Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3 + 1

[hood30]

I present Lin's 2015-16 season as my argument to counter this statement.

Lin did not have any offer to start last summer...Dallas Mavericks was the only genuine option and they really wanted to sign Lin but had to get the DeAndre Jordan max contract done before signing Lin..

Once that broke-down, Deron Williams became available and he's a Dallas native, so they had to go with him instead of Lin....Interestingly, there are now some buzz that they may try to lure Lin to Dallas this time around since Deron William is so injury prone...Deron William is also opting out of his contract with the Mavs.

But from my understanding, Lin did not have any serious offer for good money and starting role last summer and was pretty-much cornered into taking the Hornets offer..It was the best he could do for a 1 year rental and than test the market again this summer ..We should see if this summer would be different than last summer.

His point is that pay doesn't always correlate with play. See also Jeremy Lamb 2015-2016.

From my understanding, Lamb contract will only kick in next campaign, so basically, he's still under his old contract and will only get his $7M/per when the season start again.

My guess is if Lamb is not traded, there will a bit more pressure on Clifford to play Lamb. Maybe the reason why they didn't bother playing him much is because he wasn't getting paid the big buck yet. For Lamb's sick, I hope he's given the chance to justify this contract.

[yosemiteben]

Al Jefferson ($13.8M this season) played 25 MPG pre-ASB and 22 MPG post-ASB. Lin ($2.1M this season) played 27 MPG pre-ASB and 25 MPG post-ASB.

It is absurd to argue that if Lin doesn't make more money, he won't play as much in Charlotte after the season we just witnessed.

[steady]

I am assuming LIn would be willing to give a substantial discount, but how much are you guys thinking? if you were Rich Cho, how much would you offer Lin? I think everyone would agree at least the MLE, but more than that, or not?

Keeping in mind that the Hornets seem like they want to add a big new piece in the center position and clearly want to keep Batum.

[fatlever]

I can find 100s of recent examples of guys with less $ on a contract playing ahead of guys with more $ on a contract. Troy Daniels and Hairston playing ahead of Jeremy Lamb this year, Jason Maxiel ahead of Biyombo last year, Henderson ahead of Lance Stephenson last year, Douglas-Roberts, Jeff Taylor and Anthony Tolliver ahead of Ben Gordon two years ago. These are just examples for the Hornets under Clifford. He has a pretty clear pattern of playing who he wants, regardless of their contract, and to the best of my knowledge the front office has never intervened with his rotations.

[sidestep]

The bigger the contract, the bigger the role on the team.

I present Lin's 2015-16 season as my counter-argument to counter this theory.

This season is indeed a good case example. It is both an exceptional case, and a representative one.

Exceptional because everyone knows his contract was undervalued, just like a sale item at the supermarket. A short-term lowering of the price with the intention of promoting the product in the long term; likewise, a pay cut taken with the expectation of a higher pay day.

The case is also representative because the contract value roughly correlates with Lin's place in the pecking order. In the playoffs, Lin was able to be a factor mainly because Batum was injured. When Batum was given the green light to return, Lin's opportunities went back to its usual place. Less than 20 minutes in an elimination game, despite a really short playoff rotation, an exhausted Kemba, and injuries up and down the roster. In the regular season, when MKG returned, Lin's minutes were also diminished.

The point here is not which of these players is better or whatever, but regardless of the player evaluation, the general principle is: If the organization values you, you will be paid. And if you want to be highly valued on the court, then you must also be valued on the contract books.

As for fatlever's comments, he's right that the role is not directly proportional to the contract amount -- no one ever argued for proportionality. But the two are still roughly correlated.

[2k15]

I can find 100s of recent examples of guys with less $ on a contract playing ahead of guys with more $ on a contract. Troy Daniels and Hairston playing ahead of Jeremy Lamb this year, Jason Maxiel ahead of Biyombo last year, Henderson ahead of Lance Stephenson last year, Douglas-Roberts, Jeff Taylor and Anthony Tolliver ahead of Ben Gordon two years ago. These are just examples for the Hornets under Clifford. He has a pretty clear pattern of playing who he wants, regardless of their contract, and to the best of my knowledge the front office has never intervened with his rotations.

In fairness to the other side, how many of those guys you listed are still on the roster today? Contract obviously matters and much more so if the horizon is longer but on a game by game basis, I agree that Clifford generally plays to win, and not with an eye on the contract numbers.

[Guitardude1945]

If you are the same "guitardude" that was banned earlier today, I strongly suggest you stop posting. - YB

[tonman]

The bigger the contract, the bigger the role on the team.

I present Lin's 2015-16 season as my argument to counter this statement.

Lin did not have any offer to start last summer...Dallas Mavericks was the only genuine option and they really wanted to sign Lin but had to get the DeAndre Jordan max contract done before signing Lin..

Once that broke-down, Deron Williams became available and he's a Dallas native, so they had to go with him instead of Lin....Interestingly, there are now some buzz that they may try to lure Lin to Dallas this time around since Deron William is so injury prone...Deron William is also opting out of his contract with the Mavs.

But from my understanding, Lin did not have any serious offer for good money and starting role last summer and was pretty-much cornered into taking the Hornets offer....So it was not a situation where he rejected a better contract with bigger role to sign with Charlotte who were offering a bench role and low pay.

It was the best he could do for a 1 year rental and than test the market again this summer ..We should see if this summer would be different than last summer.

Last summer wasn't a good indication of lins potential offers. Most folks were waiting on dominoes to fall and the big one was Jordan. Since that backfired after being confirmed Lin just went to Charlotte. If he held out longer he probably would have gotten an mle offer somewhere. Since he believe Charlotte and their pitch there was no reason to wait.

[2k15]

Actually he averaged just over 23 minutes a night with MKG in the lineup versus an average of 26 for the season as a whole. During that time, specifically, his minutes seemed to be directly related to his scoring efficiency. Three of those six nights he shot 50% or better and, in turn, saw an average of 28 minutes per game. The three other games he shot terribly (combined average of 17.4%) and received an average of 19 minutes per game.

Your doing your maths wrong, bruh, or manipulating the numbers to suit your needs, which is probably worse. MKG only played 7 games for the Hornets in 2015-16. In those games that MKG played and JLin came off the bench, which is 4: Lin only played 21.25 minutes per game, compared with 26.5 minutes/game in the season without MKG. Lin also only took 6.75 shots/game, compared with 9.4 shots/game the rest of the season without MKG. It's even worse if you look at the 3 games after the first game MKG came back where Lin came off the bench: 6 shots per game in 19 minutes per game. Lin's complete usage numbers with MKG are inflated, because in 2 of the 6 games, another important player was injured and Lin started.

All in all, this completely confirms the significantly reduced role Lin will have if Walker, Batum, and MKG are to return. He will, as we mentioned before, likely play between 15-20 minutes/game, while shooting around 6 times/game. Again, I'm sure this likely will not allow him to play to his potential lol.

I won't lie - it would be disappointing as a fan for him to come back and only play 15 minutes next year. I might finally understand what Euphorbus feels like every game.

[hood30]

I can find 100s of recent examples of guys with less $ on a contract playing ahead of guys with more $ on a contract. Troy Daniels and Hairston playing ahead of Jeremy Lamb this year, Jason Maxiel ahead of Biyombo last year, Henderson ahead of Lance Stephenson last year, Douglas-Roberts, Jeff Taylor and Anthony Tolliver ahead of Ben Gordon two years ago. These are just examples for the Hornets under Clifford. He has a pretty clear pattern of playing who he wants, regardless of their contract, and to the best of my knowledge the front office has never intervened with his rotations.

In fairness to the other side, how many of those guys you listed are still on the roster today? Contract obviously matters and much more so if the horizon is longer but on a game by game basis, I agree that Clifford generally plays to win, and not with an eye on the contract numbers.

You could also make a case that if Clifford really didn't care about money and pecking order as for #1/#2 option, he would had given Lin more minutes in game 7 instead of relying so heavily on his big money players. .....Lin ended up playing 19 minutes in the biggest game of the year...That's a guy that played a major role in Charlotte 3 victories in the serie...I thought that was extremely disappointing to see.

[2k15]

You could also make a case that if Clifford really didn't care about money and pecking order as for #1/#2 option, he would had given Lin more minutes in game 7 instead of relying so heavily on his big money players. .....Lin ended up playing 19 minutes in the biggest game of the year...That's a guy that played a major role in Charlotte 3 victories in the serie...I thought that was extremely disappointing to see.

Kemba was huge in game 6 and has consistently been huge over the course of the regular season. I don't understand why Lin didn't play more but I don't fault him with riding Kemba. Batum on the other hand...similar logic I guess. I thought game 7 was much more of a coaching loss than game 1 or 2. Especially with him saying that he added new wrinkles to the game plan which the players weren't able to execute on...don't add new **** before the biggest game of the season.

[spaceballer]

Looks like Cody wasn't the only one who wanted to get a Lin jersey. But instead of buying one in a gift shop like Cody, the Heat players decided to just grab a random one from the court




And it looks like JLin took a shot to the nuts for the Hornets. Not sure how much more "physical" Cliff thinks he can play.

[yosemiteben]

You could also make a case that if Clifford really didn't care about money and pecking order as for #1/#2 option, he would had given Lin more minutes in game 7 instead of relying so heavily on his big money players.

So the argument is that he played Lin less in Game 7 because of the size of his contract? Really?

[hood30]

Actually he averaged just over 23 minutes a night with MKG in the lineup versus an average of 26 for the season as a whole. During that time, specifically, his minutes seemed to be directly related to his scoring efficiency. Three of those six nights he shot 50% or better and, in turn, saw an average of 28 minutes per game. The three other games he shot terribly (combined average of 17.4%) and received an average of 19 minutes per game.

Your doing your maths wrong, bruh, or manipulating the numbers to suit your needs, which is probably worse. MKG only played 7 games for the Hornets in 2015-16. In those games that MKG played and JLin came off the bench, which is 4: Lin only played 21.25 minutes per game, compared with 26.5 minutes/game in the season without MKG. Lin also only took 6.75 shots/game, compared with 9.4 shots/game the rest of the season without MKG. It's even worse if you look at the 3 games after the first game MKG came back where Lin came off the bench: 6 shots per game in 19 minutes per game. Lin's complete usage numbers with MKG are inflated, because in 2 of the 6 games, another important player was injured and Lin started.

All in all, this completely confirms the significantly reduced role Lin will have if Walker, Batum, and MKG are to return. He will, as we mentioned before, likely play between 15-20 minutes/game, while shooting around 6 times/game. Again, I'm sure this likely will not allow him to play to his potential lol.

I won't lie - it would be disappointing as a fan for him to come back and only play 15 minutes next year. I might finally understand what Euphorbus feels like every game.

That's really the main concern many Lin fan have...It'll be hard to swallow watching Lin be demoted to an even lesser role than last year while being on a steep discount...We'll see how much Lin loves his teammates. Coming off the bench is cool, as long as you get your 25mpg. anything less than that would be embarrassing.

[hood30]

You could also make a case that if Clifford really didn't care about money and pecking order as for #1/#2 option, he would had given Lin more minutes in game 7 instead of relying so heavily on his big money players.

So the argument is that he played Lin less in Game 7 because of the size of his contract? Really?

From what I've understood, the case that is being made is whether Clifford totally doesn't care about player's status/pecking order and money...I think it is clear that he has very strong preference for certain players and those are the big money players which is his right.

Kemba had a great year and all but I never understood giving him so many minutes, specially when you have what many believe is the best "back-up PG" in the league...You'd think that having Lin on the team means you don't have to kill Kemba with massive minutes every freaking nights...No wonder why he was gassed out and shot the team out of game 7.

What's the point of even having a good back-up PG if you refuse to trust him to give your main PG proper rest?

Maybe next year, instead of playing Kemba 36mpg, he could play him 32-33mpg..This is the type of minutes guys like Paul, Teague are getting...It's still big minutes but Kemba get to rest a bit more and that allows Lin to have a bit more time to get into a rhythm.

How about Batum who was returning from injury...I think Lin was more influential in this series than Batum, but yet, Clifford rather play a less than 100% batum much more minutes than Lin.

[2k15]

After taking a couple of days to process everything from our playoff series, I just wanted to leave you with a very open and honest note to thank all my beloved fans. It's the least I can do for all your support this past season.

Athletes often say "I have the best fans in the world." When I say it, I mean it. You all support me with so much enthusiasm that every year my teammates talk about how they've never seen such die-hard fans. Sure, sometimes you guys can be a little aggressive or overwhelming for other fans and reporters haha, but I understand that comes from your love for me.

You guys showed up nightly to TWC Arena giving us a huge home court advantage. You made all of us feel like rock stars on our preseason trip to China. You flew in from different U.S. cities and countries (some which required ~18 hours of flying) just to watch regular season games. You guys cared enough about me to make and share a video of fouls committed on me. I received more gifts, support letters and fan art than I know what to do with.

Over 10,000 of you signed up for my prayer letter and diligently prayed for me throughout the season. Hundreds of you opened up about some of the most vulnerable parts of your life and asked me and my business team to pray for you guys (which we did).
THANKS for being a big reason why this was the most enjoyable season I've ever had in the NBA! Sorry we couldn't keep this playoff run going. I'm extremely sad about this season ending and miss basketball like crazy already. I seriously can't wait for my body to heal up and start training again. I try not to think about the playoffs, and turn away when I see any other playoff games. It stings because I know we could be in the 2nd round, but God is perfect through the highs and the lows, and He has never led me astray!

This past year was a step in the right direction, but I know there's another level I can get to. So as I approach the off-season, I will keep working on my game. Next year my jumper will be way better. I will come back a much better player. I want to keep having fun on the court (like I did this past year). For free agency, I will seek out every opportunity that gives me the greatest chance to be the best player I can be. I believe I'm just getting started. I have more to give and more to accomplish.

I'm excited to see what God has for me in the future! But for now, time to rest, recover and recharge myself physically and mentally. So on that note, I'm off to vacation!!

P.S had to leave you guys with one last hairdo

[bws94]

Yep, Lin sounds different now than right after the series. He's begun to process what went on and wants to do as much as possible on the court in the coming seasons. It sounds like it means exploring all of his options and then going with what seems to be best by whatever criteria and process he goes about doing it. It may mean a Lin appreciation thread here, or not. Right now, let him rest, chill out and try to enjoy his time off until he prepares for FA negotiations, considerations and then working on his game off-season.

[hood30]

This past year was a step in the right direction, but I know there's another level I can get to. So as I approach the off-season, I will keep working on my game. Next year my jumper will be way better. I will come back a much better player. I want to keep having fun on the court (like I did this past year). For free agency, I will seek out every opportunity that gives me the greatest chance to be the best player I can be. I believe I'm just getting started. I have more to give and more to accomplish.

I'm excited to see what God has for me in the future! But for now, time to rest, recover and recharge myself physically and mentally. So on that note, I'm off to vacation!!

P.S had to leave you guys with one last hairdo

This message from Lin sound much better as for wanting to explore every opportunity that gives him the greatest chance to be the best player that he can be.

Maybe his agent got to him and let him know it wasn't smart to already be offering Charlotte a discount for his service...At least wait and see how many minutes Clifford is planning to play you next year when MKG is back....So that message sound less desperate and it feels like Lin will at least listen to any offers being presented to him.

[TinmanZBoy]

^
my gosh, this crawfish hairstyle is ugly...
ok, Jeremy Spoken... everybody needs to chill now...

[2k15]

^^He probably got a lot of angry messages from his fans after his exit interview (not too different from the emotions that we've seen here in this thread).