Around the NBA 10

[LofJ]

Very few people cared about the Bobcats before MJ bought the team. The organization wasn't in a position to sustain a full rebuilding process. The situation now, while not great, is much better than it was then so I'm confident the next rebuild will produce better results.

That said due to the nature of the game and the lottery process you need to have some luck on your side. We're due for that, but I sure as heck don't expect it.

[yosemiteben]

There are a pile of players that were systematically discarded by the PHI franchise over the last five seasons, and the PHI run is currently being built on a rotation almost half of which is made up of players on one year deals (Amir Johnson and JJ Redick) or mercenary FAs (Ilyasova and Belinelli). To me that isn't strong evidence of an institutional winning culture.

[Braggins]

There are a pile of players that were systematically discarded by the PHI franchise over the last five seasons, and the PHI run is currently being built on a rotation almost half of which is made up of players on one year deals (Amir Johnson and JJ Redick) or mercenary FAs (Ilyasova and Belinelli). To me that isn't strong evidence of an institutional winning culture.

This almost seems disingenuous. Like, at least 80% of their success is based on Embiid, Simmons, Saric, Covington, and Brett Brown.

They also have max cap space and plenty of extra picks to move Bayless or whoever to clear even more. They shouldn't have any problem finding role players or even another big piece. They could potentially retain Redick, Ilyasova, and Marco, while adding Lebron and a top 10 pick from this draft. They are still in one of the best positions in the league even after their new GM pointlessly threw away a likely top 10 pick in the Fultz trade.

You conveniently forgot to mention who the players were that they systematically discarded. Are you really going to act like its a criticism that they didn't stick with guys like Spencer Hawes, Michael Carter-Williams, Jahlil Okafor, and Nerlens Noel? The only good player of those systemically discarded is Jrue Holiday.

[yosemiteben]

There are a pile of players that were systematically discarded by the PHI franchise over the last five seasons, and the PHI run is currently being built on a rotation almost half of which is made up of players on one year deals (Amir Johnson and JJ Redick) or mercenary FAs (Ilyasova and Belinelli). To me that isn't strong evidence of an institutional winning culture.

Are you being intentionally disingenuous?

Not at all. I'm dead serious. Half their rotation is guys that have not been on their roster for longer than a year and didn't sign expecting to be there past this season. I don't understand why it's disingenuous to point that out when you are making an argument about the culture of the franchise.

At least 80% of their success is based on Embiid, Simmons, Saric, Covington, and Brett Brown.

Ok? You didn't ask "who is most responsible for their success" though.

They also have max cap space and plenty of extra picks to move Bayless or whoever to clear even more. They shouldn't have any problem finding role players or even another big piece. They could potentially retain Redick, Ilyasova, and Marco, while adding Lebron and a top 10 pick from this draft. They are still in one of the best positions in the league even after their new GM pointlessly threw away a likely top 10 pick in the Fultz trade.

Again, how is this in any way related to your question about a winning culture?

You conveniently forgot to mention who the players were that they systematically discarded. Are you really going to act like its a criticism that they didn't stick with guys like Spencer Hawes, Michael Carter-Williams, Jahlil Okafor, and Nerlens Noel? The only good player of those systemically discarded is Jrue Holiday.

That is certainly not the full extent of PHI's roster churn over the last 5 seasons.

[MasterIchiro]

There is no template. The Warriors never tanked. Neither did the Rockets. It worked for the Sixers but their brand is so well established. They're an iconic squad like the Celtics and Lakers.

[stinger14]

There is no template. The Warriors never tanked. Neither did the Rockets. It worked for the Sixers but their brand is so well established. They're an iconic squad like the Celtics and Lakers.

No, the Warriors were just a very bad team that ended up drafting guys named Curry, Klay, and Draymond.

No matter if you go the route of drafting that guy or trading for that guy, you have to get that superstar player. Kemba is a star player, he is not a superstar. If we had a superstar with Kemba being our second star, then we could build something

[yosemiteben]

I do think it's interesting to think about what we mean by "winning culture" because it has been used as a warning against tanking. I just think the warning is that guys get used to losing and it's hard to get them out of that mindset. If you just abandon nearly every player that was in your rotation while you tanked save for one or two guys (right now that's Saric and Covington), and then only run your squad with top tier recent draft picks and mercenary FAs, you'll win some games but that's not what I think of when I think of a winning culture.

[SWedd523]

There are a pile of players that were systematically discarded by the PHI franchise over the last five seasons, and the PHI run is currently being built on a rotation almost half of which is made up of players on one year deals (Amir Johnson and JJ Redick) or mercenary FAs (Ilyasova and Belinelli). To me that isn't strong evidence of an institutional winning culture.

Are you being intentionally disingenuous?

Not at all. I'm dead serious. Half their rotation is guys that have not been on their roster for longer than a year and didn't sign expecting to be there past this season.

And yet, they won 52 games this season, which happens to be more than a Charlotte franchise ever has.

With a bunch of one year rentals and discards.

Who fell in line on a team built around a core of two 23 year olds, a 21 year old, and a 19 year old.

That had a combined 67 NBA starts between the four of them.

And will add another lottery pick this year while looking like the hottest destination in the league with max cap space.

I don’t know about you, but I’d much prefer the “culture” that has been built in Charlotte.

Actually... can anybody tell me what kind of culture HAS been built here? Other than abject underperformance by overpaid veterans and a lack of development by any player not named Kemba Walker? Fan interest has been on a steady decline and they’re a truly boring/forgettable team to watch

[SWedd523]

Philly sure got out of the “losing mindset” pretty damn fast

[yosemiteben]

Are we drawing any distinction between a season of winning games and developing a winning culture?

Do we think that Philly's tanking enabled a culture that has allowed them to be successful, or is the argument that culture is not important?

[LofJ]

Frank Kaminsky spoke about this the other day - the most important trait for an NBA player (other than a good work ethic) is confidence. Both of our top 4 guys - MKG and Cody - while having great work ethics do not exude confidence like Kemba. And as for the Sixers both Simmons and Embiid are supremely talented, but equally as important they're supremely confident as well. If you don't have confidence you will never be a star player in the NBA. Which sucks for MKG because he had it all, but his lack of confidence is a fatal flaw.

Thankfully, Monk has confidence in spades. If he has the work ethic to match (please basketball gods) we have a lot to look forward to. We will just need to find another player (preferably a wing) with the talent and confidence to match Monk to pair up with him.

[SWedd523]

Are you seriously trying to say that what they’ve accomplished isn’t sustainable for a very long time? They have, by far, the brightest long term outlook of any team in the league.

The “culture of losing” they developed (that everyone here treats like the plague) has already been erased. And they’ve already built an environment that almost every team is envious of: a positive outlook and future and the start of potential long term dominance. I’d take that “culture” over what has been built here.

But maybe that’s just me

[yosemiteben]

Are you seriously trying to say that what they’ve accomplished isn’t sustainable for a very long time?

No, that wasn't what I was saying or trying to say.

The “culture of losing” they developed (that everyone here treats like the plague) has already been erased. And they’ve already built an environment that almost every team is envious of: a positive outlook and future and the start of potential long term dominance. I’d take that “culture” over what has been built here.

But maybe that’s just me

So then the argument is that team culture isn't important, and can be infused once a team starts winning, even if you have to wholesale turnover your roster to do it.

[LofJ]

Are you seriously trying to say that what they’ve accomplished isn’t sustainable for a very long time?

No, that wasn't what I was saying or trying to say.

The “culture of losing” they developed (that everyone here treats like the plague) has already been erased. And they’ve already built an environment that almost every team is envious of: a positive outlook and future and the start of potential long term dominance. I’d take that “culture” over what has been built here.

But maybe that’s just me

So then the argument is that team culture isn't important, and can be infused once a team starts winning, even if you have to wholesale turnover your roster to do it.

That's almost exactly what Daryl Morey said in an interview not too long ago.

[JDR720]

the 76ers actually had a plan and stuck to it and they are now in an excellent spot, they were losing because they wanted to at that time not because they tried to win and sucked at it (like we are doing) and now they decided to try to start winning and guess what happened? They won 50+ games and it looks like they will win a playoff series. They are much closer to having a winning culture than we are and in an overall better situation, i dont think that is debatable.

[SWedd523]

Apparently it is

[MasterIchiro]

If you draft well and make smart trades you will win and attract gifted players who want to win or who hate losing. The Hornets have squandered how many high picks on how many role players? An extra year or two of tanking wasn't going to improve the long term outlook or make the team more like the Sixers. Cho passed on Klay and got a role player Biz. He passed on Beal and got a role player MKG. He passed on Booker and got a role player Frank. He passed on LaVine and got a role player Vonleh. What would the roster/outlook look like had he made two or three great picks? You're not going to make the right pick every time but because you have to account for some misfortune (Anthony Davis), it's important that you have more to show for your drafts than lottery picks that turn out to be role players (Biz, MKG, Vonleh, Kaminsky, Zeller) and busts who can't stick on NBA rosters (PJ). It seems we have been on a perpetual search to get Kemba a #2 plus a backup PG better than Sessions or MCW. All we had to do to eliminate that quest was keep Napier. All we had to do to avoid Nic was draft LaVine and maybe we'd have Jimmy Butler instead. You're not going to nail every pick as you build but you shouldn't blow every pick either. That's why Cho is out of a job and the Sixers wouldn't be where they are if Cho were making those picks for them.

[JDR720]

If you draft well and make smart trades you will win and attract gifted players who want to win or who hate losing. The Hornets have squandered how many high picks on how many role players? An extra year or two of tanking wasn't going to improve the long term outlook or make the team more like the Sixers. Cho passed on Klay and got a role player Biz. He passed on Beal and got a role player MKG. He passed on Booker and got a role player Frank. He passed on LaVine and got a role player Vonleh. What would the roster/outlook look like had he made two or three great picks? You're not going to make the right pick every time but because you have to account for some misfortune (Anthony Davis), it's important that you have more to show for your drafts than lottery picks that turn out to be role players (Biz, MKG, Vonleh, Kaminsky, Zeller) and busts who can't stick on NBA rosters (PJ). It seems we have been on a perpetual search to get Kemba a #2 plus a backup PG better than Sessions or MCW. All we had to do to eliminate that quest was keep Napier. All we had to do to avoid Nic was draft LaVine and maybe we'd have Jimmy Butler instead. You're not going to nail every pick as you build but you should try blow every pick either. That's why Cho is out of a job and the Sixers wouldn't be where they are if Cho were making those picks for them.

A lot of our draft problems are MJ and then Clifford meddling in them.

[MasterIchiro]

If you draft well and make smart trades you will win and attract gifted players who want to win or who hate losing. The Hornets have squandered how many high picks on how many role players? An extra year or two of tanking wasn't going to improve the long term outlook or make the team more like the Sixers. Cho passed on Klay and got a role player Biz. He passed on Beal and got a role player MKG. He passed on Booker and got a role player Frank. He passed on LaVine and got a role player Vonleh. What would the roster/outlook look like had he made two or three great picks? You're not going to make the right pick every time but because you have to account for some misfortune (Anthony Davis), it's important that you have more to show for your drafts than lottery picks that turn out to be role players (Biz, MKG, Vonleh, Kaminsky, Zeller) and busts who can't stick on NBA rosters (PJ). It seems we have been on a perpetual search to get Kemba a #2 plus a backup PG better than Sessions or MCW. All we had to do to eliminate that quest was keep Napier. All we had to do to avoid Nic was draft LaVine and maybe we'd have Jimmy Butler instead. You're not going to nail every pick as you build but you should try blow every pick either. That's why Cho is out of a job and the Sixers wouldn't be where they are if Cho were making those picks for them.

A lot of our draft problems are MJ and then Clifford meddling in them.

I don't care about the scapegoat. The fact is, we ended up with 5 out of 6 lottery picks who turned into role players. How could we have possibly duplicated the Sixers tank with those failure rates?

[yosemiteben]

To be fair, PHI is batting a lot lower than 1/6 on their draft picks.