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Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#481 » by MasterIchiro » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:08 pm

sully00 wrote:
Braggins wrote:
sully00 wrote:
I think the thing to understand from Ainge's perspective is that he never was on board with the S&T to IND. He was offering the same contract to Hayward and could actually pay him.

Boston will do neither of those options because they don't have the space and will be hard capped with the Thompson signing. CHA can waive and stretch Batum and it just screws your cap space for next year. I don't understand the concept of adding Hayward and then moving Rozier or Zeller I would think that was the core you are going to try and win with while the kids develop. Boston can and might be willing to take back Zeller and that would make the deal go through but I wouldn't be surprised if he does ask for a pick for that.

Getting a wing may be ideal, but if you guys get nothing back then Smart moves to the starting lineup and you guys look really weak at backup PG. Rozier costs 12 million less than the reported Hayward deal and would help replace the scoring punch you lose with Hayward. I would think that if we can't find a three team deal that you guys would prefer to get Rozier over getting nothing, assuming adding Rozier doesn't hard cap you or anything. Zeller is our only reasonable center option and I think we'd rather keep him for this next season and his expiring contract should have some value to us. I would personally be willing to send you guys Rozier without taking back any picks or additional value just to mitigate the cap damage from the Hayward deal, which I think is awful and want no part of in the first place, but if we were to get something else back Id prefer to poach Robert Williams III over any picks since he looks to be your guys 3rd stringer and we are desperate for live bodies at C.


I am not against Rozier, but their is a feeling that there is some bad blood between him and the organization. He also just isn't the same player coming off the bench as he is as a starter. Boston brought in Teague and drafted a PG, and has Edwards so they have quantity if not quality behind Walker and Smart.

I think that BOS and CHA can probably find Rozier home and that might be what they are working on.


I think fans underestimate Rozier's market. I don't think Ainge and Kupchak are scraping the barrel to find him a home. I believe they have a pre-approval letter and are viewing multiple homes and weighing the offers. I actually believe there are two teams bidding on Rozier, Knicks and Clippers, possibly more.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#482 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:29 pm

BlackOutBuzz wrote:That's also the absolute max Ingram could get at his years of service, plus he's restricted. A true open market for a young all-star like him probably pushes over $40M/year.

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Yep. His next contract (3rd, which is what Gordon is currently on) he will get 200 plus million.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#483 » by Braggins » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:03 pm

They need to wrap this **** up. Its starting to get annoying.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#484 » by Chapelchilla » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:17 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:
BlackOutBuzz wrote:That's also the absolute max Ingram could get at his years of service, plus he's restricted. A true open market for a young all-star like him probably pushes over $40M/year.

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Yep. His next contract (3rd, which is what Gordon is currently on) he will get 200 plus million.


Right, it's not even a relevant comparison to make. It would be like us resigning a Ball as a RFA for his extension/salary slot and some other team saying geez why are we paying xxyz FA agent more then that....it doesn't make sense
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#485 » by MasterIchiro » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:56 am

Braggins wrote:They need to wrap this **** up. Its starting to get annoying.


Starting? It feels like it's been annoying AF for days. Only Bobsbuddy can save us now. We need one or his blockbusters to get out of this mess!

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#486 » by yosemiteben » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:25 am

I've been wondering about motivations here - is Ainge incentivized to help us find a good deal such that we are essentially aligned, or do you think we have conflicting goals here? Just wondering if it's easier or harder for a deal to happen given the current state of things. I like to think that with two FOs both working to find a deal, that that would increase the likelihood of a more favorable deal, but that might just be wishful thinking.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#487 » by MasterIchiro » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:31 am

yosemiteben wrote:I've been wondering about motivations here - is Ainge incentivized to help us find a good deal such that we are essentially aligned, or do you think we have conflicting goals here? Just wondering if it's easier or harder for a deal to happen given the current state of things. I like to think that with two FOs both working to find a deal, that that would increase the likelihood of a more favorable deal, but that might just be wishful thinking.


The drawn out delay is either opposing goals or weighing multiple options. Since I believe Rozier is involved and that Rozier has multiple bidders, I think the Celtics are weighing incoming talent and compensation.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#488 » by BigSlam » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:46 am

yosemiteben wrote:I've been wondering about motivations here - is Ainge incentivized to help us find a good deal such that we are essentially aligned, or do you think we have conflicting goals here? Just wondering if it's easier or harder for a deal to happen given the current state of things. I like to think that with two FOs both working to find a deal, that that would increase the likelihood of a more favorable deal, but that might just be wishful thinking.

Considering their FO worked with our FO over the Walker/Rozier S&T’s when they really didn’t have to you’d think there might be some good will there and they are working together now?


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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#489 » by LofJ » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:53 am

BigSlam wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:I've been wondering about motivations here - is Ainge incentivized to help us find a good deal such that we are essentially aligned, or do you think we have conflicting goals here? Just wondering if it's easier or harder for a deal to happen given the current state of things. I like to think that with two FOs both working to find a deal, that that would increase the likelihood of a more favorable deal, but that might just be wishful thinking.

Considering their FO worked with our FO over the Walker/Rozier S&T’s when they really didn’t have to you’d think there might be some good will there and they are working together now?


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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#490 » by BigSlam » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:54 am

Charlotte inked the former Boston Celtics star to a four-year, $120 million deal, but Hayward apparently had a contract of similar length available to him with the Knicks:

"The Knicks, for the record, were in the Hayward chase throughout. After the Knicks weighed their own trade for Westbrook, they pursued Hayward much harder, with Coach Tom Thibodeau serving as lead admirer. The Knicks eventually decided to increase their offer to four years from two to compete with sign-and-trade interest from Indiana and Charlotte, but the Hornets went to a financial level for Hayward that no rival was willing to match."




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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#492 » by DY_nasty » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:42 pm

Braggins wrote:They need to wrap this **** up. Its starting to get annoying.

im praying it falls through
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#493 » by Snidely FC » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 pm

Chapelchilla wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
BlackOutBuzz wrote:That's also the absolute max Ingram could get at his years of service, plus he's restricted. A true open market for a young all-star like him probably pushes over $40M/year.

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Yep. His next contract (3rd, which is what Gordon is currently on) he will get 200 plus million.


Right, it's not even a relevant comparison to make. It would be like us resigning a Ball as a RFA for his extension/salary slot and some other team saying geez why are we paying xxyz FA agent more then that....it doesn't make sense

But Ingram signing below market is relevant to all NBA teams and especially small market ones
its the whole reason you want to draft well
because a team can control its draftee's salaries for ten years
that's why drafting someone like Lamelo Ball amounts to best possible financial stewardship for this club
because if he excels then you can sign him to a 5 yr extension below market rates like NOP just did with Ingram and MIA just did with Bam Adebayo
it's why you want to draft well again in 2021 and 2022
and then have cap space to extend your stud draftees as they become eligible
and its is why in relative terms blowing cap space on a 30 yr old Gordon Hayward amounts to financial malfeasance if not pure stupidity
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#494 » by yosemiteben » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:34 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
Braggins wrote:They need to wrap this **** up. Its starting to get annoying.

im praying it falls through

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#495 » by Braggins » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:42 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
Braggins wrote:They need to wrap this **** up. Its starting to get annoying.

im praying it falls through

Same. Can't imagine it happening though.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#496 » by yosemiteben » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:48 pm

You guys want us to stretch Batum?
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#497 » by Braggins » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:53 pm

I meant I want the Hayward deal to not happen at all. Can't see it happening because we seem ok with just stretching Batum if we can't work anything out, but if somehow Mitch/MJ were also bluffing about the stretch then I hope they can't agree on anything and they just let Hayward go completely.

They'd probably just pivot to signing Whiteside to a 4/60 deal or something if that happened though lol.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#498 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:03 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
Braggins wrote:They need to wrap this **** up. Its starting to get annoying.

im praying it falls through

It's not going to fall through.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#499 » by DY_nasty » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:20 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:
Braggins wrote:They need to wrap this **** up. Its starting to get annoying.

im praying it falls through

It's not going to fall through.

yal let unc talk up tyler terry for months and got no problem with people comparing lamelo to pistol pete :lol: i deserve hope too
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#500 » by JMAC3 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:35 pm

I think one way to look at this is what would you be willing to trade for Hayward if he wasn't a free agent? Would you trade Monk for him? Would you trade Rozier for him? Would you trade a first for him?

That is the way we could be looking at if we are able to dump Batum contract to another team by giving an asset away. Because if we can trade Batum and an asset to another team we will still have the original 20 million of cap space we came into the summer with.

If you big brain it a little bit.. it might be worth it to trade Batum Salary and Monk/our first, open up 20 million in cap and then use that cap to fill the spot with a player a team might be willing to dump and possibly get an asset back along with it. ex: Aaron Gordon, Valanciunas, Olynyk...

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