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Offseason 2025 Thread

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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#561 » by JMAC3 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:35 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Shocker you were on board with the team when wanted to keep Mark, now you are on board when the team wanted to trade Mark.

Shocker that you don't engage substantively with my post

And I did a long form post about the Mark trade that was very much not "whatever we do is great and smart so this must be great".


Your post was basically, when we traded him and he was back with the team I believed in him. But once we traded him again and he was gone it was the right decision.

yosemiteben wrote:They obviously moved Mark because they are stupid and arbitrarily decided they didn't like him for no reason. His health status was not relevant and there's no reason to assume that it will be an issue going forward


This was you being engaged substantively a minute ago?
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#562 » by JDR720 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:36 pm

The thing with Mark's injury risk isn't for next season, it's that he's due an extension and we don't want to pay him because of his injury risk.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#563 » by JDR720 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:38 pm

The issue I have with the trade is McNeeley is basically Kon but worse. Seems odd to double-down on the same type of player for both of our picks. He was viewed as a top 20-ish pick and was a highly rated college recruit, but still. Our roster overall is pretty unbalanced.

If we would've picked Flemming or someone like that I'd be more okay with it.

I'd give the trade a C- as is.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#564 » by JMAC3 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:40 pm

JDR720 wrote:The issue I'd have with the trade is McNeeley is basically Kon.

If we would've picked Flemming or someone like that I'd be more okay with it.

I'd give the trade a C- as is.


Draft makes a lot more sense if you take Malauch, Ace or Tre at 4 if you were going to trade Mark and draft McNeely.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#565 » by fatlever » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:44 pm

Obviously this situation is a lot more complicated than Mark was a good player we should have kept him or The front office didn't value him therefore wanted to get assets in return.

none of us really have any idea what the medical situation truly looks like. The situation was like behind closed doors once he returned from being traded. Or even what the situation was that led them to agree to trade him in the first place. It's a lot more complicated than just his statistical production.

i'd love to have all the answers.

At the end of the day it sucks because we use a valuable pick to draft him and trade it away another valuable center (durant) in favor of Mark. Asked on taking two potential lottery centers in the draft last year because the front office believed in Mark. Something happened between last summer and the middle of last year.

the version we saw of Mark last year was not winning us any games. He was putting up some of the emptiest stats I've ever seen from a player in a Hornet's uniform. kelly oubre level empty stats.

It's possible with another offseason of strength and conditioning and another season removed from his mystery back injury that he would have looked like a much better player next year. I have no doubt he'll put up some gaudy stats for the Suns next year. Not entirely convinced it will impact their win column in any significant way though.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#566 » by JDR720 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:45 pm

Our roster is very slanted towards offense, especially the starters.


Melo - Mann - KJ
Kon - Green - Sion- NSJ
Miller - Okogie- McNeeley
Miles - Grant - Salaun
Nurkic - Moose - Kalk

Need to get a wing defender with size and a center and a PF.

I'd put Miles on the trade block, Nurkic too if possible. Our PG-SF is more or less set, the frontcourt needs a lot of work.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#567 » by Braggins » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:52 pm

I think it was a factor in their decision to trade him that they seem to be forcing the Celtics system on this roster and want bigs that can either switch on the perimeter, or shoot 3s, or both. I actually think part of it is that they don't value Marks skillset as much as some of us do because of this. The health risk surely played a part and may have been the primary factor, but I'm not convinced thats the entire story.

I don't agree if that is what they plan on doing because I don't think that style fits LaMelo at all and I dont think Charles Lee has the clout or has done anything to prove that they should be basing their roster decisions on what his exact preferred style is. You can't always try to build an idealized version of the team you want and have to play the cards youre dealt. Its difficult for a franchise like Charlotte to get high end talent and when they are able to get talented players they need to be able to adjust to some extent to build around them.

I think they should be building the team around what makes sense for LaMelo and not what Charles Lee likes. Mark Williams may not be a great fit for a team built around Tatum/Brown, but hes a pretty damn good fit on a team built around LaMelo.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#568 » by JMAC3 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:52 pm

JDR720 wrote:Our roster is very slanted towards offense, especially the starters.


Melo - Mann - KJ
Kon - Green - Sion- NSJ
Miller - Okogie- McNeeley
Miles - Grant - Salaun
Nurkic - Moose - Kalk

Need to get a wing defender with size and a center and a PF.

I'd put Miles on the trade block, Nurkic too if possible. Our PG-SF is more or less set, the frontcourt needs a lot of work.


Josh Okogie deadline to pick up his guaranteed salary is 6/30. So we might hear news on that pretty soon, given teams/players can agree to push out the date.

That is 16 players listed above, with basically no Veterans. Maybe KJ and Sion are on 2way deals again, but that still puts us in a roster crunch.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#569 » by fatlever » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:53 pm

JDR720 wrote:Our roster is very slanted towards offense, especially the starters.


Melo - Mann - KJ
Kon - Green - Sion- NSJ
Miller - Okogie- McNeeley
Miles - Grant - Salaun
Nurkic - Moose - Kalk

Need to get a wing defender with size and a center and a PF.

I'd put Miles on the trade block, Nurkic too if possible. Our PG-SF is more or less set, the frontcourt needs a lot of work.


Possible that lee Continues to start at least one wing defender in between melo/miller - green or okogie, with kon Coming off the bench for his rookie season. I don't necessarily agree with that strategy. If you took him at 4 I think you have to put him in the starting lineup. vj Was the only seamless fit for our starting lineup tho. either way, kon plays 25 mpg next year.

in other news... melo/miller have to get better defensively. Neither should get a pass this year. They both have the tools to be better defenders. I certainly believe Miller can take a pretty big step defensively next year. melo is the question mark.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#570 » by JDR720 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:55 pm

One thing I'm pretty sure about is NSJ is done for.

We just drafted 2 players that do his role (shooting) but are bigger and smarter. With Mann coming back too, he has no place on the team at all.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#571 » by Braggins » Fri Jun 27, 2025 5:55 pm

They should keep Okogie and he should start over Kon imo.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#572 » by fatlever » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:03 pm

I'm a huge okogie stan. he and moose Are currently my two favorite Hornets. given what we just watched in the playoffs I think it would be foolish to not pick up the contract of okogie, unless the plan is to replace him with a better version poa/wing defender. I think there's two things right now in the league that you can't have enough of and that's guys on the wing that can defend and guys on the wing that can shoot. If you find guys that can do both you hang on to them until some other team offers you for first round picks.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#573 » by fatlever » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:07 pm

JDR720 wrote:One thing I'm pretty sure about is NSJ is done for.

We just drafted 2 players that do his role (shooting) but are bigger and smarter. With Mann coming back too, he has no place on the team at all.


I would look for a deal this summer to trade him for a future second round pick or something to a team That can absorb him or for a player on an unguaranteed deal or something. free up a roster spot. The only way I'm bringing him back is if somehow mann signs somewhere else. I'll let the cap nerds figured out the rest.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#574 » by Braggins » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:08 pm

Its hard to imagine a lineup of LaMelo/Kon/Miller/Miles/Nurk not being the worst defensive starting lineup in the league.

This roster would make a lot more sense if they traded a million draft picks for Bam Adebayo.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#575 » by JDR720 » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:14 pm

Braggins wrote:Its hard to imagine a lineup of LaMelo/Kon/Miller/Miles/Nurk not being the worst defensive starting lineup in the league.

This roster would make a lot more sense if they traded a million draft picks for Bam Adebayo.

A thing I'm concerned about is this team is also very unathletic. Kon/Liam/Sion and Kalk are all not great athletically. So are Melo, Miller and Salaun.

The only guy on the team that's an above average athlete is Miles and maybe KJ/Okogie.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#576 » by yosemiteben » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:16 pm

Braggins wrote:I would rather incur the risk of him having a career ending injury and basically going to zero value than trade him for the package they got.

Good post, just quoting this part but wanted to make sure you knew I read the whole thing and think it was well thought out. Also I appreciate you taking the time to do it, I promise I have a brain that I use and I'm not just going on around parroting pro-FO takes because I'm too lazy to think.

The issue for me is we now need to extend him or risk losing him. I'm not comfortable extending him and see that as grabbing value while we can. You clearly are more comfortable hoping he recovers and can stay healthy, which is not where I am but is reasonable and not something I specifically have an issue with.

As fats more recent post suggests, one of the downsides here is we're all speaking about an issue where we are at an information deficit. Who tf knows what shows up when Mark gets a thorough physical. That information asymmetry makes it very difficult to analyze the risk proposition that we are facing with him or judge the team's strategy in dealing with him.

I do think I have two primary reasons why I am more ok moving on and more adverse to the injury risk. One I've mentioned several times, and that's my significant frustration with injuries on our team. I posted a few times that I was ok losing last season because my primary goal was to see who on the roster was worth building upon. Mark failed that test for me because he couldn't stay on the floor. Jury is out on Melo, I was initially hard out on him when it was announced that he was having surgery but it appears that he had minor elective surgery so I'm open to that being an overreaction. I definitely have baggage here and recognize that.

The second reason is that I think Mark very much fits what the FO talks about with the Hornets DNA values they spam. He is a high IQ, high character, coachable guy that fits the mold of what they say they want. Zach Lowe told a story that when Lee was first hired, he wanted to institute a formal accountability process where he had guys come in and they were going to talk about their goals for the season, and that when Mark came in he had a robust set of goals he had already built up that he wanted to share with the coach, which apparently Lee loved. It does not compute to me that our FO is moving on from Mark for a reason related to his approach to the game or his lack of alignment with values we're trying to build. That's a big reason why I'm leaning in on the information asymmetry and following the smoke of their being major risks going forward.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#577 » by yosemiteben » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:20 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Shocker you were on board with the team when wanted to keep Mark, now you are on board when the team wanted to trade Mark.

Shocker that you don't engage substantively with my post

And I did a long form post about the Mark trade that was very much not "whatever we do is great and smart so this must be great".


Your post was basically, when we traded him and he was back with the team I believed in him. But once we traded him again and he was gone it was the right decision.

It's the rationale supporting that thought process that is what you ignored and by this post seem to be continuing to ignore.

JMAC3 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:They obviously moved Mark because they are stupid and arbitrarily decided they didn't like him for no reason. His health status was not relevant and there's no reason to assume that it will be an issue going forward


This was you being engaged substantively a minute ago?

I'm not sure what you mean by my "being engaged substantively." In that quote, I was not substantively engaging with a specific post. There was definitely hyperbole involved and no one had specifically made that argument, and I probably should not have posted it.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#578 » by yosemiteben » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:23 pm

Braggins wrote:Its hard to imagine a lineup of LaMelo/Kon/Miller/Miles/Nurk not being the worst defensive starting lineup in the league.

This roster would make a lot more sense if they traded a million draft picks for Bam Adebayo.

I would unload obscene amounts of assets for either Bam or JJJ
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#579 » by JustBuzzin » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:54 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
Braggins wrote:Its hard to imagine a lineup of LaMelo/Kon/Miller/Miles/Nurk not being the worst defensive starting lineup in the league.

This roster would make a lot more sense if they traded a million draft picks for Bam Adebayo.

I would unload obscene amounts of assets for either Bam or JJJ

What about Jaylen Brown?

I don't think JJJ is realistically available. From what I have read Memphis values more than Ja. They also made it known they aren't trading JJJ or Ja.

Bam makes sense, but Riley will ask for the world after we finessed him with the Rozier trade lol.

I think Brown brings leadership and character to this locker room. No nonsense guy, players will follow him.
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Re: Offseason 2025 Thread 

Post#580 » by fatlever » Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:58 pm

Brown's contract scares the living **** out of me. But I am with YB I would trade An insane amount of assets for bam

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