The Gordon Hayward Thread

[BeesWax]

Well of course they're going to ask for the moon, but if we even give them anything close to that id be irate. Im not even sure Id include Zeller in a sign and trade, and including Vonleh would just be downright stupid

Oh I would be there with you. At least he isn't trying to move MKG to do it. That would be insane. I hope. Henderson goes out too so we can still have cap room to bring back McRoberts. Kemba/Hayward/MKG/McRoberts/big Al is a very good looking lineup in the east and we don't have the head case to try to deal with.

Now that I think about it I don't want Zeller going anywhere. Give them a first rounder and a solid expiring like Neal and be done with it.

What is the going rate for sign and trades on restricted free agents? Im kind of hoping that after our meeting with Hayward he will tell Utah that he doesn't even wish to play for them anymore and just to let him go, but hes too classy to do that, and they would probably tell him to F off

I think he might tell them that behind closed doors so they know to make a deal. They won't want a pissed off expensive player like Eric Gordon playing for them. Every injury recovery is slow and it becomes about the player and not the team.

I have no idea what it will take but I thought a protected first, Zeller and Henderson should be close. With that move we can bring back McRoberts or another starter at PF and be ready with a very good starting lineup.

[BlackOutBuzz]

I actually wonder if our meeting with him is the result of advanced discussions with Utah. There have been reports that we're more interested in trades, but suddenly we're gonna shell out a big deal to a RFA? I'm just saying that - maybe - we're already on the cusp of something with the Jazz, but now we need to reach an agreement on compensation for Hayward.

Or maybe lack of news just has me anxious.

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[Liver_Pooty]

I actually wonder if our meeting with him is the result of advanced discussions with Utah. There have been reports that we're more interested in trades, but suddenly we're gonna shell out a big deal to a RFA? I'm just saying that - maybe - we're already on the cusp of something with the Jazz, but now we need to reach an agreement on compensation for Hayward.

Or maybe lack of news just has me anxious.

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Well he already had a meeting with the Cavs, and they were on the cusp of offering him a max deal but didn't. They were scared Utah would match. But then again why would they be scared? If they match they don't get him, but its not like they're giving up any assets or anything.

[MasterIchiro]

I actually wonder if our meeting with him is the result of advanced discussions with Utah. There have been reports that we're more interested in trades, but suddenly we're gonna shell out a big deal to a RFA? I'm just saying that - maybe - we're already on the cusp of something with the Jazz, but now we need to reach an agreement on compensation for Hayward.

Or maybe lack of news just has me anxious.

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There was a real delay in there between July 1st and the today's announcement and you figure Hayward's been getting texts from Al for weeks maybe and you figure the Jazz front office knows all this. The Jazz today also just added Steve Novak who makes 7.2 million. They drafted Exum + Hood in advance of this free agency.

I don't think you're imagining things.

[MasterIchiro]

I actually wonder if our meeting with him is the result of advanced discussions with Utah. There have been reports that we're more interested in trades, but suddenly we're gonna shell out a big deal to a RFA? I'm just saying that - maybe - we're already on the cusp of something with the Jazz, but now we need to reach an agreement on compensation for Hayward.

Or maybe lack of news just has me anxious.

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Well he already had a meeting with the Cavs, and they were on the cusp of offering him a max deal but didn't. They were scared Utah would match. But then again why would they be scared? If they match they don't get him, but its not like they're giving up any assets or anything.

It's weird they invited him over then didn't offer. It's almost like they were further behind us in their plan. 1) Less attractive trade proposal 2) Not clear on Lebron 3) combination of both.

[Liver_Pooty]

I actually wonder if our meeting with him is the result of advanced discussions with Utah. There have been reports that we're more interested in trades, but suddenly we're gonna shell out a big deal to a RFA? I'm just saying that - maybe - we're already on the cusp of something with the Jazz, but now we need to reach an agreement on compensation for Hayward.

Or maybe lack of news just has me anxious.

Sent from my QMV7A using RealGM Forums mobile app

Well he already had a meeting with the Cavs, and they were on the cusp of offering him a max deal but didn't. They were scared Utah would match. But then again why would they be scared? If they match they don't get him, but its not like they're giving up any assets or anything.

It's weird they invited him over then didn't offer. It's almost like they were further behind us in their plan. 1) Less attractive trade proposal 2) Not clear on Lebron 3) combination of both.

I think it was more Lebron than anything. Almost as if they had the contract ready for him, but are still holding out for Lebron.

[EwingSweatsALot]

His inconsistency with his shooting is still a concern for me.

One poster mentioned earlier that his first year and this past year are outliers. I can agree with that, I can agree with the reasonings as well(not enough minutes first year and the main guy this past year). The two middle years(a small sample size, I know) still are inconsistent and the variance of the middle years are still pretty big.

I am not a math whiz, but I do enjoy it, and looking at the variance and standard deviation(even of just the middle two years) leaves a wide margin. Even wider considering the four years, the first and last year still have some basis for what he can be.

At his best it seems he can be a top 10 shooting guard in FG%, 2P%, AND 3P%. At his worst, it can just be top 30. Now his eFG% is just plain awful no matter what. Not even top 30 at his possible best and worst.

His worst is a part of him, it is in him. That has the ability to manifest in his game just as much as the best of him. That wide of a gap in his game even for the middle two years, the non outliers, is really concerning and has me not wanting to give him a max deal or giving up what some of these proposed trades would be.

He is an upgrade at our position because Henderson is so bad, but we need his best at at least 85% of the time to warrant a max, and his inconsistency dating back to college doesn't make him worth that money.

[Liver_Pooty]

His inconsistency with his shooting is still a concern for me.

One poster mentioned earlier that his first year and this past year are outliers. I can agree with that, I can agree with the reasonings as well(not enough minutes first year and the main guy this past year). The two middle years(a small sample size, I know) still are inconsistent and the variance of the middle years are still pretty big.

I am not a math whiz, but I do enjoy it, and looking at the variance and standard deviation(even of just the middle two years) leaves a wide margin. Even wider considering the four years, the first and last year still have some basis for what he can be.

At his best it seems he can be a top 10 shooting guard in FG%, 2P%, AND 3P%. At his worst, it can just be top 30. Now his eFG% is just plain awful no matter what. Not even top 30 at his possible best and worst.

His worst is a part of him, it is in him. That has the ability to manifest in his game just as much as the best of him. That wide of a gap in his game even for the middle two years, the non outliers, is really concerning and has me not wanting to give him a max deal or giving up what some of these proposed trades would be.

He is an upgrade at our position because Henderson is so bad, but we need his best at at least 85% of the time to warrant a max, and his inconsistency dating back to college doesn't make him worth that money.

I don't think hes worth the max, but we have to overpay for free agents, and he hasn't hit his prime yet. Is he a first option? Absolutely not, and thats why his shooting went down big time this past year. Teams just zero'd in on him. Who else was going to score? Favors? Burke? Burks had a pretty good year for Utah, and they are high as hell on him there (and they should be, I wanted us to draft him) but Hayward would excel here immensely. I could see him averaging 19,5,5 for us on very good shooting percentages.

[Elden Payton]

Hayward is a #3 option, signing him to the max AND giving up assets for him is shortsighted and will hurt us longterm.

He's a good player, but I hope he's a good player somewhere else.

In regards to having to overpay in free agency, that is a fallacy imo, if we scout right and target the right talent, we can get the right guys for the right prices.

[MasterIchiro]

Is our front office oblivious that Utah will match any offer? How can they be? If the public knows, then they also know. So knowing the Jazz will match any offer, why invest the time courting him at this stage (rather than bring in Lance) unless you've made tangible progress on a sign & trade proposal? If discussions with Utah have been unproductive or not positive enough, then we should be scheduling a visit with Lance. The fact they've made Hayward their top priority could be telling, no? Lance doesn't have the same obstacles because the Pacers can't block any move.

[MasterIchiro]

What I'm saying is, Cho must have talked with the Jazz and should be currently talking with them. You can't just pretend they don't exist given they control the player, not us. I don't think pricing them out is a realistic strategy at all.

[ARHornet]

I like Hayward a lot. But it would be pretty frustrating if we give key assets and have to significantly overpay for him.

[MasterIchiro]

I like Hayward a lot. But it would be pretty frustrating if we give key assets and have to significantly overpay for him.

As long as we give up key liabilities in addition to the assets I'm fine with it. If MKG goes out, Henderson should be attached to him. We should have never signed Henderson in the first place.

I figure if we pay Hayward 14 million and send out Henderson you have to consider his salary more like 8 million after subtracting Henderson.

Hayward at 8 million is a nice return for MKG at 5 million.

[ARHornet]

I like Hayward a lot. But it would be pretty frustrating if we give key assets and have to significantly overpay for him.

As long as we give up key liabilities in addition to the assets I'm fine with it. If MKG goes out, Henderson should be attached to him. We should have never signed Henderson in the first place.

I figure if we pay Hayward 14 million and send out Henderson you have to consider his salary more like 8 million after subtracting Henderson.

Hayward at 8 million is a nice return for MKG at 5 million.

I figure we'll be overpaying Hayward regardless so I can live with that as long as we don't give him the max or something close to it.

I do agree with you in that if we could send out a guy like Hendo that would be great. And I can live with dealing a 1st and maybe even Zeller or Biz. But if we lose MKG I'll be pretty upset.

[BobsBuddy]

I hope it's a S+T ivolving Hendo and 2015 1st only.Thats a great deal for Hayward. If we have to add Zellar than maybe they will give us 2015 2nd Round pick and John Lucas as a 3rd point guard option?

[JMAC3]

My thoughts on Hayward are I think he is a great player and would fit into our offense perfectly. He can be a secondary ballhandler, cuts off the ball well, moves the ball on offense, can be a go to scorer on the wing, an above average outside shooter, high basketball IQ, good defensive effort, and a good culture guy.

He is not a number one option on a championship team, but as a 2nd or 3rd option I think you really have something special. If we signed him Big Al, Kemba and Hayward would be a really good scoring threesome. Then hopefully Zeller or Vonleh become a reliable and Hairston develops into a dangerous 6th man.

I do not think the Jazz want to give Gordon the Max, because no team really wants to. However, he is one of the top talents on the market and I would rather overpay a million then to come away with PJ Tucker. I think the Jazz are using a scare tactic in order to avoid any team even offering it. Why are they being so public about matching any offer? what is the point in that? How do they benefit?

At least call their bluff and make them put their money where there mouth is. If nobody does then Hayward will end up signing for way less with Jazz after everyone is too scared to make an offer and he will sign a 4 year 39 million dollar contract and we will all be like WTF.

Worst case scenario is we offer what we think he is worth and Jazz match, we control what they pay him basically and then we move on to a new player. Best case is they were bluffing and we come away with our guy for the price we want.

Lastly, there is no way I am giving up MKG for Hayward. Hayward is a great player, but the Jazz may not even be willing to pay Hayward that type of money given where their team is in the rebuild. Why would we give away a starter and possibly picks??? The only thing I would offer them would be Henderson and possibly Biz.

Also, does anybody even take into account where Gordon wants to play? He is the free agent, maybe he tells the Jazz he does not want to play for a rebuilding team for the next 3 years and sees opportunity for him to be seen in the playoffs and a bigger market. Maybe he really likes the idea of playing with Big Al again and a point guard who can get him more open looks than Trey Burke.

I think the out of the teams that are interested in him... Jazz, Cleveland, Boston, Charlotte, and Phoenix.

I do not see the appeal of going to Boston, other than reuniting with Brad Stevens. I would stay away from Cavs mess. Phoenix is interesting because he is close to Hornacek and they are a young exciting team. Jazz are what he knows and maybe he wants to continue the rebuild. The Hornets offer him the ability to compete for a top seed in East, play with Big Al, develop a relationship with Jordan, and still get paid.

[ARHornet]

I honestly think we are the best fit for Hayward. I just don't see a realistic scenario in which he comes here.

[Hornet Mania]

If the price for Hayward is more than Hendo+1st (along with the assumed small-market overpay) it will be a lateral move at best, imo. He's a nice piece but I wouldn't put his value higher than MKG or Zeller+1st. I'd much rather see the team be patient. We've got a very young roster, loads of cap space to facilitate trades and reason to believe the team can improve simply through internal player development in the worst case scenario. You don't want to blow your stockpile of assets unless it's a sure-thing, Hayward is intriguing but not a sure-fire piece to build a winner around.

Too many squads who get their first taste of winning following years of mediocrity dive into the deep end the following summer on a questionable prospect and unnecessarily lower their potential ceiling. I think if we make a splash by sending over MKG+Hendo, or Zeller+1st for Hayward it will at best be akin to what the Nuggets did when they traded for Kenyon Martin all those years ago. He would be a nice piece, solid starter, and we'd probably even be an improved team in playoff seeding but at the end of the day we would be more likely to top out as second-round fodder.

[fatlever]

welcome to the board hornet mania

[Eoghan]

Here is my concern about Hayward.

Can he play SG full time? B/c he seems a bit slow for that. I'm the same guy that thought MKG and McDermott could coexist on the wings but the prevailing thought was that Clifford would stubbornly play MKG as a SF only and if he views Hayward as a SF only then that means Hendo and Hayward at SG & SF and that doesn't seem like it would make us that much better, especially with how much we're going to have to give up to get him.