Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[DY_nasty]

Memphis was a fun story last year, but not sure I view their talent really any better than ours and if so it is barely.

cmon man

ja and jjj is a foundation most teams dream of

I like Ja a lot, but he is a 6-3 guard, who we saw teams expose in the bubble because he can't really shoot (9/40 on threes in bubble or 22.5%). Hornets will have a 6-7 pg who teams might exploit because his shooting isn't amazing yet.

JJJ is a good young player, but he scores majority of points on threes (accounts for 44% of his total points). He shots 47 % from the field as a big man (not great) and averages 4.6 and 4.7 rebounds a game in his first two seasons as a pf/c.


For comparison sake PJ Washington threes account for 36% of his total points. He shot 45.5% from field as pf (again not great). He averages 5.4 rebounds (not massively more, but more). So to me PJ and JJJ are about the same player at this point.

Then on top of it I would rather have Hayward then JV or Dillon Brooks, so again I don't this is massively better than us right now.

they wouldn't even be in the bubble without that guy lol

he was driving memphis full time... brought their energy, initiated, got them big buckets - even when they got slammed by injuries. you get to shoot bad here and there when you're the engine of your franchise and creating wins.

PJ ain't putting the team on his back

[JMAC3]

cmon man

ja and jjj is a foundation most teams dream of

I like Ja a lot, but he is a 6-3 guard, who we saw teams expose in the bubble because he can't really shoot (9/40 on threes in bubble or 22.5%). Hornets will have a 6-7 pg who teams might exploit because his shooting isn't amazing yet.

JJJ is a good young player, but he scores majority of points on threes (accounts for 44% of his total points). He shots 47 % from the field as a big man (not great) and averages 4.6 and 4.7 rebounds a game in his first two seasons as a pf/c.


For comparison sake PJ Washington threes account for 36% of his total points. He shot 45.5% from field as pf (again not great). He averages 5.4 rebounds (not massively more, but more). So to me PJ and JJJ are about the same player at this point.

Then on top of it I would rather have Hayward then JV or Dillon Brooks, so again I don't this is massively better than us right now.

they wouldn't even be in the bubble without that guy lol

he was driving memphis full time... brought their energy, initiated, got them big buckets - even when they got slammed by injuries. you get to shoot bad here and there when you're the engine of your franchise and creating wins.

PJ ain't putting the team on his back

I am not saying he is cheeks, but it is funny how this franchise tends to tear down its players that have potential and then ignore the bad things for other teams players. On the opposite I am glad I am not a fan of Celtics or Lakers, Celtics wouldn't include Theis and Grant Williams if it meant them getting Capela haha.

Just think we have some good players like Rozier and Bridges, but we look only their warts. Then when it comes to other teams players we only look at the good things, I guess not watching other teams play every night has something to do with it.

Also, I am not comparing PJ to Ja, I was comparing him to JJJ who apparently is sooo much better as a second banana even tho PJ had a pretty identical rookie season.

[DY_nasty]

I like Ja a lot, but he is a 6-3 guard, who we saw teams expose in the bubble because he can't really shoot (9/40 on threes in bubble or 22.5%). Hornets will have a 6-7 pg who teams might exploit because his shooting isn't amazing yet.

JJJ is a good young player, but he scores majority of points on threes (accounts for 44% of his total points). He shots 47 % from the field as a big man (not great) and averages 4.6 and 4.7 rebounds a game in his first two seasons as a pf/c.


For comparison sake PJ Washington threes account for 36% of his total points. He shot 45.5% from field as pf (again not great). He averages 5.4 rebounds (not massively more, but more). So to me PJ and JJJ are about the same player at this point.

Then on top of it I would rather have Hayward then JV or Dillon Brooks, so again I don't this is massively better than us right now.

they wouldn't even be in the bubble without that guy lol

he was driving memphis full time... brought their energy, initiated, got them big buckets - even when they got slammed by injuries. you get to shoot bad here and there when you're the engine of your franchise and creating wins.

PJ ain't putting the team on his back

I am not saying he is cheeks, but it is funny how this franchise tends to tear down its players that have potential and then ignore the bad things for other teams players. On the opposite I am glad I am not a fan of Celtics or Lakers, Celtics wouldn't include Theis and Grant Williams if it meant them getting Capela haha.

Just think we have some good players like Rozier and Bridges, but we look only their warts. Then when it comes to other teams players we only look at the good things, I guess not watching other teams play every night has something to do with it.

Also, I am not comparing PJ to Ja, I was comparing him to JJJ who apparently is sooo much better as a second banana even tho PJ had a pretty identical rookie season.

I'm not tearing anyone down.

Comparing anyone on this roster to Ja is just plain disingenuous. We know PJ doesn't have frontcourt anchor potential like JJJ either.

And that's okay.

[BigSlam]

I've seen some toss around the idea of Hayward averaging 20/5/5 next season with us. Considering he's never averaged 20/5/5 in a season before and only ever averaged 5 assists once in a season, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

I could see him putting up more like 18/4/3 with good percentages of 45/38/85 and about 5 FTA's per game.

What does everyone else think?

[DY_nasty]

I've seen some toss around the idea of Hayward averaging 20/5/5 next season with us. Considering he's never averaged 20/5/5 in a season before and only ever averaged 5 assists once in a season, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

I could see him putting up more like 18/4/3 with good percentages of 45/38/85 and about 5 FTA's per game.

What does everyone else think?

I don't think you're crazy.

I also worry about the guy in a condensed season as well.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Just to see where we are as of this morning....

The deal isn't "official" yet, right? Have their been any major outlets/analysts (Woj/KOC/etc.) that have mentioned a final deal on this yet in regards to either being just an outright signing w/ stretching Batum or a S&T w/ Boston?

Seems like lots of smoke but nothing other than speculation.

The destination - GH on a $120 mil deal - is agreed on by GH and the Hornets. In question is how they get there.

We don't know if the delay is just Cha / Bos negotiations or if they are looking to make this part of a bigger deal (3rd team, different mega-star trade, or whatever).

Boston had a press conference scheduled for today, but that's been pushed back. It's fueling speculation that this deal is getting bigger rather than just being simple two party negotiations.

[Rich4114]

I've seen some toss around the idea of Hayward averaging 20/5/5 next season with us. Considering he's never averaged 20/5/5 in a season before and only ever averaged 5 assists once in a season, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

I could see him putting up more like 18/4/3 with good percentages of 45/38/85 and about 5 FTA's per game.

What does everyone else think?

He's never been the type of player who carries a team in terms of ppg, he is a high efficiency player who enables others around him to be better from what I can tell. So I think your 18/4/3 is more in line with what kind of stats we might see but we also have solid go-to options down the stretch when we need a positive play or a clutch shot in addition to overall more playmaking between what we already had and adding Ball + Hayward to that. Not to mention the playmaking Monk was demonstrating before his suspension. Where we will continue to get killed is in the paint and rebounding.

[BigSlam]

I've seen some toss around the idea of Hayward averaging 20/5/5 next season with us. Considering he's never averaged 20/5/5 in a season before and only ever averaged 5 assists once in a season, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

I could see him putting up more like 18/4/3 with good percentages of 45/38/85 and about 5 FTA's per game.

What does everyone else think?

I don't think you're crazy.

I also worry about the guy in a condensed season as well.

I mean, the only dudes to average at least 20/5/5 last season were guys like:
Antetokounmpo
Jokic
Doncic
Westbrook
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden

[JMAC3]

Hard to say because I think a lot of it depends on how much scoring we get from our other good players. hayward averaged 17.5 ppg on 13.5 shots last season. Rozier and Graham both averaged 15 shots a game last season. Bridges 11.5 and PJ 10 shots.

Think Hayward probably gets to 16 shots a game for us, so I think 20 points is doable. He was third on Celtics in assists at 4.1 on 21.1% usage. Think his usage definitely goes up to around 25% or so which should allow him to duplicate his assists numbers at very least.

[HornetJail]

I'm going with 19/7/4 on 57-58 TS%

[Chapelchilla]

I think 20/4/5 is about right

[Chapelchilla]

Also- we don’t know what Balls potential is yet
Anywhere from Magic to MCW seems possible at this point

[BigSlam]

Brandon Ingram has agreed to a five-year, $158 million contract with the New Orleans Pelicans.

Looks like Ingram got around the same yearly money as Hayward, but with 1 additional year.

Does that make people feel any better or worse about Hayward's deal?

[HornetJail]

Brandon Ingram has agreed to a five-year, $158 million contract with the New Orleans Pelicans.

Looks like Ingram got around the same yearly money as Hayward, but with 1 additional year.

Does that make people feel any better or worse about Hayward's deal?

Ingram is 8 years younger and arguably better so no

[Malapropism]

Is Charlotte going to have the full MLE after this deal goes through?

Thinking Whiteside is on the way.

[JMAC3]

Brandon Ingram has agreed to a five-year, $158 million contract with the New Orleans Pelicans.

Looks like Ingram got around the same yearly money as Hayward, but with 1 additional year.

Does that make people feel any better or worse about Hayward's deal?

Obviously we would rather have Ingram, but so would another 15 teams offered him the Max if they could have.

[James Gatz]

Brandon Ingram has agreed to a five-year, $158 million contract with the New Orleans Pelicans.

Looks like Ingram got around the same yearly money as Hayward, but with 1 additional year.

Does that make people feel any better or worse about Hayward's deal?

I'm about the same. Ingram is clearly on a better deal. Ingram is also 23 and last year averaged 24/6/4 on 46/39/85. He's younger and better and getting paid about the same. They have also made the same amount of all-star teams in their career.

Not like he was available to us though. Pels would have matched any contract.

[BlackOutBuzz]

That's also the absolute max Ingram could get at his years of service, plus he's restricted. A true open market for a young all-star like him probably pushes over $40M/year.

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[Braggins]

Ainge has to play ball with Mitch. They have no way to add talent going forward without trading Kemba and/or Smart. And that would just deplete their depth even more. We 100% have the upper hand in these negotiations, but unlike Ainge I doubt Mitch is going to make absurd demands. Take Batum for a 2nd, or Zeller/Rozier for a 1st; it's your call Ainge.

I think the thing to understand from Ainge's perspective is that he never was on board with the S&T to IND. He was offering the same contract to Hayward and could actually pay him.

Boston will do neither of those options because they don't have the space and will be hard capped with the Thompson signing. CHA can waive and stretch Batum and it just screws your cap space for next year. I don't understand the concept of adding Hayward and then moving Rozier or Zeller I would think that was the core you are going to try and win with while the kids develop. Boston can and might be willing to take back Zeller and that would make the deal go through but I wouldn't be surprised if he does ask for a pick for that.

Getting a wing may be ideal, but if you guys get nothing back then Smart moves to the starting lineup and you guys look really weak at backup PG. Rozier costs 12 million less than the reported Hayward deal and would help replace the scoring punch you lose with Hayward. I would think that if we can't find a three team deal that you guys would prefer to get Rozier over getting nothing, assuming adding Rozier doesn't hard cap you or anything. Zeller is our only reasonable center option and I think we'd rather keep him for this next season and his expiring contract should have some value to us. I would personally be willing to send you guys Rozier without taking back any picks or additional value just to mitigate the cap damage from the Hayward deal, which I think is awful and want no part of in the first place, but if we were to get something else back Id prefer to poach Robert Williams III over any picks since he looks to be your guys 3rd stringer and we are desperate for live bodies at C.

[sully00]

Ainge has to play ball with Mitch. They have no way to add talent going forward without trading Kemba and/or Smart. And that would just deplete their depth even more. We 100% have the upper hand in these negotiations, but unlike Ainge I doubt Mitch is going to make absurd demands. Take Batum for a 2nd, or Zeller/Rozier for a 1st; it's your call Ainge.

I think the thing to understand from Ainge's perspective is that he never was on board with the S&T to IND. He was offering the same contract to Hayward and could actually pay him.

Boston will do neither of those options because they don't have the space and will be hard capped with the Thompson signing. CHA can waive and stretch Batum and it just screws your cap space for next year. I don't understand the concept of adding Hayward and then moving Rozier or Zeller I would think that was the core you are going to try and win with while the kids develop. Boston can and might be willing to take back Zeller and that would make the deal go through but I wouldn't be surprised if he does ask for a pick for that.

Getting a wing may be ideal, but if you guys get nothing back then Smart moves to the starting lineup and you guys look really weak at backup PG. Rozier costs 12 million less than the reported Hayward deal and would help replace the scoring punch you lose with Hayward. I would think that if we can't find a three team deal that you guys would prefer to get Rozier over getting nothing, assuming adding Rozier doesn't hard cap you or anything. Zeller is our only reasonable center option and I think we'd rather keep him for this next season and his expiring contract should have some value to us. I would personally be willing to send you guys Rozier without taking back any picks or additional value just to mitigate the cap damage from the Hayward deal, which I think is awful and want no part of in the first place, but if we were to get something else back Id prefer to poach Robert Williams III over any picks since he looks to be your guys 3rd stringer and we are desperate for live bodies at C.

I am not against Rozier, but their is a feeling that there is some bad blood between him and the organization. He also just isn't the same player coming off the bench as he is as a starter. Boston brought in Teague and drafted a PG, and has Edwards so they have quantity if not quality behind Walker and Smart.

I think that BOS and CHA can probably find Rozier home and that might be what they are working on.