]

I'm less concerned about Batum being bad at SG (probably won't be ideal, but upgrade over Hendo) than I am Cliff benching MKG late in the 4th to slide Batum to SF and play another guy at SG for spacing. If that becomes a thing it will be really grating.

MKG is better than any other wing on our roster so he should get plenty of minutes, but let's not pretend that in certain situations it won't be advantageous to have more shooters on the floor. Batum's flexibility to play on the wing next to MKG, Hairston, Lamb, etc. will come in handy in those situations.

Only if our defense doesn't fall off a cliff the way it did every time MKG sat for extended stretches the last couple seasons. Perhaps Batum will alleviate that somewhat. I don't mind benching MKG for short stretches of the 4th ("Down 8 with 1:30 to play, we need a 3, send in the unit with shooters!") but I'm not cool with benching him for over half the deciding period if that becomes the norm again. Maybe it won't, I just see it as a serious possibility now and it is the aspect of the Batum/MKG fit that causes me the most concern.

[Cheeze]

Terrific thread...lots of good analysis, emotion, wide range of input.

Batum added $3M to the Hornet's cap. Trading Barnes's $1M guaranteed for Ridnour's non-guaranteed $2.4M makes up for a lot of that. Barnes was gone either way. If Charlotte flips Luke's suddenly valuable contract for Lamb or another asset, then it'll be a strategic decision from a payroll standpoint. But bottom line, getting rid of Barnes for Ridnour saves the entire Ridnour contract, which practically negates Batum's added cap number. That's good asset management.

Cho traded Hendo because he was a bad functional fit. Vonleh was a value get for the last draft, but he didn't add to the win total and wasn't really expected to add much impact this year. Extreme youth does have its drawbacks. The Hornets were too young and were expecting to get younger. Cho changed that with this trade and was able to utilize Hendo's contract to improve the fit.

Batum is JUST the Euro-type Cho has been trying to acquire. Makes no difference if Batum is the ideal shooting guard or not, what he gives is perimeter cover for MKG. It's a move made to expand the floor, something Hendo did not, and could not, do.

The trade has risk. There's no denying that. Portland obviously feels that Vonleh can be developed. But if he becomes an all-star, it'll be in 2020, not 2015. Charlotte likely feels that it can convince Batum to re-sign, or even extend before he hits UFA. Batum be expensive, but at least the Hornets will have a shot at re-signing one of their own as opposed to trading another asset or trying to tap into a cap-saturated free agent market next summer. Better to get it now while the gettin's good. It's why Kemba was extended so early in his rookie deal.

But the bigger risk for Cho was in the win column, so he weighed the cost (future potential) against the potential gain (wins in 2015-16) and found it to be equitable.

So...in my opinion, Cho did a good job of managing resources, reducing risk and adding to the potential of adding wins next season. And he removed the urgent, almost desperate need for shooting that colors every mock draft on the internet. Cho can now take the best player (Oubre) or trade the pick and not put the franchise at risk. The Hornets aren't seriously counting on the #9 pick in this draft to turn the franchise around. And neither should we.

Good trade.

[Flip Murray]

Terrific thread...lots of good analysis, emotion, wide range of input.

Batum added $3M to the Hornet's cap. Trading Barnes's $1M guaranteed for Ridnour's non-guaranteed $2.4M makes up for a lot of that. Barnes was gone either way. If Charlotte flips Luke's suddenly valuable contract for Lamb or another asset, then it'll be a strategic decision from a payroll standpoint. But bottom line, getting rid of Barnes for Ridnour saves the entire Ridnour contract, which practically negates Batum's added cap number. That's good asset management.

Cho traded Hendo because he was a bad functional fit. Vonleh was a value get for the last draft, but he didn't add to the win total and wasn't really expected to add much impact this year. Extreme youth does have its drawbacks. The Hornets were too young and were expecting to get younger. Cho changed that with this trade and was able to utilize Hendo's contract to improve the fit.

Batum is JUST the Euro-type Cho has been trying to acquire. Makes no difference if Batum is the ideal shooting guard or not, what he gives is perimeter cover for MKG. It's a move made to expand the floor, something Hendo did not, and could not, do.

The trade has risk. There's no denying that. Portland obviously feels that Vonleh can be developed. But if he becomes an all-star, it'll be in 2020, not 2015. Charlotte likely feels that it can convince Batum to re-sign, or even extend before he hits UFA. Batum be expensive, but at least the Hornets will have a shot at re-signing one of their own as opposed to trading another asset or trying to tap into a cap-saturated free agent market next summer. Better to get it now while the gettin's good. It's why Kemba was extended so early in his rookie deal.

But the bigger risk for Cho was in the win column, so he weighed the cost (future potential) against the potential gain (wins in 2015-16) and found it to be equitable.

So...in my opinion, Cho did a good job of managing resources, reducing risk and adding to the potential of adding wins next season. And he removed the urgent, almost desperate need for shooting that colors every mock draft on the internet. Cho can now take the best player (Oubre) or trade the pick and not put the franchise at risk. The Hornets aren't seriously counting on the #9 pick in this draft to turn the franchise around. And neither should we.

Good trade.

Thanks Cheeze, you really articulated a lot of what I'm thinking better than I could've

[MPM]

the other young guys on the team should get better, but none of them has Vonleh potential. he is a near perfect mold for a modern PF. Batum doesn't get us anywhere, just another "ok" player on a team full of "ok" players.

This. It replies to the snark better than I could.

We'll see how our team looks this time next year, but I'm pretty damn sure we're taking shortcuts that have very little potential for serious improvement. If I'm wrong bash me for it to eternity, I'll be **** thrilled. I'm just miserable right now. We're going all-in on a team that wasn't even close to justifying that sort of commitment. I don't give a crap about the All-Star Game, as if being the fringe 7th-10th place team committed to paying Al/Batum big bucks into their 30s is going to make us not a laughingstock when that rolls around. What a joke.

Equally down on losing Vonleh. If it was Zeller rather than Vonleh I would have been perfectly fine, as I strongly feel Vonleh is going to be a very, very good player in this league.

Not sure how others can read bust with Vonleh (far too many tools), and I'm confident stating that we will be kicking ourselves in a few years when Vonleh is shining and Batum is either playing for another team or broken down and earning 13-15 mil a year for the Hornets.

EDIT - Don't read this as being down on Batum - kind of excited to have him here and see how the chemistry works - just down on losing Vonleh, which I think a number of us are. Cheez' post is well articulated and fairly paints the upside.

[Cheeze]

I'm less concerned about Batum being bad at SG (probably won't be ideal, but upgrade over Hendo) than I am Cliff benching MKG late in the 4th to slide Batum to SF and play another guy at SG for spacing. If that becomes a thing it will be really grating.

MKG is better than any other wing on our roster so he should get plenty of minutes, but let's not pretend that in certain situations it won't be advantageous to have more shooters on the floor. Batum's flexibility to play on the wing next to MKG, Hairston, Lamb, etc. will come in handy in those situations.

Only if our defense doesn't fall off a cliff the way it did every time MKG sat for extended stretches the last couple seasons. Perhaps Batum will alleviate that somewhat. I don't mind benching MKG for short stretches of the 4th ("Down 8 with 1:30 to play, we need a 3, send in the unit with shooters!") but I'm not cool with benching him for over half the deciding period if that becomes the norm again. Maybe it won't, I just see it as a serious possibility now and it is the aspect of the Batum/MKG fit that causes me the most concern.

It became the norm because MKG couldn't shoot. He's a liability. I saw improvement on his shot last season and that gives me hope. But with such an obvious weakness, it puts opposing defenses in too great an advantage. It's why Charlotte couldn't live with Lance on the floor last season. Unless MKG begins making opponents pay for game-planning to his weakness, he'll continue to sit when the club needs offense. You're right about the defense taking a nose dive when MKG sits. Clifford will have to deal with that. But there are choices and there are choices.

[mrknowitall215]

Ironic that the same people that adamantly made the argument that Biyombo can't play PF are the same ones acting like there's no difference between SG and SF. It's moving. My stance is that Batum is more PF than SG, not that he can't play SG sporadically, but I doubt that he'll comfortably succeed logging heavy minutes at SG

[yosemiteben]

Ironic that the same people that adamantly made the argument that Biyombo can't play PF are the same ones acting like there's no difference between SG and SF.

I feel like you're being disingenuous here. Power forwards in the modern NBA typically don't camp in the lane like centers tend to do, and Biz is a poor one on one defender in space or on the perimeter.

Can you articulate a difference between a SG and a SF?

[BigSlam]

Ironic that the same people that adamantly made the argument that Biyombo can't play PF are the same ones acting like there's no difference between SG and SF.

I don't agree with that comparison

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[No-Man]

If you want spacing and all that in late game situations, you play Walker-Williams-Batum-MKG-Jefferson probably, or even Biz.

[mrknowitall215]

Ironic that the same people that adamantly made the argument that Biyombo can't play PF are the same ones acting like there's no difference between SG and SF.

I feel like you're being disingenuous here. Power forwards in the modern NBA typically don't camp in the lane like centers tend to do, and Biz is a poor one on one defender in space or on the perimeter.

Can you articulate a difference between a SG and a SF?

There's not much difference between SG and SF just like there's not much difference between PF and C regardless of how you want to twist it. My debate is rather simple that Batum has played more PF in his career than SG and has fared better as a stretch 4 than a shooting guard. My bold prediction is that Batum will struggle at SG, and we'll be making adjustments with the position by New Year's