ImageImage

Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread

Moderators: yosemiteben, fatlever, JDR720, Diop, BigSlam

User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 21,916
And1: 15,192
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: Borrego's Future 

Post#621 » by yosemiteben » Thu Mar 10, 2022 3:00 am

luciano-davidwesley wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
luciano-davidwesley wrote:You don't think it is at least plausable his future is in question? Also not sure why the Gustapo are out merging my poll of whether he should be fired or not into this thread.

In question, as in might not work out long term? Sure. But he's not getting fired this off-season after we just extended him.

My guess is it was a two year extension ("Multi year" with no specifics) and boy we could be in for a bad time if the franchise is not willing to cut bait over a few million dollars a year for a coach. We literally waived and stretched $27 million on one roster spot last year. WTF lol

Ah yes, let's just guess at what the terms were and then compare it to cutting Batum's last year to sign Gordo. Two completely different scenarios.

I get you don't like him. I'm not saying you should. I'm saying he's not getting fired.
User avatar
luciano-davidwesley
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 7,869
And1: 2,653
Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Location: Gold Coast
Contact:
   

Re: Borrego's Future 

Post#622 » by luciano-davidwesley » Thu Mar 10, 2022 3:03 am

yosemiteben wrote:
luciano-davidwesley wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:In question, as in might not work out long term? Sure. But he's not getting fired this off-season after we just extended him.

My guess is it was a two year extension ("Multi year" with no specifics) and boy we could be in for a bad time if the franchise is not willing to cut bait over a few million dollars a year for a coach. We literally waived and stretched $27 million on one roster spot last year. WTF lol

Ah yes, let's just guess at what the terms were and then compare it to cutting Batum's last year to sign Gordo. Two completely different scenarios.

I get you don't like him. I'm not saying you should. I'm saying he's not getting fired.

I don't think you are in a position to substantially come to that conclusion. We are talking somewhere between $5-10 million max depending on contract size and length. You really think a team would consign themselves to two written off years for that (relative to an NBA owner) small chunk of change?
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,146
And1: 14,875
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#623 » by fatlever » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:30 am

jb is bottom 3 paid coach in league
Hornet Mania
General Manager
Posts: 8,912
And1: 8,401
Joined: Jul 05, 2014
Location: Dornbirn, Austria
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#624 » by Hornet Mania » Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:59 pm

Very little chance JB gets canned this year unless the team somehow nosedives so bad they miss the play-in altogether.

I do think his seat is going to be hot at the beginning of next season. I know our roster is imperfect but the brand of basketball we've seen since the beginning of February has been simply embarrassing. I love what has been done in terms of player development but at some point that has to translate to wins, I think next year is that red line.
User avatar
amcoolio
Hornets Forum John Hancock
Posts: 17,551
And1: 9,909
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
Location: Servant to lord Bargnani
   

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#625 » by amcoolio » Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:21 pm

You guys are also missing what the players think. It's entirely possible that during exit interviews there isn't much confidence in the staff and they are canned. Sometimes coaches just get tuned out and a change is needed. When defensive ratings are this bad that is usually the case...shows a lack of effort and apathy
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,146
And1: 14,875
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#626 » by fatlever » Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:34 pm

I think the front office will get rid of JB in a millisecond if they think the relationship is damaged with lamelo and therefore threatens the ability to keep lamelo long-term.



Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app
Splitta
Sophomore
Posts: 215
And1: 174
Joined: Oct 25, 2018

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#627 » by Splitta » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:04 pm

I don't really understand where JB has been good at player development. He has actually been horrible. Monk is a good example and Bouknight is the new Monk to JB. What has he done to develop Richards, Jones, and Thor. Bouknight and Thor actually helped win a couple of games during the covid outbreak but immediately went back to the doghouse. So now he wants more veteran presence and MK gets him Harrell and Thomas and neither move the needle anymore than using the young guys. I don't even know the asst coaches names and he is in over his head as a head coach. Poor x and o coach and the 0 and 7 OT record tells us that. He should have hired an ex head coach as an assistant and maybe will if he keeps his job. He seems to have lost his team and should be fired if the team does not have a major turnaround this year. Just my opinion.
Chapelchilla
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,660
And1: 1,157
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
         

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#628 » by Chapelchilla » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:17 pm

Unless Miles and Melo want him gone I don't either. Bringing in a vet asst to handle the D and some tactical stuff is a good idea though.

As for this comment - "Monk is a good example and Bouknight is the new Monk to JB." I do not think you can blame the head coach for a rookie contract guy going on coke benders and not working his butt off to improve his game in the off season. Miles, Terry, Melo, Jones and Richards have all gotten better here.
User avatar
BigSlam
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 51,164
And1: 8,360
Joined: Jul 01, 2005

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#629 » by BigSlam » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:25 pm

Splitta wrote:He should have hired an ex head coach as an assistant and maybe will if he keeps his job.

An ex head coach like a Jay Triano perhaps?
B B M F 'ers
User avatar
Liver_Pooty
RealGM
Posts: 40,504
And1: 16,488
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
   

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#630 » by Liver_Pooty » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:51 pm

BigSlam wrote:
Splitta wrote:He should have hired an ex head coach as an assistant and maybe will if he keeps his job.

An ex head coach like a Jay Triano perhaps?


Yeah Triano is highly regarded as an assistant around the league as well as the coach of the Canadian national team. He had a rough stint in Toronto but he's a damn good assistant.
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,146
And1: 14,875
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#631 » by fatlever » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:09 pm

Player dev successes
Devontae
Miles
Cody m
Jalen mcd
Monk (you are confusing monk under cliff vs jb. He improved at after jb took over)
Terry (look as his shooting now)
Caleb m

Neutral
Melo
Pj
Nick

Failed
Vern
Riler

TBD
Bouk
Thor
Lewis
Kai

Some of these were simply dumb picks by Mitch. Not jbs fault. Still convinced bouk was a terrible pick, as I said during summer.

Plenty other reasons to can jb though.

If he does stay, new assistants should be hired.



Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,146
And1: 14,875
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#632 » by fatlever » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:11 pm

If Gordo stays healthy we are in 7th place. He fixes many of our problems.

Can't blame jb for Mason at center. That's on mitch.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app
KembaWalker
RealGM
Posts: 11,749
And1: 13,417
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
 

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#633 » by KembaWalker » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:32 pm

Jay Hernandez is the reason our guys develop. if we fire JB, we need to keep him
head coaches don't do crap for development, JB aint out there running guys in their individual drills, tracking improvement plans etc
Image
User avatar
luciano-davidwesley
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 7,869
And1: 2,653
Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Location: Gold Coast
Contact:
   

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#634 » by luciano-davidwesley » Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:45 pm

fatlever wrote:Player dev successes
Devontae
Miles
Cody m
Jalen mcd
Monk (you are confusing monk under cliff vs jb. He improved at after jb took over)
Terry (look as his shooting now)
Caleb m

Neutral
Melo
Pj
Nick

Failed
Vern
Riler

TBD
Bouk
Thor
Lewis
Kai

Some of these were simply dumb picks by Mitch. Not jbs fault. Still convinced bouk was a terrible pick, as I said during summer.

Plenty other reasons to can jb though.

If he does stay, new assistants should be hired.



Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

I agree with your player development assessments however I will say Caleb Martin was poor for us and seemed to have improved in Miami moreso than here.
User avatar
fatlever
Senior Mod - Hornets
Senior Mod - Hornets
Posts: 58,146
And1: 14,875
Joined: Jun 04, 2001
Location: Terrapin Station
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#635 » by fatlever » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:00 pm

caleb would have been improved for us this yr, to what degree we will never know.
User avatar
MPM
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,157
And1: 3,684
Joined: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Mouse Town
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#636 » by MPM » Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:37 pm

This'll be my first and last JB vent (on non-game threads!). Donning my kevlar for incoming :)

Why JB irks me:

- No accountability culture. He’ll occasionally and gently call a player out and then proceed to do nothing. Rotations largely remain the same. There's a reason why teams like the Heat are eyeing players like PJ. They know their culture can turn guys like him into more consistent performers. (we also need vets to enforce accountability, but that's another topic)

- This ties into roster inflexibility. Be flexible with rotations and matchups to gain advantage. If someone is playing poorly, stoopidly, lazily, yank them. If we need to in-game pivot on matchups (say, having Thor or Martin shadow a hot player for extended minutes), do it.

- System inflexibility – his defense hasn’t worked, doesn’t work, and won’t work. We have two middlingly capable bigs now in Mason and Trez – no need for constant zone, no need to switch everything. I’ve watched us switch all season for zero reason, only to swap a good matchup for a bad. This ties into point 1 above – play more man which would make players more directly accountable for their assignment.

- Cliff-like reluctance to develop prospects on-court (he leaves this to the very capable Jay H.). Thor has played largely out of necessity and has now been cast back into the shadows despite our defensive suckitude. We all know Nick should have been playing much more before Trez. Kai has been tearing it up in the G and can’t even see time during the end minutes of our far too frequent blowout losses. Can't really comment on Bouk - no idea with him. JB insists on running his fixed rotation to the very end of games. I mean does PJ really need to play 42 minutes in a game where you’re down 20 with 3 minutes to go? As mentioned in another thread, even Thibs is developing guys while coaching to win and guys like Ty Lue are riding 12 man rotations (with less talent than us) to winning records.

To wrap - I'm on the record as believing our issues are a mix of JB, FO and players. I'm not 100% JB should be fired. However, I am 100% that making coaching changes is the most quickly correctable of the three, whether this is change in philosophy from the coach himself, or an actual change of coach from the FO.
Splitta
Sophomore
Posts: 215
And1: 174
Joined: Oct 25, 2018

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#637 » by Splitta » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:45 pm

MPM wrote:This'll be my first and last JB vent (on non-game threads!). Donning my kevlar for incoming :)

Why JB irks me:

- No accountability culture. He’ll occasionally and gently call a player out and then proceed to do nothing. Rotations largely remain the same. There's a reason why teams like the Heat are eyeing players like PJ. They know their culture can turn guys like him into more consistent performers. (we also need vets to enforce accountability, but that's another topic)

- This ties into roster inflexibility. Be flexible with rotations and matchups to gain advantage. If someone is playing poorly, stoopidly, lazily, yank them. If we need to in-game pivot on matchups (say, having Thor or Martin shadow a hot player for extended minutes), do it.

- System inflexibility – his defense hasn’t worked, doesn’t work, and won’t work. We have two middlingly capable bigs now in Mason and Trez – no need for constant zone, no need to switch everything. I’ve watched us switch all season for zero reason, only to swap a good matchup for a bad. This ties into point 1 above – play more man which would make players more directly accountable for their assignment.

- Cliff-like reluctance to develop prospects on-court (he leaves this to the very capable Jay H.). Thor has played largely out of necessity and has now been cast back into the shadows despite our defensive suckitude. We all know Nick should have been playing much more before Trez. Kai has been tearing it up in the G and can’t even see time during the end minutes of our far too frequent blowout losses. Can't really comment on Bouk - no idea with him. JB insists on running his fixed rotation to the very end of games. I mean does PJ really need to play 42 minutes in a game where you’re down 20 with 3 minutes to go? As mentioned in another thread, even Thibs is developing guys while coaching to win and guys like Ty Lue are riding 12 man rotations (with less talent than us) to winning records.

To wrap - I'm on the record as believing our issues are a mix of JB, FO and players. I'm not 100% JB should be fired. However, I am 100% that making coaching changes is the most quickly correctable of the three, whether this is change in philosophy from the coach himself, or an actual change of coach from the FO.


I agree with your comments which were much better thought out than mine. It does seem that JB has no asst coach in his ear during the game or does not listen to them. It was probably a big mistake by MK to not require that JB hire an ex head coach as his top asst. I think MK is getting a lot of the blame on this board although it appears that he is actually trying to meet JB requests, such as the signing of Harrell and Thomas to help get in the playoffs. I expect MJ has a put a lot of heat on both of them. Not giving the young guys developmental playing time is inexcusable.
User avatar
BigSlam
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 51,164
And1: 8,360
Joined: Jul 01, 2005

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#638 » by BigSlam » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:26 pm

Makes me laugh.

Some posters complain that the roster is too young and that we need to bring in vets.

The FO brings in vets like Trez and Thomas.

Then posters complain that we brought in vets like Trez and Thomas.

Can’t win.
B B M F 'ers
User avatar
luciano-davidwesley
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 7,869
And1: 2,653
Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Location: Gold Coast
Contact:
   

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#639 » by luciano-davidwesley » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:28 pm

BigSlam wrote:Makes me laugh.

Some posters complain that the roster is too young and that we need to bring in vets.

The FO brings in vets like Trez and Thomas.

Then posters complain that we brought in vets like Trez and Thomas.

Can’t win.

Because those vets bring things on the court that are the opposite to the team's weaknesses. It's not that hard to understand.
User avatar
HornetJail
RealGM
Posts: 46,145
And1: 13,888
Joined: Feb 05, 2012
Location: MARK WILLIAMS IS BACK MWUAHAHAHAHA
     

Re: Over The Top: The James Borrego Thread 

Post#640 » by HornetJail » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:28 pm

fatlever wrote:Player dev successes
Devontae
Miles
Cody m
Jalen mcd
Monk (you are confusing monk under cliff vs jb. He improved at after jb took over)
Terry (look as his shooting now)
Caleb m

Neutral
Melo
Pj
Nick

Failed
Vern
Riler

TBD
Bouk
Thor
Lewis
Kai

Some of these were simply dumb picks by Mitch. Not jbs fault. Still convinced bouk was a terrible pick, as I said during summer.

Plenty other reasons to can jb though.

If he does stay, new assistants should be hired.



Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

I don't know how LaMelo isn't a win. Next year will be the biggest test to see if our dev program just allows bad players to become good, or if LaMelo (and Miles for that matter) to find that next gear.

I am for keeping JB through next season for development reasons alone. Someone on our staff is a shooting coach savant, and I want that dude around forever. Just need to add someone to the staff that has heard of defense before.

Our #1 issue is Mitch Kupchak refusing to put together an actual roster in 4 years with us. I don't know how many times I need to say this, but we are going NOWHERE until the center situation is fixed.

It's like trying to play football with 5 backup caliber offensive linemen. The QB, RB, and receiving core can be talented as all hell, but putting a league-worst OL will inevitably lead to failure every single season.

LaMelo, Miles, Terry, and Gordon could play 82 games next year all average 20ppg efficiently, and we still won't win more than ~46 games or get out of the first round if we're rolling out Plumlee for 25-30 minutes, who immensely lowers our potential on both ends of the floor. The hole that Kupchak has absolutely refused to plug has directly wasted two playoff chances. I'd be fine if he was waiting for the right center to come along in the draft, if we hadn't devoted $40M into our cap and devalued our picks this year and last trying to win with Hayward.

I love Kupchak's eye for draft talent, but I have been largely shocked at how bad he's been at building an actual team.
investigate Adam Silver

Return to Charlotte Hornets