Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[MasterIchiro]

But Woj says the hold-up's down to the Hornets trying to rope in a third team. Why go through the trouble instead of going right at Ainge if they have the leverage?

Because Ainge is in denial about losing Hayward for nothing so he doesn't recognize our leverage and he won't acknowledge reality until it happens. If we stretch Batum he's not going to just walk away. The mere suggestion has him playing ball but he's stalling and acting like he has more leverage than he does. The simple math is 27.5 TPE > 9 million stretch. Because you can do more with 27.5 than you can with 9.

So why are we panicked?

Ainge actually gave up leverage letting the Hornets involve a third team. It's the third team who gets to say whether or not this goes down now, Ainge is in a weaker position than he would've been if he only had to care about holding Nic's dead cap over our heads.

Illustrates he's (very slowly) sobering up to the math. 27.5 > 9.

[wilson115]

Ainge actually gave up leverage letting the Hornets involve a third team. It's the third team who gets to say whether or not this goes down now, Ainge is in a weaker position than he would've been if he only had to care about holding Nic's dead cap over our heads.

Illustrates he's (very slowly) sobering up to the math. 27.5 > 9.

Except it's the third team who gets to make demands now. If it's OKC, Presti is already sitting on a big fat TPE. What will it take to make him basically hand it over to Ainge and why did Mitch have to go through the trouble if he already had Ainge dead to rights?

[MasterIchiro]

Ainge actually gave up leverage letting the Hornets involve a third team. It's the third team who gets to say whether or not this goes down now, Ainge is in a weaker position than he would've been if he only had to care about holding Nic's dead cap over our heads.

Illustrates he's (very slowly) sobering up to the math. 27.5 > 9.

Except it's the third team who gets to make demands now. If it's OKC, Presti is already sitting on a big fat TPE. What will it take to make him basically hand it over to Ainge and why did Mitch have to go through the trouble if he already had Ainge dead to rights?

You assume Kupchak didn't talk with Presti first, that Presti just popped out of nowhere.

[wilson115]

Illustrates he's (very slowly) sobering up to the math. 27.5 > 9.

Except it's the third team who gets to make demands now. If it's OKC, Presti is already sitting on a big fat TPE. What will it take to make him basically hand it over to Ainge and why did Mitch have to go through the trouble if he already had Ainge dead to rights?

You assume Kupchak didn't talk with Presti first, that Presti just popped out of nowhere.

I know Presti is in a stronger position than Ainge holding the TPE. You assume as much yourself saying Mitch has Ainge by the neck. Why would Mitch go up against Presti when he could've walked all over Ainge like you said?

[MasterIchiro]

Except it's the third team who gets to make demands now. If it's OKC, Presti is already sitting on a big fat TPE. What will it take to make him basically hand it over to Ainge and why did Mitch have to go through the trouble if he already had Ainge dead to rights?

You assume Kupchak didn't talk with Presti first, that Presti just popped out of nowhere.

I know Presti is in a stronger position than Ainge holding the TPE. You assume as much yourself saying Mitch has Ainge by the neck. Why would Mitch go up against Presti when he could've walked all over Ainge like you said?

I don't assume Presti's not a factor. It's clear he's a player here. My whole point is that this delay is due to Ainge struggling to do math. But both Kupchak and Presti are helping him along.

[DY_nasty]

You assume Kupchak didn't talk with Presti first, that Presti just popped out of nowhere.

I know Presti is in a stronger position than Ainge holding the TPE. You assume as much yourself saying Mitch has Ainge by the neck. Why would Mitch go up against Presti when he could've walked all over Ainge like you said?

I don't assume Presti's not a factor. It's clear he's a player here. My whole point is that this delay is due to Ainge struggling to do math. But both Kupchak and Presti are helping him along.

The delay is due to the both Charlotte and Boston being so inept. If this situation was handled better, they wouldn't be struggling to work out a deal like this in the most rapid paced FA period ever while simultaneously looking for a 3rd team that won't bend both teams over as well.

This is plainly a bad situation that was created by bad judgment and a failure to plan. Its at the point now where anyone who doesn't call it what it is is plainly in denial.

[wilson115]

You assume Kupchak didn't talk with Presti first, that Presti just popped out of nowhere.

I know Presti is in a stronger position than Ainge holding the TPE. You assume as much yourself saying Mitch has Ainge by the neck. Why would Mitch go up against Presti when he could've walked all over Ainge like you said?

I don't assume Presti's not a factor. It's clear he's a player here. My whole point is that this delay is due to Ainge struggling to do math. But both Kupchak and Presti are helping him along.

Except this isn't only about Ainge. It's also Mitch exposing himself to negotiating from a weaker position than he would've—by your own estimation—against Ainge by himself. That begs explaining.

[MasterIchiro]

I know Presti is in a stronger position than Ainge holding the TPE. You assume as much yourself saying Mitch has Ainge by the neck. Why would Mitch go up against Presti when he could've walked all over Ainge like you said?

I don't assume Presti's not a factor. It's clear he's a player here. My whole point is that this delay is due to Ainge struggling to do math. But both Kupchak and Presti are helping him along.

The delay is due to the both Charlotte and Boston being so inept. If this situation was handled better, they wouldn't be struggling to work out a deal like this in the most rapid paced FA period ever while simultaneously looking for a 3rd team that won't bend both teams over as well.

This is plainly a bad situation that was created by bad judgment and a failure to plan. Its at the point now where anyone who doesn't call it what it is is plainly in denial.

Okay. Disagree but okay.

[DY_nasty]

I don't assume Presti's not a factor. It's clear he's a player here. My whole point is that this delay is due to Ainge struggling to do math. But both Kupchak and Presti are helping him along.

The delay is due to the both Charlotte and Boston being so inept. If this situation was handled better, they wouldn't be struggling to work out a deal like this in the most rapid paced FA period ever while simultaneously looking for a 3rd team that won't bend both teams over as well.

This is plainly a bad situation that was created by bad judgment and a failure to plan. Its at the point now where anyone who doesn't call it what it is is plainly in denial.

Okay. Disagree but okay.

If Mitch was anywhere close to the level you described, Batum would've been attached to the Covington/Danny Green carousel that started off free agency - not trying to someone who'll take Batum after all the money across the league has been spent or locked in. Now his best negotiating tool with Boston is to put a financial gun to his head and demand people help us?

Its honestly pathetic.

And what's crazy is, you've unapologetically let your rage boner for Cho run wild for years for FAR less. Stay consistent

[MasterIchiro]

I know Presti is in a stronger position than Ainge holding the TPE. You assume as much yourself saying Mitch has Ainge by the neck. Why would Mitch go up against Presti when he could've walked all over Ainge like you said?

I don't assume Presti's not a factor. It's clear he's a player here. My whole point is that this delay is due to Ainge struggling to do math. But both Kupchak and Presti are helping him along.

Except this isn't only about Ainge. It's also Mitch exposing himself to negotiating from a weaker position than he would've—by your own estimation—against Ainge by himself.

Kupchak removed Ainge's leverage by swooping in and signing a player who will stabilize our rebuild and show our young core we want to win. You underestimate Kupchak if you think he doesn't have flexibility here and sufficient leverage to get a good deal. I don't know why you're keeping score. Kupchak is in a good position. Worst case scenario is not the 9 million stretch for Kupchak, it's Ainge losing Hayward for nothing after reportedly rejecting Myles Turner + Doug McDermott + Pacers 1st. So yeah, perhaps Ainge needs a second GM to help sober him up to his total botching of Hayward after losing Kyrie for nothing and Horford for nothing.

[MasterIchiro]

The delay is due to the both Charlotte and Boston being so inept. If this situation was handled better, they wouldn't be struggling to work out a deal like this in the most rapid paced FA period ever while simultaneously looking for a 3rd team that won't bend both teams over as well.

This is plainly a bad situation that was created by bad judgment and a failure to plan. Its at the point now where anyone who doesn't call it what it is is plainly in denial.

Okay. Disagree but okay.

If Mitch was anywhere close to the level you described, Batum would've been attached to the Covington/Danny Green carousel that started off free agency - not trying to someone who'll take Batum after all the money across the league has been spent or locked in. Now his best negotiating tool with Boston is to put a financial gun to his head and demand people help us?

Its honestly pathetic.

And what's crazy is, you've unapologetically let your rage boner for Cho run wild for years for FAR less. Stay consistent

Okay, disagree but okay. Who signed Batum LOL and who hasn't attached an asset to any of his bad contracts and has MKG signed yet? Where is YMCAPJ? Vonleh and Kaminsky were last to sign in this class, bottom of the barrel.

I'm long and STRONG haus! Lololol

[DY_nasty]

I don't assume Presti's not a factor. It's clear he's a player here. My whole point is that this delay is due to Ainge struggling to do math. But both Kupchak and Presti are helping him along.

Except this isn't only about Ainge. It's also Mitch exposing himself to negotiating from a weaker position than he would've—by your own estimation—against Ainge by himself.

Kupchak removed Ainge's leverage by swooping in and signing a player who will stabilize our rebuild and show our young core we want to win. You underestimate Kupchak if you think he doesn't have flexibility here and sufficient leverage to get a good deal. I don't know why you're keeping score. Kupchak is in a good position. Worst case scenario is not the 9 million stretch for Kupchak, it's Ainge losing Hayward for nothing after reportedly rejecting Myles Turner + Doug McDermott + Pacers 1st. So yeah, perhaps Ainge needs a second GM to help sober him up to his total botching of Hayward after losing Kyrie for nothing and Horford for nothing.

what leverage?

neither boston nor charlotte has any leverage with a third team at this point. the fact that boston lost that potential trade with indiana is a moot point at this stage. boston losing out on those guys has nothing to do what's going on right now.

Hell, if you really want to get into GM's losing stuff for nothing - Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.

But you're not looking at things plainly. You're basically cheerleading for Mitch.

edit: yeah after that last post you're basically proving my point.... if you're going to criticize a GM, keep the same energy across the board. you of all people 'should' be furious but you're not because that would be breaking character

[MasterIchiro]

Except this isn't only about Ainge. It's also Mitch exposing himself to negotiating from a weaker position than he would've—by your own estimation—against Ainge by himself.

Kupchak removed Ainge's leverage by swooping in and signing a player who will stabilize our rebuild and show our young core we want to win. You underestimate Kupchak if you think he doesn't have flexibility here and sufficient leverage to get a good deal. I don't know why you're keeping score. Kupchak is in a good position. Worst case scenario is not the 9 million stretch for Kupchak, it's Ainge losing Hayward for nothing after reportedly rejecting Myles Turner + Doug McDermott + Pacers 1st. So yeah, perhaps Ainge needs a second GM to help sober him up to his total botching of Hayward after losing Kyrie for nothing and Horford for nothing.

what leverage?

neither boston nor charlotte has any leverage with a third team at this point. the fact that boston lost that potential trade with indiana is a moot point at this stage. boston losing out on those guys has nothing to do what's going on right now.

Hell, if you really want to get into GM's losing stuff for nothing - Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.

But you're not looking at things plainly. You're basically cheerleading for Mitch.

We didn't lose Kemba for nothing. Ainge can't move his contract. We can move Rozier's though.

[DY_nasty]

Kupchak removed Ainge's leverage by swooping in and signing a player who will stabilize our rebuild and show our young core we want to win. You underestimate Kupchak if you think he doesn't have flexibility here and sufficient leverage to get a good deal. I don't know why you're keeping score. Kupchak is in a good position. Worst case scenario is not the 9 million stretch for Kupchak, it's Ainge losing Hayward for nothing after reportedly rejecting Myles Turner + Doug McDermott + Pacers 1st. So yeah, perhaps Ainge needs a second GM to help sober him up to his total botching of Hayward after losing Kyrie for nothing and Horford for nothing.

what leverage?

neither boston nor charlotte has any leverage with a third team at this point. the fact that boston lost that potential trade with indiana is a moot point at this stage. boston losing out on those guys has nothing to do what's going on right now.

Hell, if you really want to get into GM's losing stuff for nothing - Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.

But you're not looking at things plainly. You're basically cheerleading for Mitch.

We didn't lose Kemba for nothing. Ainge can't move his contract. We can move Rozier's though.

Read the entire thing.

I said **Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.**

[MasterIchiro]

what leverage?

neither boston nor charlotte has any leverage with a third team at this point. the fact that boston lost that potential trade with indiana is a moot point at this stage. boston losing out on those guys has nothing to do what's going on right now.

Hell, if you really want to get into GM's losing stuff for nothing - Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.

But you're not looking at things plainly. You're basically cheerleading for Mitch.

We didn't lose Kemba for nothing. Ainge can't move his contract. We can move Rozier's though.

Read the entire thing.

I said **Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.**

Are you insinuating the market for Kemba was comparable and Kupchak just ignored it because reasons? Holiday's market is a little different from Kemba's. Supposedly the Mavs were interested in Kemba when they were shopping Dennis Smith Jr. Then the Knicks offered Rozier a contract and their fans want to trade for him now. Too funny!

[DY_nasty]

We didn't lose Kemba for nothing. Ainge can't move his contract. We can move Rozier's though.

Read the entire thing.

I said **Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.**

Are you insinuating the market for Kemba was comparable and Kupchak just ignored it because reasons? Holiday's market is a little different from Kemba's. Supposedly the Mavs were interested in Kemba when they were shopping Dennis Smith Jr. Then the Knicks offered Rozier a contract and their fans want to trade for him now. Too funny!

A little different how? There are contenders and rising teams looking for PGs every year and everyone knew the day was coming where a check would have to get cut in order to keep the guy. We gradually lost all leverage until there was nothing left and we had to be happy to take anything for him.

There isn't a single situation where Kemba for nothing but the right to pay a worse PG is a good deal. NOLA got flexibility AND picks - with time to make the best out of both.

The fact you just say that there were no other options there, but have pages worth of responses as to why Mitch can turn this into a good deal is what I'm talking about. Mitch is what his decisions show he is. If the point at the end of each of your posts is that Mitch can do no wrong, then why even bother entertaining discussion?

[MasterIchiro]

Read the entire thing.

I said **Compare the absolute HAUL that New Orleans got for Jrue compared to what we got for Kemba.**

Are you insinuating the market for Kemba was comparable and Kupchak just ignored it because reasons? Holiday's market is a little different from Kemba's. Supposedly the Mavs were interested in Kemba when they were shopping Dennis Smith Jr. Then the Knicks offered Rozier a contract and their fans want to trade for him now. Too funny!

A little different how?

There isn't a single situation where Kemba for nothing but the right to pay a worse PG is a good deal.

The fact you just say that there were no other options there, but have pages worth of responses as to why Mitch can turn this into a good deal is what I'm talking about. Mitch is what his decisions show he is. If the point at the end of each of your posts is that Mitch can do no wrong, then why even bother entertaining discussion?

I like Hayward. I like Devonte' Graham in the second round as Kemba's PG replacement. I liked Rozier as a placeholder.

Do you want me to trash Kupchak for a mistake? He's earned sufficient goodwill from me from his good moves. But your commentary has given me pause and from now on I will direct my TOTALLY BASELESS GM rage (ie my "Cho boner") against Kupchak should he cross any lines!

[DY_nasty]

Are you insinuating the market for Kemba was comparable and Kupchak just ignored it because reasons? Holiday's market is a little different from Kemba's. Supposedly the Mavs were interested in Kemba when they were shopping Dennis Smith Jr. Then the Knicks offered Rozier a contract and their fans want to trade for him now. Too funny!

A little different how?

There isn't a single situation where Kemba for nothing but the right to pay a worse PG is a good deal.

The fact you just say that there were no other options there, but have pages worth of responses as to why Mitch can turn this into a good deal is what I'm talking about. Mitch is what his decisions show he is. If the point at the end of each of your posts is that Mitch can do no wrong, then why even bother entertaining discussion?

I like Hayward. I like Devonte' Graham in the second round as Kemba's PG replacement. I liked Rozier as a placeholder.

Do you want me to trash Kupchak for a mistake? He's earned sufficient goodwill from me from his good moves. But your commentary has given me pause and from now on I will direct my TOTALLY BASELESS GM rage (ie my "Cho boner") against Kupchak should he cross any lines!

I like those guys too but keep the same energy is all I'm saying.

You can't say Kupchak had a plan when its obvious he didn't. Because like I said earlier - if he was as proactive as you imply, he'd have found a way to attach himself to the Covington/Green moves in efforts to free up cap space or started his own to get Batum, Zeller, or Rozier out and get something for the efforts - instead of hoping that some third team won't bend us over near the end of FA. "Fine, I'll just stretch Batum" is not a negotiating strategy either. Its a bluff that would've been called if there wasn't a massive TPE to jockey for.

I don't even know why you or anyone is focused on Ainge either. The guy may have lost out on some deals here and there but they've still got a ECF finals core to show for it. What are the Hornets doing but setting up another middling team?

edit: and lol, baseless? cmon.... cho wasn't perfect - and neither is mitch. once again, stay consistent.

[yosemiteben]

For the record, I'm with dy on this. I'm not saying Mitch should be fired, but I think he bungled Kemba and I'm not convinced he didn't bungle Hayward / Batum. He may be vindicated on the latter depending on how things ultimately go down.

And we need a permanent scout on the BOS board, they find stuff we don't. Like this:

Read on Twitter

ETA: someone over there posted this trade, which honestly given how this offseason has gone wouldn't truly surprise me:

[DY_nasty]

For the record, I'm with dy on this. I'm not saying Mitch should be fired, but I think he bungled Kemba and I'm not convinced he didn't bungle Hayward / Batum. He may be vindicated on the latter depending on how things ultimately go down.

And we need a permanent scout on the BOS board, they find stuff we don't. Like this:

Read on Twitter

ETA: someone over there posted this trade, which honestly given how this offseason has gone wouldn't truly surprise me:

That trade honestly isn't even that toxic lol