Woj: Batum to Charlotte, Vonleh + Gerald to Portland

BlackOutBuzz · Post #461 » by **BlackOutBuzz** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:34 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Random thought - Noah Vonleh was born in August of 1995.

Damn I'm getting old.

Karl Towns was born a couple weeks after teammate Kevin Garnett was drafted.

mrknowitall215 · Post #462 » by **mrknowitall215** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:37 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:I don't think we traded a Jermaine O'Neal or Zach Randolph or anything in that regard.

I'm sure that's what Portland fans originally thought when they let Jermaine O'Neal and Zach Randolph go after a few years of not getting much playing time

Liver_Pooty · Post #463 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:40 pm

mrknowitall215 wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:I don't think we traded a Jermaine O'Neal or Zach Randolph or anything in that regard.

I'm sure that's what Portland fans originally thought when they let Jermaine O'Neal and Zach Randolph go after a few years of not getting much playing time

Who knows? All hypothetical at this point. Most on here think he will turn out to be a beast. I guess I'm in the minority. I think he will be a solid player, but nothing compared to what others have said.

Guess we'll see.

HornetJail · Post #464 » by **HornetJail** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:43 pm

I think Vonleh had the potential to be the best player on the roster. Whether he becomes that is up in the air, but you don't trade that away for a guy who's going to be a free agent next year and isn't an all-star talent.

Post #465 » by **yosemiteben** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:46 pm

MotorKeepsGoing wrote:I think Vonleh had the potential to be the best player on the roster. Whether he becomes that is up in the air, but you don't trade that away for a guy who's going to be a free agent next year and isn't an all-star talent.

That can all be true and it can nonetheless turn out to be a fantastic trade. I know you've been pretty spiteful since the trade, so curious to hear your thoughts about specifically what level of production it would take to justify the trade. Obviously it's an imperfect science, but still curious.

HornetJail · Post #466 » by **HornetJail** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:12 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MotorKeepsGoing wrote:I think Vonleh had the potential to be the best player on the roster. Whether he becomes that is up in the air, but you don't trade that away for a guy who's going to be a free agent next year and isn't an all-star talent.

That can all be true and it can nonetheless turn out to be a fantastic trade. I know you've been pretty spiteful since the trade, so curious to hear your thoughts about specifically what level of production it would take to justify the trade. Obviously it's an imperfect science, but still curious.

This offseason in general has pissed me off. We basically said "**** defense" and replaced Bismack and Vonleh with Spencer Hawes and Frank Kaminsky, which could help our offense now, but our future as maybe the best defensive team in the league a couple years from now, simply isn't going to happen. Our team's ceiling is so much lower than it was a month ago. I think it's great that we upgraded from Lance+Hendo to Batum+Lamb, and Lin is a solid pickup, but this time next year, all three of those pickups may very well be gone in free agency, and we could be watching Vonleh get hyped up as Damian Lillard's next future All-Star running mate in Portland while we wait and hope for the 5% chance that Steph Curry comes in and turns the franchise around.

This team isn't dead in the water- we're still a good team with a nice future as a low-to-mid tier playoff team in the East, but that's it. Unless we do great things with our cap space in 2016, I've given up hope of this team being a consistent top 4 seed. I thought Biz/Vonleh/MKG/Winslow/Kemba with Zeller and shooters off the bench could really make noise a couple years from now, enough to get Curry to take a second glance at us. I was perfectly fine taking a step back for a year and letting the young talent develop. Instead, we're forcing our way into a 6-8 seed this year and sacrificing two players we've invested A LOT in order to do that. If Batum walks and we can't find anything in 2016 or he underwhelms and plays like Lance, this team is toast.

Post #467 » by **yosemiteben** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:20 pm

Not to be a jerk, but you still didn't answer the question. Assuming we resign Batum (which I acknowledge is a risk), what sort of performance would it take from Vonleh in the future to vindicate that criticism by you? How much would resigning Batum change your view on the trade?

I'm not concerned about our defense for reasons I've mentioned many times on here, and my question is specifically intended to address ceiling / potential vs. actual future production.

LofJ · Post #468 » by **LofJ** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:36 pm

If we have a good season I actually don't think there's a huge chance that Batum will walk to go to another team. Our main competition for him will be the Lakers, Jazz, Hawks, and Pelicans. The Pelicans have questionable depth, so I don't think it would be a good idea for them to spend almost all (which is what it would take to sign him) of their available cap to sign him. The Lakers are going to suck again next season, so unless they're threatening to sign a big fish next year I doubt Batum will be interested in them. That leaves Utah and Atlanta, both of which I imagine would be appealing to him, but hopefully his experience here and our ability to pay him more will sway him.

HornetJail · Post #469 » by **HornetJail** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:28 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Not to be a jerk, but you still didn't answer the question. Assuming we resign Batum (which I acknowledge is a risk), what sort of performance would it take from Vonleh in the future to vindicate that criticism by you? How much would resigning Batum change your view on the trade?

I'm not concerned about our defense for reasons I've mentioned many times on here, and my question is specifically intended to address ceiling / potential vs. actual future production.

Re-signing Batum would be huge and certainly helps the trade significantly if he does. If Batum stays with us for 3+ years and steadily puts up 14/5/5 with solid defense and good efficiency, then it was a risk worth taking. Vonleh would have to become a defensive menace and a double-double machine to be considered a bad trade then. It would ease a ton of concern if Batum would just sign a 2-3 year extension with us now, even if it's an overpay.

That said, it becomes a nightmare situation if 2014-15 Batum becomes the new norm for him and he basically becomes a 6'8 Hendo on a monster contract.

Post #470 » by **yosemiteben** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:32 pm

I gotcha, I'd fully agree with that. Batum walking would be a terminable offense IMO, they have to be comfortable that he won't walk and they have to be right.

Post #471 » by **BigSlam** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:39 am

To gauge the value of the trade I'm not sure that Batum Vs Vonleh should be the comparison.

I'm more interested in Frank's career Vs Vonleh's career because the way I see it is that our FO chose Frank over Vonleh.

If Frank has a better career then I think we win.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Post #472 » by **yosemiteben** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:03 am

BigSlam wrote:To gauge the value of the trade I'm not sure that Batum Vs Vonleh should be the comparison.

I'm more interested in Frank's career Vs Vonleh's career because the way I see it is that our FO chose Frank over Vonleh.

If Frank has a better career then I think we win.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I strongly disagree there. You can't just take Batum out of the equation, he is literally only on our roster because we sent Vonleh and we would have had the 9 either way. I can see saying Vonleh + Winslow or someone else available at 9 vs. Frank + Batum, but Batum has to be involved in the analysis IMO.

Liver_Pooty · Post #473 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:12 am

Vonleh looks really bad so far tonight.

Liver_Pooty · Post #474 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:25 am

Vonleh with 6 pts 4 rebounds and 3 fouls in first half. Maybe he'll turn it up in the second half.

Post #475 » by **fatlever** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:43 am

vonleh is -23 tonight, worst on the team. His backup, Malcom Thomas is + 13
Last night Vonleh was -6, his backup was +21

make of that what you will

Liver_Pooty · Post #476 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:49 am

fatlever wrote:vonleh is -23 tonight, worst on the team. His backup, Malcom Thomas is + 13
Last night Vonleh was -6, his backup was +21

make of that what you will

His defense has been awful. Very active, or at least looks active on the offensive end. Lazy on the defensive end.

Mystical Apples · Post #477 » by **Mystical Apples** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:01 am

yosemiteben wrote:
BigSlam wrote:To gauge the value of the trade I'm not sure that Batum Vs Vonleh should be the comparison.

I'm more interested in Frank's career Vs Vonleh's career because the way I see it is that our FO chose Frank over Vonleh.

If Frank has a better career then I think we win.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I strongly disagree there. You can't just take Batum out of the equation, he is literally only on our roster because we sent Vonleh and we would have had the 9 either way. I can see saying Vonleh + Winslow or someone else available at 9 vs. Frank + Batum, but Batum has to be involved in the analysis IMO.

Actually you could probably take both players out of it. Charlotte traded the 9th pick in a not so deep draft for an above average 26 year old starter on a 1 year contract.

Mystical Apples · Post #478 » by **Mystical Apples** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:04 am

And the 9th pick this year was more valuable. It was a deeper draft with quality at 9-12 that normally goes around 4-6. Cho thought Kaminsky was BPA something had to give and Batum was good value

Post #479 » by **fatlever** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:05 am

and then Vonleh hits back to back 3s, his 3rd of the night. I am going to pull my hair out watching this dude for the next 5 years. ARGH, he is up to 18 now.

Liver_Pooty · Post #480 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:05 am

Vonleh with a couple 3s. May end up having good stat line after a bad 3 quarters