#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

[BeesWax]

We are currently the 28th ranked offense (91.7 OffRtg) and the 5th ranked defense (94.2 DefRtg)

Cody Zeller is currently our biggest offensive & defensive difference maker with a 102.4 OffRtg to a 87.1 DefRtg compared to Marvin Williams being the 2nd to worst in both categories (83.5 OffRtg, 99.7 DefRtg, -16.2 NetRtg)

So far based on advanced stats, our worst contributors are our new acquisitions (excluding Lance Stephenson). Marvin Williams, Brian Roberts, and Jason Maxiell have the worst defensive & net ratings on the team

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612766 ... /advanced/

I get different using basketball reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHO/2015.html

It has per 100 possessions ORtg and DRtg and Williams is fine there but Maxiell is god awful.

BK-Ref's off and def ratings, unfortunately, aren't to be trusted.

None are because they all slant them any way they want. They are more team based on BBR that other places based strictly off points scored or given up per 100 possessions.

Maxiell provides no offense and no defense and that you can tell just by watching. He is slower and just plain old now. Biz could very easily cause a 4 or 6 point swing by playing the 12 minutes Maxiell plays by both rebounding and defending the rim better.

[mrknowitall215]

We are currently the 28th ranked offense (91.7 OffRtg) and the 5th ranked defense (94.2 DefRtg)

Cody Zeller is currently our biggest offensive & defensive difference maker with a 102.4 OffRtg to a 87.1 DefRtg compared to Marvin Williams being the 2nd to worst in both categories (83.5 OffRtg, 99.7 DefRtg, -16.2 NetRtg)

So far based on advanced stats, our worst contributors are our new acquisitions (excluding Lance Stephenson). Marvin Williams, Brian Roberts, and Jason Maxiell have the worst defensive & net ratings on the team

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612766 ... /advanced/

I get different using basketball reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHO/2015.html

It has per 100 possessions ORtg and DRtg and Williams is fine there but Maxiell is god awful.

'LamarMatic7' taught me a while ago that BK-Ref's offensive & defensive ratings are off, and ever since then I've been using NBA.com's advanced stats

[BeesWax]

We are currently the 28th ranked offense (91.7 OffRtg) and the 5th ranked defense (94.2 DefRtg)

Cody Zeller is currently our biggest offensive & defensive difference maker with a 102.4 OffRtg to a 87.1 DefRtg compared to Marvin Williams being the 2nd to worst in both categories (83.5 OffRtg, 99.7 DefRtg, -16.2 NetRtg)

So far based on advanced stats, our worst contributors are our new acquisitions (excluding Lance Stephenson). Marvin Williams, Brian Roberts, and Jason Maxiell have the worst defensive & net ratings on the team

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612766 ... /advanced/

I get different using basketball reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHO/2015.html

It has per 100 possessions ORtg and DRtg and Williams is fine there but Maxiell is god awful.

'LamarMatic7' taught me a while ago that BK-Ref's offensive & defensive ratings are off, and ever since then I've been using NBA.com's advanced stats

I don't trust any of them all that much.

[mrknowitall215]

Whether if it's BK-Ref or NBA.com, both show Maxiell to be awful

[MasterIchiro]

Look we have a good coach and the answers to our problems are on our roster. It won't be long before he figures out how to maximize that talent.

[HornetJail]

Look we have a good coach and the answers to our problems are on our roster. It won't be long before he figures out how to maximize that talent.

It took him a little while last season as well. Our January-April success coincided with Ben Gordon racking up DNPs and CDR and Tolliver receiving playing time after Gordon stank it up long enough. Maxiell will be this year's Ben Gordon. Bismack and PJ will be this years' Tolliver and CDR.

[LamarMatic7]

I get different using basketball reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHO/2015.html

It has per 100 possessions ORtg and DRtg and Williams is fine there but Maxiell is god awful.

'LamarMatic7' taught me a while ago that BK-Ref's offensive & defensive ratings are off, and ever since then I've been using NBA.com's advanced stats

I don't trust any of them all that much.

How can you not trust nba.com? They count up the actual possessions unlike bk-ref which only uses an algorithm. Morever, they have freaking cameras in their possession tracking every damn thing on the court.

[Liver_Pooty]

'LamarMatic7' taught me a while ago that BK-Ref's offensive & defensive ratings are off, and ever since then I've been using NBA.com's advanced stats

I don't trust any of them all that much.

How can you not trust nba.com? They count up the actual possessions unlike bk-ref which only uses an algorithm. Morever, they have freaking cameras in their possession tracking every damn thing on the court.

Agreed.
Edit: Zellers stats analytically are insanely good right now. Rich Cho must be having an orgasm seeing this

[catch20two]

He just don't like the way nba.com stats make Messy Marv look. Lol

[BeesWax]

'LamarMatic7' taught me a while ago that BK-Ref's offensive & defensive ratings are off, and ever since then I've been using NBA.com's advanced stats

I don't trust any of them all that much.

How can you not trust nba.com? They count up the actual possessions unlike bk-ref which only uses an algorithm. Morever, they have freaking cameras in their possession tracking every damn thing on the court.

One it means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things and two I am not 100% sure that NBA.com is accurate all the time with who is on the court. I have seen box score errors in the past where they say someone played who didn't. They may be slightly better than someone else but nothing is fool proof when you are counting things like this.

ORtg and DRtg are fairly worthless in the grand scheme because they are so influenced by who you are playing with and against. One player can do nothing positive and end up with good ratings while another dominates but the rest of the guys let him down. Right now if you flopped Zeller and Williams in their spots their ratings would likely take a huge swing the opposite directions. With the starters playing so poorly as a whole anyone at the PF spot, our weakest spot, would take a hit. Once Kemba, Lance and Al learn to play together we will be in business.

[BeesWax]

He just don't like the way nba.com stats make Messy Marv look. Lol

No Messy 22 don't like that Marvin hasn't been close to our problems.

[BeesWax]

I don't trust any of them all that much.

How can you not trust nba.com? They count up the actual possessions unlike bk-ref which only uses an algorithm. Morever, they have freaking cameras in their possession tracking every damn thing on the court.

Agreed.
Edit: Zellers stats analytically are insanely good right now. Rich Cho must be having an orgasm seeing this

For all the grief Marvin is getting both have been solid at PF. The numbers are very similar when you take only the ones they can influence. They are shooting at similar clips as well as rebounding and assist numbers. Going into the season this was our biggest question yet we seem to be getting solid production here and our questions have moved elsewhere.

[BeesWax]

'LamarMatic7' taught me a while ago that BK-Ref's offensive & defensive ratings are off, and ever since then I've been using NBA.com's advanced stats

I don't trust any of them all that much.

How can you not trust nba.com? They count up the actual possessions unlike bk-ref which only uses an algorithm. Morever, they have freaking cameras in their possession tracking every damn thing on the court.

Have you read the algorithm? It is actually pretty solid because it accounts for what you do while on the court. NBA.com uses the number of points scored by the team while the player is on the court. This means you have to do nothing and you can look good. Put Biz on the court for all his possessions with Durant and Lebron on the same team and he would look like he was an offensive force with NBA.com stats but BBR holds players to a higher standard and makes them participate in the plays. It is a tricky algorithm but it would be a better judge of a what a player actually does while out there vs what the team does. The ORtg is easier to calculate than the DRtg on BBR due to the estimate of turnovers forced and who forced them. Bad passes and etc. that end a possession but gets no player credit. All in all like I said none are great references but if you want to look at an individuals contribution to what happens BBR would give a better feel than NBA.com.

[LamarMatic7]

I don't trust any of them all that much.

How can you not trust nba.com? They count up the actual possessions unlike bk-ref which only uses an algorithm. Morever, they have freaking cameras in their possession tracking every damn thing on the court.

Have you read the algorithm? It is actually pretty solid because it accounts for what you do while on the court. NBA.com uses the number of points scored by the team while the player is on the court. This means you have to do nothing and you can look good. Put Biz on the court for all his possessions with Durant and Lebron on the same team and he would look like he was an offensive force with NBA.com stats but BBR holds players to a higher standard and makes them participate in the plays. It is a tricky algorithm but it would be a better judge of a what a player actually does while out there vs what the team does. The ORtg is easier to calculate than the DRtg on BBR due to the estimate of turnovers forced and who forced them. Bad passes and etc. that end a possession but gets no player credit. All in all like I said none are great references but if you want to look at an individuals contribution to what happens BBR would give a better feel than NBA.com.

Yeah, I have. It is complicated to a fault anyway. Just look at Biz's ORtg last year.

Heck, I even have asked one of the BK-Ref guys about this and he admitted that their system has flaws and NBA.com has more trustworthy data.

[LamarMatic7]

One it means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things and two I am not 100% sure that NBA.com is accurate all the time with who is on the court. I have seen box score errors in the past where they say someone played who didn't. They may be slightly better than someone else but nothing is fool proof when you are counting things like this.

For what it's worth, I have to admit that I hate most things about nba.com and have used ESPN for years . Their stats page is top-notch though.

ORtg and DRtg are fairly worthless in the grand scheme because they are so influenced by who you are playing with and against. One player can do nothing positive and end up with good ratings while another dominates but the rest of the guys let him down. Right now if you flopped Zeller and Williams in their spots their ratings would likely take a huge swing the opposite directions. With the starters playing so poorly as a whole anyone at the PF spot, our weakest spot, would take a hit. Once Kemba, Lance and Al learn to play together we will be in business.

Now this discussion has taken off in a whole different direction. Not arguing with you about the value of ORtg or Drtg.

Either way, there are plenty of tools (line-up stats, specific on/off stats for Player X being on and Player Y being off, etc.) for you to decide on your own on what to believe in ORtg and Drtg and what not to.

[BeesWax]

How can you not trust nba.com? They count up the actual possessions unlike bk-ref which only uses an algorithm. Morever, they have freaking cameras in their possession tracking every damn thing on the court.

Have you read the algorithm? It is actually pretty solid because it accounts for what you do while on the court. NBA.com uses the number of points scored by the team while the player is on the court. This means you have to do nothing and you can look good. Put Biz on the court for all his possessions with Durant and Lebron on the same team and he would look like he was an offensive force with NBA.com stats but BBR holds players to a higher standard and makes them participate in the plays. It is a tricky algorithm but it would be a better judge of a what a player actually does while out there vs what the team does. The ORtg is easier to calculate than the DRtg on BBR due to the estimate of turnovers forced and who forced them. Bad passes and etc. that end a possession but gets no player credit. All in all like I said none are great references but if you want to look at an individuals contribution to what happens BBR would give a better feel than NBA.com.

Yeah, I have. It is complicated to a fault anyway. Just look at Biz's ORtg last year.

Heck, I even have asked one of the BK-Ref guys about this and he admitted that their system has flaws and NBA.com has more trustworthy data.

They all have flaws. NBA.com has issues with not being anywhere near player specific. It just accounts for what is done when a player is on the floor. The player could be curled up hurt under his own basket while his team scores a breakaway and he gets credit. There is no great way to do anything but I like BBR because it actually tries to take whether or not a player does something into account. They could likely make it better by simplifying it a bit but at least they give the effort.

[LamarMatic7]

Have you read the algorithm? It is actually pretty solid because it accounts for what you do while on the court. NBA.com uses the number of points scored by the team while the player is on the court. This means you have to do nothing and you can look good. Put Biz on the court for all his possessions with Durant and Lebron on the same team and he would look like he was an offensive force with NBA.com stats but BBR holds players to a higher standard and makes them participate in the plays. It is a tricky algorithm but it would be a better judge of a what a player actually does while out there vs what the team does. The ORtg is easier to calculate than the DRtg on BBR due to the estimate of turnovers forced and who forced them. Bad passes and etc. that end a possession but gets no player credit. All in all like I said none are great references but if you want to look at an individuals contribution to what happens BBR would give a better feel than NBA.com.

Yeah, I have. It is complicated to a fault anyway. Just look at Biz's ORtg last year.

Heck, I even have asked one of the BK-Ref guys about this and he admitted that their system has flaws and NBA.com has more trustworthy data.

They all have flaws. NBA.com has issues with not being anywhere near player specific. It just accounts for what is done when a player is on the floor. The player could be curled up hurt under his own basket while his team scores a breakaway and he gets credit. There is no great way to do anything but I like BBR because it actually tries to take whether or not a player does something into account. They could likely make it better by simplifying it a bit but at least they give the effort.

If you have any problems with that, there's more than enough other data for you not to make conclusions based on ORtg and DRtg. At the end of the day, rarely do we make conclusions about a player solely based on it anyway so it kind of is besides the point.

[BeesWax]

Yeah, I have. It is complicated to a fault anyway. Just look at Biz's ORtg last year.

Heck, I even have asked one of the BK-Ref guys about this and he admitted that their system has flaws and NBA.com has more trustworthy data.

They all have flaws. NBA.com has issues with not being anywhere near player specific. It just accounts for what is done when a player is on the floor. The player could be curled up hurt under his own basket while his team scores a breakaway and he gets credit. There is no great way to do anything but I like BBR because it actually tries to take whether or not a player does something into account. They could likely make it better by simplifying it a bit but at least they give the effort.

If you have any problems with that, there's more than enough other data for you not to make conclusions based on ORtg and DRtg. At the end of the day, rarely do we make conclusions about a player solely based on it anyway so it kind of is besides the point.

I know and I did not bring up the DRtg and ORtg in the topic. I was just pointing out there are multiple ways to look at it and both have huge flaws in them. I looked more at the regular advanced stats which show Maxiell is awful and Zeller and Williams are about the same and the least of our current worries.

[GoBobs]

Clifford is a joke. Biyombo played great last year but Clifford didn't recognize it by giving the guy more time. This year he won't even give him a chance. I knew there was a problem when MKG sat the entire 4th in the final game of the playoffs last year. Clifford doesn't place enough value on defensive players.

We are Kemba missing a shot or Middleton hitting a last second, but totally open, three point shot from being 0-3 right now.

The offense cannot just be about Al Jefferson. It is great when he has it going, but he doesn't have it going every night. We have to be willing to go to other guys if they have it going. When we play the bucks our first option should be who ever Parker is guarding. Right now we have the most predictable offense in the league.

[yosemiteben]

Clifford is a joke.

Great way to start a post if you want the board to collectively discount the rest of your opinion.